This is very Catholic of you to say!
Please elaborate, david. Who are you accusing of having false piety? And how was this demonstrated as being false to you?
This reminds me of the saying if it feels good do it! or perhaps Whatever works for you.
Hi lb hope you had a wonderful holiday. And actually she would have be conceived into sin like the rest of us, but something wonderful happened. At the second of her conception God saved her.
Yes. The Church believes that the fullness of God’s revelation to man exists in Christ. He gave to His Apostles all that we need to know. They, in turn, deposited all this “once for all to the saints”. The Church is the custodian of the fullness of God’s revelation to mankind.
Now you say you can continue to add as long as you do it ,of course basing it on something that already has been deposited ? My head is spinning ,Why can not I say Scriptural revelation has stopped ? And so has apostolic depositing stopped.**
Perhaps I did not express myself well? What is “added” is only our understanding of the once for all deposit of faith. Elements of the faith such as the canon of scripture, the term “Trinity” the nature of the hypostatic union, etc. These are developments of the One Faith that was passed down to us from the Apsotles. They are not “additions” to the doctrine, but reflect the development of our understanding of it.
david_ruiz:
The problem is that the IC was part of the original deposit, and SS was not.
Basically what you are saying is that Jesus is to weak or disinterested to keep His promises to the Church.
They relied upon Sacred Tradition because they recognized that it is the Word of God, and they believed (as we do today) that God is able to preserve His Word to the purpose for which He has sent it.
Same way the Jews preserved the revelation of God from the creation of Adam to the creation of the Torah. How did you think Moses got all those stories for the first part of Genesis? Do you realize how many thousands of years passed before it was written?
This is just a fantasy on your part. The heirarchy was developed and exercisingn for centuries prior to the canon.
The de-crimminalizaiton of Christianity in the Roman Empire preceeded the formation of the canon by an entire generation. I think you need a little more history under your belt here.
This is also a fantasy on your part, which is clear when you read the pre-nicean fathers. The faith was preserved through sacred tradition.
Really? can you give an example of this?
Any private revelation recieved by a saint, pope, or Dr . of the Church or any other private individual is not binding on the faithful. Only the doctrines we have received through public revelation, which closed at the death of the last Apostle, are binding on the faithful.
Sure - He could have set things up however He wanted. He chose to have a visible leadership, with authority, an hierarchy, discipline. The unity is visible in those He appointed.
Yes, and this revolved around the structure that Christ established.Irenaeus describes a visible Church, centered around the successors fo the Apostles, which preserves the doctrine of the faith through Sacred Tradition.
Not sure what that means “Petrine doctrine”?
You will have to explain this, since I am not following you here.
Unity resides only in Truth. To the extent that individuals do not adhere to the Truth, unity does not exist, or it is wounded. Second rate ideas and temporal powers are unable to achieve and maintain unity, especially the supernatural unity that only exists through the power of God.
JL First, there is no progression, Mary had no other children. Second, you have absolutely NO EVIDENCE Mary had other sons or daughters, you have simply set up a strawman. Third, It is you who must answer, your HOUSE question, showing others in Christ’s house, who were more than countrymen, kinsmen or relatives. I know of only two Mary and Joseph, neither REJECTED Christ, even if both had rejected Christ it still does not prove Mary had other sons or daughters… Fourth I knew that some of his brothers, kinsman, didn’t believe at first. I would have thought you would have understood that as elementary. The point is, Christ’s brothers, KIN, didn’t reject Christ and REMAIN in disbelief as Israel did. Even had Christ’s kin, to the last person, rejected him and died rejecting him, it does not prove Mary had other children. Some, if not ever last one of them, did become believers, they were in the upper room at Pentecost. Fifth, [GAL 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter and abode with him fifteen days 19 **But OTHER of the APOSTLES saw I none SAVE JAMES THE LORDS BROTHER ] The Apostle James, the Greater, ZEBEDEE’S SON is called the brother of the Lord. The Apostle James was Bishop of Jerusalem. He was not a literal brother of the Lord, as our Lord hand NO literal brothers. James was a kinsman and one of the original twelve apostles. This not only lays to rest your progression theory, but also the tradition of men that ALL the Lord’s so called literal brothers were unbelievers, hence Christ gave the care of Mary to John.
