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Johan
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Well, I don’t think she was chosen because of any particular qualities of hers. She was chosen by the grace of God (hence κεχαριτωμένη, “favored one”, in Luke 1:28) to be the mother of Christ.
Do any Protestants believe in the Assumption?
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Johan
Guest
Sorry, that was directed at another poster. I am just so tired of reading that we disparage or even hate Mary for saying that she was nothing more or less than the mother of Christ.
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HopkinsReb
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Not so far off from what Catholics believe on the topic, the difference being that it’s not that Mary was chosen because she was special, but rather that she was made special in advance for the thing for which she was chosen.De_Maria:
Well, I don’t think she was chosen because of any particular qualities of hers. She was chosen by the grace of God (hence κεχαριτωμένη, “favored one”, in Luke 1:28) to be the mother of Christ.
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Johan
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Right, but I do not find any hint in the Scriptures that she was “made special in advance” (I guess you’re implicitly referring to the so-called immaculate conception), but rather that she was assigned a role that was very special indeed.
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Tommy999
Guest
Nothing related to Early Church Fathers. Just materials I’ve seen on the web such as the piece below that make me ponder a little about the possible fusion between Mary and Artemis. I still lean toward the Catholic position because I’d like to believe that Jesus meant what He said in Matthew 16:17-19 when He said that the “gates of hell would not prevail against the Church”, but works like the following cause me to wonder sometimes.It’s fine and good to be candid.Is this conflict you are having in your mind based on any research which suggest that the Church Fathers had any ulterior motives in this regard? I have not come across any that suggests that so far, myself.
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De_Maria
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We understand that word to mean, “full of grace”. That is her quality. And “favored one” sounds like her quatlity, as well.De_Maria:
Well, I don’t think she was chosen because of any particular qualities of hers. She was chosen by the grace of God (hence κεχαριτωμένη, “favored one”, in Luke 1:28) to be the mother of Christ.
Why do you feel it is not her quality? Who else did God address in that fashion?
Edit: Does that mean that you believe that any woman could have been the mother of Jesus?
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De_Maria
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I like that. But the way I see it, when she was “made special”, that became her quality. God gave it to her and no one else.
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De_Maria
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Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
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De_Maria
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Wonder what? Any Tom, Dick or Harry can have an opinion.
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Justin_Mary
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She is the image of the Church. Try to see her in that light. Not the Church as the body of Christ. That’s us. Understanding Mary helps us understand the Church. We are in the womb of Mother Church. She feeds us, protects us, we are formed in her image, which is Christ.
She is inseparable from Jesus. Jesus is inseparable from Her. Hail Mary, full of Grace. The Lord is with you.
She is inseparable from Jesus. Jesus is inseparable from Her. Hail Mary, full of Grace. The Lord is with you.
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Tommy999
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I was hoping you would read it and refute the points in it that are in error.
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De_Maria
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Neh. That’s a lot like work. Did you see how long that is?
Here’s something I’ll give you though. Did you notice that this is an atheist program?
Notice how their arguments against Mary being the Queen of Heaven resemble the Protestant arguments.
But Mary is the Queen of Heaven. She is the mother of the King of Heaven. That makes her the Queen. And it is explicitly shown in Rev 12:1.
Now, Protestants make much of the fact that the OT says:
Jeremiah 44:24-26 King James Version (KJV)
24 Moreover Jeremiah said unto all the people, and to all the women, Hear the word of the Lord, all Judah that are in the land of Egypt:
25 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.
26 Therefore hear ye the word of the Lord, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the Lord, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord God liveth.
But:
- God had not revealed His Queen until the Christ was born.
- God does not intend for anyone to worship the Queen.
- Although He was the first to give her due reverence.
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Tommy999
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Fair enough. I was mainly troubled by the section that starts on page 184 and goes for about 10 pages
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Wannano
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I have read up to 144 this evening and find it fascinating. But my eyes won’t focus properly any longer!
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Johan
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Right, but there are no hints in the context that this refers to any “immaculate conception”. Clearly, she is speaking of her pregnancy by the Holy Spirit.
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Johan
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Yes, but it does not literally mean “full of grace”. That would be πλήρης χάριτος (John 1:14), which is befittingly applied to Christ. So the verb literally means “graced” and you find the exact same verb tense in Sirach 18:17 without any hint of continuous sinlessness:
Because it is not God’s modus operandi to choose individuals based on their inherent qualities. We are all frail sinners chosen by grace alone. So although that exact expression is not found elsewhere in the Bible, it is nonetheless true that we who believe are all recipients of God’s grace “which He freely bestowed [ἐχαρίτωσεν, same verb] on us in the Beloved” (Eph 1:6, NASB).
If you ask if God could have made just any woman the mother of Jesus, the answer is of course yes. Everything is possible for God. But He chose her and no one else for this task.
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De_Maria
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The context is Catholic Doctrine. The Catholic Church wrote those words based upon the Teachings of Jesus Christ.De_Maria:
Right, but there are no hints in the context that this refers to any “immaculate conception”. Clearly, she is speaking of her pregnancy by the Holy Spirit.
She is speaking in the plural.
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De_Maria
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You see, now you’ve saved us a lot of reading. Now, you can save us even more.
Specifically, what is it within those 10 pages that troubles you so much?
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SetInMotion
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What I find interesting, in connection, is the Islamic sources which teach (essentially) the same thing, in that their Sahih aHadith Bukhari say that Mary was “not touched by Satan”.
Sahih al Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 641:
Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab:
Abu Huraira said, “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, 'There is none born among the off-spring of
Adam, but Satan touches it. A child therefore, cries loudly at the time of birth because of the touch of Satan, except Mary and her child.” Then Abu Huraira recited: “And I seek refuge with You for her and for her offspring from the outcast Satan” (3.36)
This is based upon qur’an Surah Al’Imran 3:36 (Yusuf-Ali tr.)
- When she was delivered, she said: “O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!”- and Allah knew best what she brought forth(377)- "And no wise is the male Like the female(378). I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected."
“378 The female child could not be devoted to Temple service under the Mosaic
law, as she intended. But she was marked out for a special destiny as a miracle-child,
to be the mother of the miracle-child Jesus. She was content to seek Allah’s
protection for her against all evil. …”
Yet, I know who came first, and from which the other is derived.
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TULIPed
Guest
Amen brother - and thank God.
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