Do any Protestants believe in the Assumption?

[PeterT]

PeterT:

That’s a false statement.

The Church knows for sure that it occurred, hence it’s a dogma of the Catholic Church.

Really? What official statements do you have?

This one from Pope Pius XII. It doesn’t get any more official than this:

MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS
DEFINING THE DOGMA OF THE ASSUMPTION

http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x...-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus.html

 

[That_Flint_Guy]

With respect to the veneration of the virgin Mary, how would a Catholic interpret this?

Luke 11:27-28 (KJV) And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

It seems to indicate that Jesus himself was against the veneration of his mother. Any thoughts?

 

[De_Maria]

With respect to the veneration of the virgin Mary, how would a Catholic interpret this?
It seems to indicate that Jesus himself was against the veneration of his mother. Any thoughts?

Yeah, I frequently encounter this, usually posed as an objection against the veneration of Mary.

First, notice that this is the book of St. Luke. St. Luke also wrote the Annunciation. Let’s go there.

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Let’s break this down:

ANGEL GABRIEL

1. an angel is a messenger of God. That is what the word, angel, means.
2. this angel, Gabriel, is one of the four angels that stands before the throne of God.

WAS SENT FROM GOD

1. God sent this angel to Mary.
2. Since this angel is a messenger of God’s, God sent Him to deliver a message.
3. Therefore, the angel was not speaking on his own, but was communicating God’s message to Mary.
4. If we skip down to verse 28, we see that this was a message of praise (i.e. blessed art thou).
5. Therefore God, the Father praised Mary through His Angel.
6. And we know that the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit,
   thus, praised Mary in the Scriptures.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

But, there’s more. Because the Holy Spirit inspired a holy woman to exclaim, ""Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! "
still in Luke 1.

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

What can we learn from this?

1. The Holy Spirit is God the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.
2. Therefore, God inspired Elisabeth to praise Mary.
3. This praise is inscribed in the Word of God for all generations.
4. Since Elisabeth is a member of the human race, then it is safe to conclude that God wills that men praise Mary.
5. And we find, again, that God praised Mary through His Saint. Saint Elisabeth praised Mary when she was inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so. That means that it is the Holy Spirit’s praise which she passed on. That is why Scripture is called the Word of God. Because it is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

St. Luke seems to have had a special relationship with our Lady.
Mother of God
Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord

Lets break this down:

1. The word “Lord” is here mentioned two times.
2. In the second instance, it is an obvious reference to God. “Blessed is she who believes that the LORD would fulfill His promises.” That is an obvious reference to God.
3. Therefore, then, what could she possibly have meant when she said, “mother of my LORD”?
4. Since she was inspired by the Holy Spirit to utter these words, she must have meant what is most obvious. Is Jesus, God? Yes. Therefore, the words she uttered could also be translated, “mother of my GOD”.
5. So, God explicitly teaches us, in His Word, that Mary is the Mother of God.

It seems really repetitious. But St. Luke pounds us with the fact that Mary is
worthy of praise. Just one more. “From now on all generations will call me blessed (Luke 1:48).”

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

So, God wills that all generations will praise Mary. Now, let’s address your question.

With respect to the veneration of the virgin Mary, how would a Catholic interpret this?
It seems to indicate that Jesus himself was against the veneration of his mother. Any thoughts?

Luke 11:27-28 (KJV) And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

In my opinion, if we interpret this as Jesus being against the veneration of Mary, then we have the Holy Spirit reversing Himself. We have God contradicting Himself.

But, if we go by what St. Luke originally said and read this in the context of:

Luke 1:45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord

It is Mary who meets the criteria of being “blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” in a most excellent manner. When Jesus said these things, He did not exclude Mary, but recognizes that Mary is not venerated simply for being His mother. But she is venerated because of her exceeding faithfulness to God.

I hope that helps. Sorry for the exceeding length.

 

[OddBird]

Not a Catholic, but I think context matters (as always).

Jesus has just expelled a demon from somebody and is accused of obeying to one himself. So he starts teaching about authority and demons. And a lady suddenly interrupts by saying something we could render today by : “What a great man you are, and how cool it must be to be your mom !” To which Jesus retorts : “If you think I’m that great, you should want to listen to me and practice what I say.”