JL: Yes faith cometh by hearing, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 HOW SHALL THEY PREACH **EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?] How are they SENT? By the ONE VISIBLE FELLOWSHIP Christ SENT to teach the whole world till the end. Thru the sacrament of Holy Order or ordination. Sucessors by laying on of hands from apostles to bishops to bishops till the end.
That you (anyone) is more of a sinner than what God says ,so much so ,that for Him to come inside (as he did Mary),to cohabitate, can not happen unless one is special (immaculate).That He is Holy -true .That we are sinners -true .By grace ,not perfection ,He came into Mary -true.
Simple fact: The God of the universe , the creator of heaven and earth , entered a fallen earth. It was in the state of sin (missing the mark-not perfect anymore -Paul says even the earth is waiting for that great day to be restored ). So, God entered a sinful world , and was totally surrounded by a fallen world. It is immaterial that He had to be carried in “perfection”, for as soon as He was born , He entered a sinful world , surrounded by “fallen” elements. He became “dust” , and who knows where that dust had been before . He was still perfect , for dust does not defile , nor could a real, fallen Mary , for defilement comes from within. ( Remember the Pharisees fixation and attempts to be separated from"dust" ) ?Hi lb hope you had a wonderful holiday. And actually she would have be conceived into sin like the rest of us, but something wonderful happened. At the second of her conception God saved her.
Does that not sound like something God would do, Make the Mother of his only Son completely free from sin?
Now I asked this question before and it did not go over well, but think about what I am saying. If the Blessed Mother was touched by sin, then she could not be sinless and that sin would be passed onto Jesus right? Think what I am saying.
Now people have said but Jesus is God, and I said yes, and God can do anything. Especially make sure no sin touches his Mother also. Think about it!!
Not only Could God save the Blessed Mother from any kind of sin, would he, and did he. The answer is Yes!! That is a teaching that has been passed down from the beginning of the birth of Christ.
Same old debate, going back to 2nd ,3rd century, perhaps earlier .Tertullian said Peter was the rock does not mean there then must always be a supreme bishop.This is not a protestant /Catholic debate ,at least not in it’s origins.
You summed it up; she didn’t have to be born sinless, but it fits your scenario! God told Adam and Eve that hrist would be born of the seed of a woman! Being born of he seed of a man leads to being born into sin. Romans 5:12 says," Sin entered the world through one man," so that everyone who came after had the curse of sin!Why would it* have to* be this way?
It was fitting that she be born without sin, but not required. God could have become incarnate in a peapod.
But, it was fitting that He come to be held in a vessel worthy of His Divinity.
Just like if the King of Siam were to come to my home it would be fitting that I clean my house. But I don’t “have to.”
This is a man-made tradition you are espousing, david. For there are no Scriptures that state that “by grace, not perfection, he came into Mary.”
Then the non-believer will also tell you: Jesus didn’t have to come to earth through a virgin. He could have come as a grown man. He could have come as an alien. But it fits your scenario to say that he came through a virgin.
Yipes! This would include Jesus, then, if you’re proclaiming that “everyone” means, literally, every single person.Romans 5:12 says," Sin entered the world through one man," so that everyone who came after had the curse of sin!
That is right .I just made it up now ,the not perfection part . Nowhere in scripture does it say ,“by grace ,not perfection…”. Do we concur that what is "God said ",bona fide scripture is , “By grace…Mary…” There are also no scriptures that say Mary was perfect either .This is man-made.
But, david, it is YOUR paradigm that all things regarding God must be found in Scripture. And you are contradicting your own paradigm.
