DNA Vs Mormonism

[teancum79]

sense we are on the subject could you grab Paul’s epistle to the Romans I think a hand writing analysis would be useful.

 

[MelanieAnne]

sense we are on the subject could you grab Paul’s epistle to the Romans I think a hand writing analysis would be useful.

There are at least copies of copies handed down from the originals, and in the case of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we have documents 2000 years old confirming the same scriptures we have today (not the Epistle to the Romans, but the point is made.) This gives much more credibility to scriptures maintained with the same discipline. You don’t have to be a scholar to know that, but you do have to have spent at least some time learning about biblical archeology.

This is something you cannot say about the Book of Mormon, where the imaginary golden plates, “translated” in secret by Joseph Smith with the assistance of magic rocks held in the bottom of a hat, which were too heavy for Joseph Smith to carry much less run with, and which have now conveniently disappeared.

The Book of Mormon is clearly a story made up by Joseph Smith. It is not any one thing that renders this conclusion inevitable, but all of the things taken together make for one big preposterous story. The DNA is just one piece. There are many pieces that, taken as a whole, point to the inescapable conclusion.

But you continue to duck the question ~ why does it matter to you? You’re on record as saying even if the Book of Mormon were unequivocally proven to be false, you would stay on the same path. So why attempt to defend the indefensible?

 

[teancum79]

The reason why this topic matters so much to me (aside from the general liking for truth) is that when people spread false information (IE that there is no evidence of the BOM or that science has proven it to be false) it interferes with a persons ability to find out for themselves. Not unlike (though less drastic) policies that forbid the teaching of Christianity in some countries.

If the BoM is such a clear fraud and so contrary to the Bible than people in mass numbers will come to that conclusion on their own without people trying to convince them before ever taking a look at it that its fiction.

 

[teancum79]

I’ve noticed your language regarding the BoM and JS for that matter is quite strong. What are you afraid of?

The position of the Church is quite clear. Ask God if it is right.

 

[MelanieAnne]

The reason why this topic matters so much to me (aside from the general liking for truth) is that when people spread false information (IE that there is no evidence of the BOM or that science has proven it to be false) it interferes with a persons ability to find out for themselves. Not unlike (though less drastic) policies that forbid the teaching of Christianity in some countries.

If the BoM is such a clear fraud and so contrary to the Bible than people in mass numbers will come to that conclusion on their own without people trying to convince them before ever taking a look at it that its fiction.

I can understand that. I support the idea that people need to be given the truth and then decide for themselves. Good decisions are made based on good information. Poor decisions almost always involve inadequate or false information. So truth is important.

But don’t your missionaries have a responsibility to hold to the same standard? And yet they clearly do not because they hide a lot of the more problematic information from inquirers. That alone calls doctrine into question when it needs to be hidden from potential converts.

 

[teancum79]

I can understand that. I support the idea that people need to be given the truth and then decide for themselves. Good decisions are made based on good information. Poor decisions almost always involve inadequate or false information. So truth is important.

But don’t your missionaries have a responsibility to hold to the same standard? And yet they clearly do not because they hide a lot of the more problematic information from inquirers. That alone calls doctrine into question when it needs to be hidden from potential converts.

There is a long running joke in the LDS church that it must be true because if it was not the missionaries would have ruined it long ago.)

We have some 50-60k young people spending 1.5-2 years teaching the gospel. Not all of them are going to do a great job every time.

I’m not sure what particular “problematic information” you are referring to, but most missionaries I know follow a fairly simple pattern. Share our basic take on God, Christ how JS and the BoM help us to follow Christ and ask people to read pray and come to church to see for themselves.

Do they go out of their way to say of by the way some people can’t accept that God might send an angel to ask for the plates back after JS was done no. No more than a catholic place is going to mention to someone looking into the church BTW do you know how many priest molested kids or did you ever hear about the bad popes?

When I was a missionary (going back a few years) I never avoided questions people had that related to our doctrine, but I meet more than a few people who knew nothing aside from what their letter “stump the Mormons” pamphlet said and often the information was very inaccurate on our own beliefs. (I’ll leave who’s understanding of the Bible is right out of it because that’s an area where I think most people can agree honest disagreements happen).