The point is not that Jesus says “Do not venerate my mother”, it is that the woman doesn’t connect the dots between what Jesus teaches and her own life. She answers as if she wasn’t concerned, as if Jesus’ life didn’t have an impact on her own. Jesus sets her right.

 

[That_Flint_Guy]

“Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.”

That goes a bit farther than simply saying that it must be cool to be his mother. It looks as though the woman is giving her praise in a religious context. Or does it only read that way in Protestant translations, in the same way that the word “repent” is often rendered as “do penance” in Catholic translations?

 

[OddBird]

These blessings are just the way people talked in a semitic context. Just to pull two quick examples out of the OT, Naomi tells Ruth “Blessed be the one who took interest in you” (Ruth 2,19) and David tells Abigail “Blessed be your good sense and blessed by you, who stopped me from shedding blood today” (1 Samel 25,33 ; both verses are approximate translations from my French Bible). Yet, no one would suggest that these verses allude to venerating Boaz or venerating Abigail’s good sense.

 

[Johan]

It matters a great deal to us. Your statement that a key dogma of the Blessed Mother “doesn’t matter” is very disrespectful to Mother Mary.

The question in the opening post was directed at Protestants, and to most of us, it is not a doctrine of faith what happened to Mary later on. Possibly she died, perhaps she was assumed … the Bible is silent on this. I seriously cannot understand how it can be “disrespectful” to Mary not to speculate about that of which the Word of God says nothing. We respect her for the role she was assigned to have, i.e., to be the mother of our Savior.

I realize it “doesn’t matter” to whole groups of Protestants who decided they didn’t need Mother Mary…we pray in reparation for that too.

Well, that is not true. We “needed” her in the sense I indicated above, namely that she was chosen to give birth to our Lord and Savior. But she herself is not our Savior, nor is our salvation contingent on her intercession or something like that.

 

[BT3241]

Both Calvin and Luther believed how special Mary was - the hate for her seems to come from Babtists and has rubbed off on some of the other protestant churches

 

[Johan]

Both Calvin and Luther believed how special Mary was - the hate for her seems to come from Babtists and has rubbed off on some of the other protestant churches

Hey hey hey, enough with the exaggerations already. There is certainly no hate for Mary among Protestants. Why on earth would we hate her? You seem to consider it “hate” when we point out that she was nothing more or less than the mother of Jesus Christ.

 

[BT3241]

God is the great planner of all thing he does nothing lightly he would of prepared her . If Jesus was beside you your entire life would you be sinning or I guess as soon as you were out of his presence you would sin I guess and I admit hate was too harsh

 

[Qoheleth1]

I do. I am a confessional Lutheran (much closer to catholicism than many catholics and Lutherans like to admit).

Luther on the Assumption of Mary: "There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know"

Many evangelicals in the charismatic or reformed sense (especially these guys) don’t think about it. Many don’t want to think about it and others are outright dismissive of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God.

It’s sad, but we know.

 

[HopkinsReb]

You seem to consider it “hate” when we point out that she was nothing more or less than the mother of Jesus Christ.

I mean, being the mother of God is a pretty big deal. Nothing more than that is still a whole heck of a lot.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Some critics say that just like Christmas was a pagan holiday that was co-opted into a Christian one by the early Christians,

Christians actually celebrated Christ’s birthday quite early on, and there is evidence that He was indeed born around December 25. The whole “Christmas is really a pagan holiday” myth has been repeated so much, even by Christians, that most people believe it.

Some critics say that just like Christmas was a pagan holiday that was co-opted into a Christian one by the early Christians, critics claim that the goddess Artemis was replaced by an elevated version of Mary and co-opted to placate those who longed for the female divine that had been taken away from them by the Christians.

I realize this may seem laughable and a far-fetched notion for most Catholics, but it is an idea in the back of my head that I can’t seem to shake and it remains a stumbling block that keeps me from fully accepting Mary as Catholics see her. Any help would be appreciated.

Is it that you believe that councils such as the one at Ephesus were motivated by something other than theology in declaring Mary to be Theotokos? I would say that if you accept that the Church councils (Nicaea, Ephesus, Constantinople, etc.) were guided by the Holy Spirit on all the other doctrinal matters they cleared up, which Christians now take for granted (the Trinity, the nature and divinity of Christ, etc.), why would it be more far-fetched that they were also guided by the Holy Spirit on the Marian doctrines?

