Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[po18guy]

You are insinuating that I have a different God then the one you have. My God is the same God you have, you know the one who is for all people, the righteous and the sinners alike. Just because I don’t believe the same things you do, don’t mean I have a different God then the one you have. Why must you resort to this kind of talk? I have not said anything near what you have said here. I have not said that you’re God is too weak or impotent. Why because I have more respect then to say something like that to another person even if we disagree. It shows that you have no respect for others and being we have the same God it shows no respect for God.

I mean only to provoke you to thought. To test your theology. To question the depth of your theology. Catholics and Orthodox see your theology as being new on the face of this earth and as not squaring with that which traces directly back to Christ Himself, via His Apostles. Certainly we have the same God, but your concept of Him and how He works is vastly newer and different from the ancients faiths, both east and west.

 

[pablope]

This off topic discussion was taken from a thread that is now closed.

T.Catholics make the division of 3 classes.plain and simple .Of course we are all one ,has nothing to with 3 classes .Scripture tells me of Jesus the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek,and we are a priesthood. It says nothing of a separate ministerial priesthood.

This is totally possible ,that my experience in Christ is no guarantee of truth and Spirit. However , it may also be totally valid and that it still be questioned .The blind man that Jesus healed who said, “I was blind but now I see-(because of Jesus)” was quite right in experience and his theology, better than the established rabbis.

***,that my experience in Christ is no guarantee of truth and Spirit. ***

Why not? So you are implying that you can lose your Spirit in Christ. So how would one lose their truth and spirit in Christ? And now would one regain it?

 

[pablope]

guanophore;7240542:

Are you not a disciple of Christ ? There is no greater power than when one who has been faulted , prays for the transgressor . Look at Saul of tarsus and Stephen ,Christ on the Cross etc.

Sure, we are all disciples of Christ. But, let us say, you committed a crime, let us say murder. Would you voluntarily confess this crime, this sin, out of the goodness of your heart, to a cop, or to the family of the one murdered

It may be based upon the Cross, but jesus said be careful what you build upon His foundation. The confessional is a formalized middle man. Formality is good sometimes .And a brother is good sometimes .It reminds me of Peter at the transfiguration , wanting to remain there and make tabernacles.

Jesus knew of our nature, he knew our weaknesses…isn’t this why he instituted confession to the Apostles and their successors? I do not know of your background, but have you read of the Early Church Fathers, the successors to the Apostles, and who were taught by the Apostles, of their writings about this subject?

I would have to study that ,but I recall in places one follows the other .

Now that could be a good question, for indeed they are two different words , with different meanings .I believe the Greek manuscripts are better served with fault ,not sin."One to another "-how do you get “one to priest” out of that. Well, I think I know ,just disagree, and prefer the plain rendering-one to another ,you to me ,me to you ,the Body ,we are all one ,we are all disciples…

There was no confessional with the apostles .Was it not formalized in the 12th century ?

How do you know this for a fact? Do you have writings, studies to cite?

Good question.Have not thought about it .However ,I do not think they were isolated from reformers in the west.

 

[david_ruiz]

Hello david; The Rev.Kevin has not given a protestant response to my questions here; Can you answer them for me? How does a protestant forgive or retain another’s sin, without unbroken apostolic succession or the same anointing of laying of hands on them from the original Apostles as does both East and Roman Catholic church clergy?

How does a protestant retain sin from a confessed sin from a sinner?

You reference John 20 .Luke 34 is a cross reference ,where there are more than just the twelve,who were commissioned to preach the gospel ,for the remission of sins. I have read that either we must have astute powers to see in the heart as to what to remit or retain (Peter and Annanias )or the disciples ,the church proclaim remission conditionally-thru the gospel ,the shed blood " Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin " This satisfies scripture that says only God can forgive sins.You say it is Christ who forgives ,thru the priests acting as Christ .We say Christ forgives ,this being proclaimed by the Church. We confess to God ,as David did (no mention of apologizing to Bathsheba or Uriah 's family ) or Ezra 10:11" Make confession unto the Lord God…"…I have also heard that a closer study of the Greek reveals that what is done in heaven shall be done on earth ,that His kingdom is to take over this dark kingdom ,and the condition for remitting or retaining ,binding and loosing has been set by God himself ,and we are his finger here on earth thru which he binds .So it is done in heaven already , now let it be done here on earth. It is not like Peter decides what to bind or not and God then concurs…It is interesting that Jesus breathed on them the Holy Ghost ,and then gives the commission .Is not the only sin unto death ,or the only unforgiveable sin (retainable) blaspheming of the Holy Ghost ? So when they preached forgiveness of sins by the power of the Holy Ghost ,and one refused the message , whom were they refusing , even blaspheming , but the Holy Ghost ? …I do not think John 20 has anything to do with setting up a confessional system .Jesus was not saying ,"Go and hear everyone’s confession “,or even,” Judge the sins of the world ",to see what should be retained etc… Jesus was saying what would happen automatically (conditionally) ,when the gospel is preached . That was THE COMMISSION, preach the Gospel… So we do not hear confessions to retain. WE preach the truth of the gospel ,and let the chips fall where they may with retaining and forgiving, as recorded in heaven .