 

[MelanieAnne]

I’ve noticed your language regarding the BoM and JS for that matter is quite strong. What are you afraid of?

The position of the Church is quite clear. Ask God if it is right.

If you’re speaking to me, then I will answer you.

I am not afraid of anything having to do with the Mormons but I do feel sorry for this entire group of people that is being so badly misled. Many of them are very good people and it is a tragedy that they are being told all these lies. I object to that.

To listen to Mormons speak about their religion, one after another (and I know many Mormons, have been to church with my friends many times) is to listen to what sounds very much like brainwashing. And there is a stunning lack of curiosity about the intellectual problems presented by such things as DNA evidence in opposition to the Book of Mormon story. The accusations of “cult” have certain factual foundations.

I am also not impressed in the slightest by those LDS “scientists” who cherry-pick the evidence and strain credulity further trying to maintain the status quo. Enough is Enough! The Book of Mormon is a STORY, a work of FICTION.

If you are asking me to ponder the LDS church in order to ascertain the validity, I will give you my testimony:

I KNOW the LDS Church is NOT true. I KNOW that Joseph Smith is NOT a prophet. I KNOW that the LDS Church is NOT the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

I KNOW that the “Holy Spirit” that supposedly speaks to LDS members and potential members is NOT the same Holy Spirit that came to us at Pentecost, which we celebrated last Sunday. I KNOW that we were warned about new “Gospels” brought by “Angels” and were told to reject them.

I’ve asked God. I got my answer.

 

[MelanieAnne]

There is a long running joke in the LDS church that it must be true because if it was not the missionaries would have ruined it long ago.)

We have some 50-60k young people spending 1.5-2 years teaching the gospel. Not all of them are going to do a great job every time.

I’m not sure what particular “problematic information” you are referring to, but most missionaries I know follow a fairly simple pattern. Share our basic take on God, Christ how JS and the BoM help us to follow Christ and ask people to read pray and come to church to see for themselves.

Do they go out of their way to say of by the way some people can’t accept that God might send an angel to ask for the plates back after JS was done no. No more than a catholic place is going to mention to someone looking into the church BTW do you know how many priest molested kids or did you ever hear about the bad popes?

When I was a missionary (going back a few years) I never avoided questions people had that related to our doctrine, but I meet more than a few people who knew nothing aside from what their letter “stump the Mormons” pamphlet said and often the information was very inaccurate on our own beliefs. (I’ll leave who’s understanding of the Bible is right out of it because that’s an area where I think most people can agree honest disagreements happen).

Teancum, I was at a Gospel Doctrine class with a friend of mine one time when the teacher, who was a really good teacher and very well versed in the Book of Mormon, talked about the magic rocks JS used to “translate” the Book of Mormon.

He was shouted down by class members, some of whom were old enough to be retired and who had been members all their lives. It was very dramatic. People left the class in tears. Others left in anger. The disbelief was stunning. But it’s doctrine. Not only is the detail of this process hidden from prospective members, it is apparently hidden from long-standing members too.

If you have to hide key aspects of your religion to get people to join, there’s something wrong.

 

[teancum79]

Teancum, I was at a Gospel Doctrine class with a friend of mine one time when the teacher, who was a really good teacher and very well versed in the Book of Mormon, talked about the magic rocks JS used to “translate” the Book of Mormon.

He was shouted down by class members, some of whom were old enough to be retired and who had been members all their lives. It was very dramatic. People left the class in tears. Others left in anger. The disbelief was stunning. But it’s doctrine. Not only is the detail of this process hidden from prospective members, it is apparently hidden from long-standing members too.

If you have to hide key aspects of your religion to get people to join, there’s something wrong.

It’s not a “key” aspect.

It has been taught for as long as I’ve been able to remember that JS translated the BoM by the gift and power of God. If people get overly upset by one method vs. another that is their issue.