 

[Johan]

Many don’t want to think about it and others are outright dismissive of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God.

This is just incredible … we do NOT hate Mary, nor are we “dismissive” of her! I find this allegation completely baseless. She was the mother of Jesus Christ, simple as that. How is that to be “dismissive” of her?

 

[Tommy999]

Christians actually celebrated Christ’s birthday quite early on, and there is evidence that He was indeed born around December 25. The whole “Christmas is really a pagan holiday” myth has been repeated so much, even by Christians, that most people believe it.

My understanding is that the winter solstice was celebrated around that time of year long before the Christmas celebration came along, but having Christmas at that time was a way to Christianize the strong pagan impulse to celebrate the winter solstice by weaning them from it and by offering them Christmas as a Christian substitute holiday of major significance to replace it with.

Is it that you believe that councils such as the one at Ephesus were motivated by something other than theology in declaring Mary to be Theotokos? I would say that if you accept that the Church councils (Nicaea, Ephesus, Constantinople, etc.) were guided by the Holy Spirit on all the other doctrinal matters they cleared up, which Christians now take for granted (the Trinity, the nature and divinity of Christ, etc.), why would it be more far-fetched that they were also guided by the Holy Spirit on the Marian doctrines.

This is where there is still debate in my mind taking place – I am being totally candid. While I believe the councils were positively motivated by God to clear up many doctrinal matters, I think it is also within the realm of possibility from a human standpoint for the Council of Ephesus to have had a secondary and more worldly motive in pronouncing Mary the ‘Mother of God’ in Ephesus – center of Artemis worship for centuries – as a means of replacing the long-held and almost innate desire within the formerly pagan Mediterranean communities to worship the ‘female divine’. In some ways, this is similar to replacing the pagan winter solstice celebration with Christmas. Instead of going cold-turkey from Artemis, I think it is possible that the Church leaders of that time could have steered the Mediterranean population to a “souped up” version of Mary. I realize this may be far-fetched for many, but I find that the council taking place in Ephesus of all places was a big coincidence in terms of Mary.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

My understanding is that the winter solstice was celebrated around that time of year long before the Christmas celebration came along, but having Christmas at that time was a way to Christianize the strong pagan impulse to celebrate the winter solstice by weaning them from it and by offering them Christmas as a Christian substitute holiday of major significance to replace it with.

That is a very popular belief but most likely is not true. Here are a couple of articles that debunk the claim that Christians took a pagan holiday and tried to christianize it (in the first one, the author makes a case that the pagans may actually have been the ones that “borrowed” the December feast from the Christians):
-Calculating Christmas: The Story behind December 25
-Why December 25? Debunking the Claim that Christians “Borrowed” the Date for Christmas

This is where there is still debate in my mind taking place – I am being totally candid. While I believe the councils were positively motivated by God to clear up many doctrinal matters, I think it is also within the realm of possibility from a human standpoint for the Council of Ephesus to have had a secondary and more worldly motive in pronouncing Mary the ‘Mother of God’ in Ephesus – center of Artemis worship for centuries – as a means of replacing the long-held and almost innate desire within the formerly pagan Mediterranean communities to worship the ‘female divine’.

It’s fine and good to be candid. Is this conflict you are having in your mind based on any research which suggest that the Church Fathers had any ulterior motives in this regard? I have not come across any that suggests that so far, myself. It seems that there was a very legitimate debate going on over whether, based on the nature of who Christ is, Mary should be called Christotokos (Christ-bearer) or Theotokos (God-bearer). The answer to this question had a direct bearing on Christology.

 

[De_Maria]

… we point out that she was nothing more or less than the mother of Jesus Christ.

Does that seem like a trivial thing to you? I’ve heard Protestants say that any woman could have been the mother of Jesus Christ. But, as for us, the only woman whom God called “blessed among women”, is Mary.

But, how do you personally feel about it? Do you think any woman could have been the mother of Jesus Christ?

 

[Qoheleth1]

Qoheleth1:

Many don’t want to think about it and others are outright dismissive of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God.

This is just incredible … we do NOT hate Mary, nor are we “dismissive” of her! I find this allegation completely baseless. She was the mother of Jesus Christ, simple as that. How is that to be “dismissive” of her?

I never said evangelicals hate Mary. Where did that phrase appear in my comment?