 

[david_ruiz]

Hello david; The Rev.Kevin has not given a protestant response to my questions here; Can you answer them for me? How does a protestant forgive or retain another’s sin, without unbroken apostolic succession or the same anointing of laying of hands on them from the original Apostles as does both East and Roman Catholic church clergy?

How does a protestant retain sin from a confessed sin from a sinner?

As far as 1st John ,although fascinating scripture on praying for a brother with sin, the inference is that the conditions for all this are preset, by God , in heaven and has nothing to do with confessing , forgiving , therefore probably not retaining either . Prayer can "move " God on behalf of a Christian in sin. To pray or not to pray or what to pray ,that is the question when there is a sin unto death . Even if we pray not ,His will is still that none perish .yet to have life something must die. Often we pray to remove the symptom (let us say smoking), when God wants the cause (not living in the Spirit). So it is with sin of death .Do we pray to remove sin and bring life , without first bringing proper alignment of spirit ? Paul says sometimes turn one over to Satan , but in hopes of final salvation. .Anyways , close but not quite pertinent to retaining, in my opinion.

 

[david_ruiz]

No.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 2:10[/BIBLEDRB]

Paul pardons .Seems like faults or things done specifically to the church or members .Do not see confessional here. As you know ,Paul had many detractors , form so called Christians .They needed sometimes correcting , rebuking ,chastening ,and I suppose “pardoning”.

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;7246996:

***,that my experience in Christ is no guarantee of truth and Spirit. ***

Why not? So you are implying that you can lose your Spirit in Christ. So how would one lose their truth and spirit in Christ? And now would one regain it?

Jesus said something similar ,in that can the testator testify of himself ,or is another needed …What I mean is that my experience is value for me ,and you , but , it is not what will win the day’s dabate .Same with your experience .I will listen , weigh it as evidence , but only God can confirm or judge, illuminate your experience for me. …I also myself can not trust “experience” ,in myself or anyone,by itself. A little like I had an experience with faith ,by hearing , but by hearing the Word of God. All must be in truth and spirit.

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;7247079:
Glad to see we are all disciples. ,We are trained to do likewise,as our teachers ,all the way back to the apostles .There are giftings ,and when perceived ,may be used ,ordained by the church (as in Acts).I disagree with formalizing ordaining before the gifts are evident,even already used .A disciple is a disciple is a disciple .Where do you get that a disciple can baptize and his "pupil " will not.

 

[BlueShadow123]

I don’t believe so. Id rather trust god to forgive my sins than a human.

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;7247079:
Yes we have weaknesses .How does that lead to confessional ? Why would it not lead to confess our faults one to another , to pray for one another ?

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;7247079:
You said nothing of the confessional starting around 12th century .Did it ?

 

[Cat_Herder]

You said nothing of the confessional starting around 12th century .Did it ?

Paul was hearing confessions in apostolic times, i.e. the 1st century. So there you have it.

 

[david_ruiz]

Did not John Chrysostom deny the need for the confessional ?

 

[KathleenGee]

The Irish started the confessional box.

In the earliest times, there weren’t alot actively receiving the sacrament of confession because every day they could lose their life for their faith. They did not let their neighbors know they attended Mass.

If they did commit a sin, – and they made oaths to not lie or steal or commit adultery – they had to repent before the assembly and take time to be brought back to The Secret, the name of the Eucharist in times of persecution.

The Vatican did not appear at Pentecost. There are Scriptural books, doctrines, conceptions, worship that took years to assemble and approve. That is because the Church was meant for everyone and thus it has a universal character.

 

[po18guy]

I don’t believe so. Id rather trust god to forgive my sins than a human.

Please explain why Christ gave authority over sin to His Apostles.

 

[Bub]

This off topic discussion was taken from a thread that is now closed.

Did you think this was different from what Catholics believe?

Do you mean you think there is a different Latin root word for “priest” than “presbyter”?

You may be thinking of “sacredote”? This would be the Latin equivalent for the OT priest,the hierus.

The NT reveals what was forshadowed in the Old. there is a High Priest, a ministerial priesthood, and the priesthood of all believers.

Well, this would be one foundation of the problem. There is only one priesthood in the NT, not “3 priests”. This One Priesthood is that of Christ, after the order of Melchizedek. All the rest of us, the priestly people, and the ministerial priests, are caught up and contained in the One.