Personally I’d like to have some more information about JS and his life taught, but the validity of sources is often hard as many people took a great disliking to him and made up a ton of crud. So we are often left with a choice information from people who thought he was a prophet and information from people who thought he was the devil or worse. It makes it hard to know what information is really valid from a historical perspective. When you have information that both members who stayed faithful and persons who left the church or never joined telling the same story you get onto some firmer ground.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The reason why this topic matters so much to me (aside from the general liking for truth) is that when people spread false information (IE that there is no evidence of the BOM or that science has proven it to be false) it interferes with a persons ability to find out for themselves. Not unlike (though less drastic) policies that forbid the teaching of Christianity in some countries.

Really? Providing information that is truthful and factual interferes with a search for truth? You never showed how what I wrote is a lie. You provided red herrings.

If the BoM is such a clear fraud and so contrary to the Bible than people in mass numbers will come to that conclusion on their own without people trying to convince them before ever taking a look at it that its fiction.

Wait, stop showing evidence that the BoM is false because you don’t like it, but in the meantime, people can come to that conclusion without this evidence on their own? How’s that?

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s not a “key” aspect.

It has been taught for as long as I’ve been able to remember that JS translated the BoM by the gift and power of God. If people get overly upset by one method vs. another that is their issue.

Personally I’d like to have some more information about JS and his life taught, but the validity of sources is often hard as many people took a great disliking to him and made up a ton of crud. So we are often left with a choice information from people who thought he was a prophet and information from people who thought he was the devil or worse. It makes it hard to know what information is really valid from a historical perspective. When you have information that both members who stayed faithful and persons who left the church or never joined telling the same story you get onto some firmer ground.

Or court records showing arrests for treasure hunting, which in todays terms would be fraud.

Or, court records with warrants for arrests due to failed banks, prompting a run away from the law in the name of “persecution”. In todays terms would be fraud.

Or documented adulterous relationships with children, married women, and dozens of others, all in the name of God. More fraud.

 

[teancum79]

Or court records showing arrests for treasure hunting, which in todays terms would be fraud.

Or, court records with warrants for arrests due to failed banks, prompting a run away from the law in the name of “persecution”. In todays terms would be fraud.

Or documented adulterous relationships with children, married women, and dozens of others, all in the name of God. More fraud.

I’m not too sure about the treasure hunting attempts, but the idea of burred pirate treasure has captured the time and attention of many people over the years and it still goes on today. Though now we call it research and science.

Children where often married off at very young ages in those days. If I recall from one of the wacky law collections a girl in Kansas has to be 14 to get married without parental consent marriages at young ages required mom and dad to agree. Plural marriage was not illegal when the church first practiced it. It was made illegal latter. It’s wrong to judge a man for an act that only years latter became a crime. As to relationships with married women I’ve yet to see any reliable evidence of that. Though I hardly think there is a crime for which JS was not accused. I recall him having said something to the effect that he was guilty of sinning, but not the sins for which he was so often accused.

Small banks failed left and right back then.

but we are getting a bit off topic again.

 

[teancum79]

moroni10.com/Hanna.html

For what it is worth it is an LDS leaning site, but I figured the info was interesting.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m not too sure about the treasure hunting attempts, but the idea of burred pirate treasure has captured the time and attention of many people over the years and it still goes on today. Though now we call it research and science.

JS was a scientist now! Didn’t you already say that he was uneducated.

He was arrested for charging people for treasuring hunting on their farms by using peep stone. A magic rock. The same peep stone he put in a hat to “translate” the BoM. This arrest record is freely available.

You need to do some serious reading.

Children where often married off at very young ages in those days. If I recall from one of the wacky law collections a girl in Kansas has to be 14 to get married without parental consent marriages at young ages required mom and dad to agree.

This is make believe Mormonism with no fact behind it. Historical fact is that people in this time period did not get married until their twenties.

Plural marriage was not illegal when the church first practiced it. It was made illegal latter. It’s wrong to judge a man for an act that only years latter became a crime.

Bigamy laws have existed in the US since its inception. What Congress did is strengthen them, due to JS philandering and teaching that philandering was commanded by God.

Adultery was illegal at the time.

As to relationships with married women I’ve yet to see any reliable evidence of that. Though I hardly think there is a crime for which JS was not accused. I recall him having said something to the effect that he was guilty of sinning, but not the sins for which he was so often accused.

