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guanophore
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No, the Catholic Church does not teach this.
Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?
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david_ruiz
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david_ruiz
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It has been said that much of the old shows a way for the new testament,a foresahdow .Did not Israel have unity ,early on with no King, except Jehovah ? Somehow this invisible God had a quite visible nation .Just ask the Egyptians and Philistines etc.Then what happened ? They got a little insecure , took there eyes off Jehovah , put their eyes on the world ,and said , "gives us a king like the other nations ". God "allowed it , even blessed this second rate idea .Could not ,and did He not rule over His early church ,invisibly(no central authority) ,yet the world took note of these Christians ,the Way ? The Church was quite visible and united .Then came the full excercise of Catholic Petrine doctrine, resembling much of the worldly Rome ,that was collapsing. Unity remained , though not by invisible forces,but quite vocal and visible ,and with increasing spiritual and temporal power, and some say by a second rate idea or way ,that yes , was still blessed of God ,For a time(as with Israel )… Sorry ,you asked if there was another way .
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PRmerger
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The Ascension of Isaiah
“[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’” (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).
The Odes of Solomon
"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).
Justin Martyr
“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).
“The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree *. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten” (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight” (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].
Pseudo-Melito
“If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 [A.D. 300]).
Ephraim the Syrian
“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).
"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God?
(cont’d)*
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PRmerger
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Part II
Augustine
“Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both” (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).
“That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head” (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).
…
“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).
Timothy of Jerusalem
“Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption” (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).
John the Theologian
“[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’” (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).
“And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise” (ibid.).
Gregory of Tours
“The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary’s body] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end” (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 [A.D. 584]).
“But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her” (ibid., 1:8).
Source.
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1beleevr
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I was saved outside the catholic church(Thank You Jesus!)
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PRmerger
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If you used the Bible to inspire you to say the sinner’s prayer (or whatever your pastor required for you to be saved), then it was through the Catholic Church, 1beleevr.I was saved outside the catholic church(Thank You Jesus!)
You cannot argue with history.
If you read the Gospel of John and knew you were saved, then it was because the CC discerned that this was God’s revelation and not the Gospel of Thomas.
If you read Hebrews and knew you were saved, then it was because the CC discerned that this was God’s revelation and not the Odes of Solomon.
If you read Revelation and knew you were saved, then it was because the CC discerned that this was God’s revelation and not the Letters of Clement.
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Augsburg1530
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PR, thanks for the quotes. Maybe I’m missing it, though, I don’t see any that reference her immaculate conception. The closest I see is Augustine’s comment regarding her sinless state (but there were fathers who did not concur). Could you clarify?
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PRmerger
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PRmerger
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Yes, her sinless state. That’s the Immaculate Conception.
That there were fathers who did not concur is irrelevant. (Who didn’t, BTW?)
It’s been established that this belief was professed way before 1854.
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Augsburg1530
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The two are not precisely the same, however. As you know, St. Thomas disputed the Immaculate Conception, while still holding that at some point, she ceased to commit actual sin.
Why is it relevant if they did concur, but irrelevant if they didn’t? (Origen, Basil, and Chrysostom spring to mind… the fact that they believed she sinned would automatically mean they didn’t believe she was conceived without sin.)
It was. That doesn’t mean it was apostolic in origin.
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1beleevr
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For her to be conceived without sin, wouldn’t her mother, and her mother, etc.,etc.,etc, have to have been born without sin? I mean she was born of the seed of a man!
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PRmerger
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Why would it* have to* be this way?
It was fitting that she be born without sin, but not required. God could have become incarnate in a peapod.
But, it was fitting that He come to be held in a vessel worthy of His Divinity.
Just like if the King of Siam were to come to my home it would be fitting that I clean my house. But I don’t “have to.”
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david_ruiz
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david_ruiz
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PRmerger
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Indeed. Not precisely the same. Hence the need for a solemn, formal declaration in 1854.
Did you read my analogy with my children acting as if DH and I were making up new rules when we told them they had to hang up their backpacks?
The rule had always been in effect: when you come home from school you need to put your stuff away.
Things went well until they got in the upper grades and had lots of homework and needed backpacks.
They were coming home and leaving their backpacks on the floor!
So we had to have a meeting: what does putting your stuff away PRECISELY mean? It means putting your backpacks away.
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PRmerger
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Just curious.
Can you provide references that Basil and Chrsysostom believed she sinned? (Origen is not a ECF, but rather an early ecclesial writer.)
:tiphat:
It was in the NT–that’s pretty much apostolic, eh? :ehh:
[BIBLEDRB]Luke 1:28[/BIBLEDRB]
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david_ruiz
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Now here is the good news of the gospel ,the King is coming ,and He came ,and He enters our sinful,dirty hearts , AND He does the cleaning also. (without choking us with our own dirty dust) Amazing ,isn’t it ? Please ,no more false piety.Why would it* have to* be this way?
It was fitting that she be born without sin, but not required. God could have become incarnate in a peapod.
But, it was fitting that He come to be held in a vessel worthy of His Divinity.
Just like if the King of Siam were to come to my home it would be fitting that I clean my house. But I don’t “have to.”
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david_ruiz
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It was said in #688 and #691.It seems to match what you say ,the Church gave us scripture ,therefore anyone saved by scripture ,it is due to Catholic foundation /fathering etc…hence no “saved” outside of Catholic Church
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PRmerger
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Oh. You mean extra ecclesiam nulla salus? Outside the Church there is no salvation.
That’s a little different than what you are saying. Not to mention the Church is metaphorically our mother, not our father.
But, yes, outside the CC there is no salvation.
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