I think that Hebrews makes plenty of references to the OT shadow, as well as the NT fulfillment. The priesthood after the order of Melchizedek is, indeed, a different kind of priesthood. It is not caste, lineage, or race based, and it is eternal.

There are many people who had this expereince. However, have you ever considered that your personal experience may not be the best plumbline for Truth?

Such a perspective is inconsistent with the Scriptures and the faith of the early Church.

Confession is a catholic strategy to keep people stuck with the church.

 

[Farsight001]

Confession is a catholic strategy to keep people stuck with the church.

In what way? I’ve heard this before, but I completely fail to understand how confession would effect such a thing. Perhaps you can connect the dots in this line of reasoning and explain? Because no one has bothered to before.

 

[rinnie]

pablope;7249325:

Glad to see we are all disciples. ,We are trained to do likewise,as our teachers ,all the way back to the apostles .There are giftings ,and when perceived ,may be used ,ordained by the church (as in Acts).I disagree with formalizing ordaining before the gifts are evident,even already used .A disciple is a disciple is a disciple .Where do you get that a disciple can baptize and his "pupil " will not.

We get that from the word of God david. That is where we get that. If we were all teachers of the word and had the gift of the Holy Spirit to teach why would we need a teacher here on earth. Are you saying the Holy Spirit does not have the power to teach us all the same thing then.

Or shall we go on the words of God and believe what he says not you, that the words, I will sent to you the Holy Spirit the advocate to teach you all truth. The words of Jesus david that the CHURCH is the PILAR OF ALL TRUTH.

So either the Holy Spirit does have the power to teach us all the same truth, but because Jesus did not set it up that way, he left us the Church to lead us, or as you claim that Priests do not have to be ordained and have the power of the Holy Spirit laid upon them by the laying of hands the way Jesus set it up.

And also if what you say is correct WHY then before Christ appeared to the Church on the day of Pentecost and did just that breathed the Holy Spirit FORMALIZING the Apostles as you say it, did they have no clue what to teach, nor understand anything. Why were they all Afraid then?

Why david was it before Pentecost they had no clue what to say or teach. Could you tell me why then?

Please explain this scripture to me david, Luke 24:45 Then he opened thier minds to understand scripture. If they did not need this why did he do it? Why did Jesus say in 49 And behold I AM SENDING the promise of my Father UPON YOU, but STAY in the city UNTIL you are CLOTHED with the POWER from ON HIGH.

Now are you claiming that you are clothed with the power of on high also? Or are you STILL claiming as you said that this formalizing as you call it is not needed. Because it is quite clear that Jesus said to say UNTIL it is received. Now why would he say that if it were not needed. Can you see why the Church teaches it now, simply because it IS the word of God, now why do you deny this.

Then when you continue on to the gospel of John 20:19 why is it david that they were afraid of the Jews. BUt then all of a sudden when he breathed on them as it is written and gave them this FORMALIZING as you call it, were they not afraid anymore?

Again in acts, why did he tell them to WAIT for the promise of the Father. What were they waiting for david? Could it possibly as the word of God states in acts that it was indeed the Spirit that enabled them to proclaim.

Now please explain also to me if we all can do these gifts given to the Apostles did they have to as Peter in acts What are we to do? If you are correct then should the Holy Spirit not have filled everyone not just the Apostles at Pentecost?

Why did Peter tell Repent and be baptised and then they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which they indeed did, but as the gospel also tells us, we all have different gifts given to us by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Why did Peter in Acts 11:12 Say to the people of Israel as he cured the man, why are you amazed at this, and why do you act as if we had made him walk by our own power.

 

[rinnie]

Confession is a catholic strategy to keep people stuck with the church.

I agree with you, It was a strategy that was started by Our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to stay stuck with him the CC the Living Christ.

And do you ever wonder, that it does work .

Because who else besides the CC claims to have this power? I have never heard the Protestant Church ever claim to have this power, simply because they know they did not receive it because they do not have Holy Orders.

You know what Peter said, If not please read it in Acts 5:29 But Peter and the apostles said in reply, We MUST OBEY GOD rather than MEN!! Read on and take advice (good advice may I add) from the Sanhedrin named Gamaliel in 34. Be careful what you are about to do to these men, (are these MEN not Priests of today), As the Sanhedrin stated you will not be able to destroy them, you may even find yoursleves fighting against God.

When you deny the power given to the Priests in the Sacrament of Holy Orders, and deny the power given to them by this to forgive sins in the name of Christ, are you not fighting against God. Something to think about!!

 

[rinnie]

In what way? I’ve heard this before, but I completely fail to understand how confession would effect such a thing. Perhaps you can connect the dots in this line of reasoning and explain? Because no one has bothered to before.

Simply farsight because confession can only be given in the CC. Where else can we go and be given absolution for our sins is we are in mortal sin besides the CC?