Yes, more reading. There are diary entries and witnesses. Todd Compton’s “In Sacred Loneliness” is accepted by the general Momon population as not being “anti”. You can buy it at Deseret Book (or you could, I haven’t been in that store for a long while).

Small banks failed left and right back then.

but we are getting a bit off topic again.

So, because “everyone was doing it”, it wasn’t a crime? The fact that their was a warrant for his, and Hyrum’s arrest, says otherwise.

 

[MelanieAnne]

It’s not a “key” aspect.

It has been taught for as long as I’ve been able to remember that JS translated the BoM by the gift and power of God. If people get overly upset by one method vs. another that is their issue.

Personally I’d like to have some more information about JS and his life taught, but the validity of sources is often hard as many people took a great disliking to him and made up a ton of crud. So we are often left with a choice information from people who thought he was a prophet and information from people who thought he was the devil or worse. It makes it hard to know what information is really valid from a historical perspective. When you have information that both members who stayed faithful and persons who left the church or never joined telling the same story you get onto some firmer ground.

Teancum, if, on any other subject, someone told you that they discerned the meaning of a text written in another language by peering at magic glowing rocks held at the bottom of a hat, I cannot believe that you wouldn’t think that was preposterous. No one could keep a straight face when told that story. Try telling it to a non-Mormon and see.

Yet that is precisely what JS asks people to believe about the “translation” of the Book of Mormon from the non-existent language called “Reformed Egyptian”.

There are SO MANY reasons beyond the DNA to doubt the Book of Mormon.

A few of the things I like about being a Catholic are:

1. It makes sense
2. You don’t have to hide stuff from people
3. As long as you take Jesus at His Word, you can learn everything you really need to know, all the essentials. Trust Jesus.

A few of the things that I don’t like about Mormonism are:

1. It makes no sense
2. You have to hide stuff from people
3. You don’t follow the clear directives from Jesus, such as with your sacraments.
4. There is no authority directly from Jesus to do anything that you do.
5. Jesus isn’t even important in Mormonism, despite the fact that Mormons supposedly believe He died for sinners. (Maybe it was a different Jesus? Just like it’s a different Holy Spirit?) Mormons neither worship nor pray to Jesus, He is subordinate to God/Heavenly Father.

 

[RebeccaJ]

moroni10.com/Hanna.html

For what it is worth it is an LDS leaning site, but I figured the info was interesting.

en.fairmormon.org/Sami_Hanna_on_the_Book_of_Mormon

LDS leaning site, figured the info was interesting.

"At one time Elder Nelson had a neighbor named Sami Hanna, who was an Arabic scholar and a member of the Church. Based on his knowledge of Arabic and his experience translating the Book of Mormon into Arabic, Sami thought there were numerous things in the Book of Mormon text that were consistent with a Semitic original of that book.
Elder Nelson has alluded to Sami a few times in talks, as he has to others of his extensive network of friends who can read Hebrew. But he has never given a talk specifically on Sami. The internet article that circulates under his name was not written by Elder Nelson.
According to Sami’s son, Mark, Sami left the Church some time ago and is now some sort of a fundamentalist Christian. He now repudiates his former comments on the Book of Mormon.
Such a repudiation is not, however, terribly significant. Sami’s material on the Book of Mormon was never a part of mainstream LDS scholarship on the subject. It was linguistically naive in a number of important respects.[1] "

 

[teancum79]

Christ was tried and executed for treason.

I did a little checking and mid teen marriages where not unheard of by any stretch in the 1800’s .
newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/polygamy-then-and-now
british-genealogy.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1969.html

perhaps you should read a bit more yourself before assuming that I’m uninformed.

I’m not saying the bank failing was a good thing, but it happened often and I find it disturbing that the Smiths get blamed for everything that went wrong.

 

[teancum79]

Teancum, if, on any other subject, someone told you that they discerned the meaning of a text written in another language by peering at magic glowing rocks held at the bottom of a hat, I cannot believe that you wouldn’t think that was preposterous. No one could keep a straight face when told that story. Try telling it to a non-Mormon and see.

Yet that is precisely what JS asks people to believe about the “translation” of the Book of Mormon from the non-existent language called “Reformed Egyptian”.

There are SO MANY reasons beyond the DNA to doubt the Book of Mormon.

A few of the things I like about being a Catholic are:

1. It makes sense
2. You don’t have to hide stuff from people
3. As long as you take Jesus at His Word, you can learn everything you really need to know, all the essentials. Trust Jesus.

A few of the things that I don’t like about Mormonism are:

1. It makes no sense
2. You have to hide stuff from people
3. You don’t follow the clear directives from Jesus, such as with your sacraments.
4. There is no authority directly from Jesus to do anything that you do.
5. Jesus isn’t even important in Mormonism, despite the fact that Mormons supposedly believe He died for sinners. (Maybe it was a different Jesus? Just like it’s a different Holy Spirit?) Mormons neither worship nor pray to Jesus, He is subordinate to God/Heavenly Father.

It does make sense to many people.
I’m not even going to get into the catholic church hiding stuff, but for those who are so fond of reading more it could make for an interesting pursuit.
We do follow very clear directives from Christ
There is direct authority from Christ for the things we do.
We worship the Father in Christ name.

What these have to do with the BOM I’m not sure, but nice try.
You are right however about the translation story being hard to believe. It is an unlikely story, but as an agnostic man I talked with once pointed out. If you believe all that stuff in the bible why the Mormon stuff is not that hard.

A guy translating a book through the power of God that he found because an angel told him where it was it a hard story to buy.

But in contrast to the red sea parting. People rising from the dead. A man travailing to heaven in a fiery chariot. 3 kids being thrown into a fire and not being hurt nor even smelling of smoke. One 2 occasions people who where dead for a few days coming back and a guy appearing in a locked room with all doors and windows closed using a “magic” stone to translate a recored is really a very easy to accept story.

 

[MelanieAnne]

It does make sense to many people.
I’m not even going to get into the catholic church hiding stuff, but for those who are so fond of reading more it could make for an interesting pursuit.
We do follow very clear directives from Christ
There is direct authority from Christ for the things we do.
We worship the Father in Christ name.

What these have to do with the BOM I’m not sure, but nice try.
You are right however about the translation story being hard to believe. It is an unlikely story, but as an agnostic man I talked with once pointed out. If you believe all that stuff in the bible why the Mormon stuff is not that hard.

A guy translating a book through the power of God that he found because an angel told him where it was it a hard story to buy.

But in contrast to the red sea parting. People rising from the dead. A man travailing to heaven in a fiery chariot. 3 kids being thrown into a fire and not being hurt nor even smelling of smoke. One 2 occasions people who where dead for a few days coming back and a guy appearing in a locked room with all doors and windows closed using a “magic” stone to translate a recored is really a very easy to accept story.

So you make fun of the Bible to validate the Book of Mormon? How is that “Christian”?

I’m starting to believe the folks that assert that Mormons are not Christians. They have a case. When the BOM is questioned, your solution is to attack the Bible. Obviously Christianity is not truly important to anyone who would choose to do that.

If you followed the directives given by Jesus at the Last Supper, for example, in your sacraments then you would:

1. Have unleavened bread, but Mormons don’t, the stuff I’ve seen looks more like WonderBread
2. Have wine, but Mormons don’t, they have water
3. Believe that you are partaking of the literal Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus and not a symbol (of course it would have to be consecrated as such by one with the authority to do so, which the Mormon priesthood lacks)

All the rest is superfluous when you lack the basics. You do not follow Jesus on the most fundamental level. You ignore the clear directive of the Gospel and make your own ritual up.

 

[hosemonkey]

I believe that at least one of the reasons for TBM mormons’ defense of their preposterous “religion” is that nobody likes to feel that they have been conned. I think that many mormons have a sneaking suspicion that the “religion” that they have committed themselves to is indeed, a scam. But nobody likes to look like a fool, so rather than excercize some intellectual courage, they continue to practice and defend the deception. Or, even when presented with hard evidence of the fraud, they put their brains into neutral and stay in the cult.