Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[Cat_Herder]

How could our sins seperate us from the body of Christ, the church, unless the body of Christ was sinlesss?

There are degrees of sin just as the body has degrees of illness.

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 5:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]

Christians are members of the body of Christ. All bodies experience various illnesses. Just because you have a zit on your arm it doesn’t mean the arm is no longer part of the body.

Let me ask you, do you think that the vs. you gave here are talking about penance? IOW do you think that if you “**Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, **” you are doing penance?
That if you “**let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.” ** or if you “Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord” you are doing penance?
So, you think that Zacheus, by giving back what he had stolen, was doing penance?

Yes

 

[Richard_Kastner]

There are degrees of sin just as the body has degrees of illness.

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 5:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]

Christians are members of the body of Christ. All bodies experience various illnesses. Just because you have a zit on your arm it doesn’t mean the arm is no longer part of the body.

This is all fine Cat, but it doesn’t answer the question. Pablope said

:
Our sins also offend and hurt God, and continue to do so if we sinners continue to commit sin. Sin not only separates us from God, it also separates the sinner from His Body, the Church…

Would this not mean that the church is sinless? And if the church is sinless then the individual members must be sinless.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So, you think that Zacheus, by giving back what he had stolen, was doing penance?

Yes

Really? So you think that restitution and penance are one and the same?

The priest stands in the person of Christ.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 2:10[/BIBLEDRB]

This from my commentary
Person of Christ. Rather, “presence of Christ,” or “before Christ.” There is no basis for concluding that either the apostle or the church had power to release the man from accountability for his sins before God. None but God could do that (see Mark 2:7–11). If the man had sincerely repented, God, according to His promise, had already forgiven him (Jer. 31:34; 1 John 1:9). Paul’s vote to forgive was simply the human acknowledgment that God had already pardoned him (see on Matt. 16:19). God has authorized His representatives on earth to assure the forgiveness of Heaven to every repentant soul.

 

[KathleenGee]

Richard,

Please re read my post. We confess our sins to Jesus Christ present in the sacrament of Holy Orders in His minister. The priest becomes the human face of Christ present among us.

 

[Nicea325]

Thats not the point. The bible clearly says that god is able to forgive us of our sins. why would I go to a priest and ask him for forgiveness if I can simply ask God?
I am NOT saying that priests cannot forgive, I’m simply saying why should I go to one INSTEAD of god?

It is the very point.The Bible is also very clear on what Jesus said:

Jesus told the apostles, “‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you **forgive the sins **of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’” (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)

Pretty clear to me,so why the confusion and denials?

 

[pablope]

pablope;7257907:

Well, actually you did. You said

How could our sins seperate us from the body of Christ, the church, unless the body of Christ was sinlesss?

Let me ask you, do you think that the vs. you gave here are talking about penance? IOW do you think that if you "**Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, **

" you are doing penance?
That if you “**let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.” ** or if you “Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord” you are doing penance?

So, you think that Zacheus, by giving back what he had stolen, was doing penance?

Hi, Richard,

*Our sins also offend and hurt God, and continue to do so if we sinners continue to commit sin. Sin not only separates us from God, it also separates the sinner from His Body, the Church… *

I was speaking here of the saving grace of God…and the community in general…for when we sin, we wound Christ’s body, and the members of the Church too…so we all suffer.

If you want to take this to a deeper level, may I suggest Hahn’s “Lord Have Mercy” for reading material.

*That if you “**let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.” *** or if you “Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord” you are doing penance?
So, you think that Zacheus, by giving back what he had stolen, was doing penance?
“Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord” you are doing penance?

Yes, that was his penance…and fourfold, did he say for defrauding…If you want further investigation, see King David’s sin and repentance accounts…what he did and how he felt, after Prophet Nathan confronted him…see psalm 51…one of the 7 penitential psalms ( 7, 32,38, 51,102,130,143)

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, and Our Lord gave us His church to keep us together…

The more Christians come back to the Church, the more Christ will bless us and restore us and our lives. But true restoration only comes with suffering…

Sin is separation from God and from each other. We need each other’s witness for Christ.

 

[pablope]

T John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Really? So you think that restitution and penance are one and the same?

This from my commentary
Person of Christ. Rather, “presence of Christ,” or “before Christ.” There is no basis for concluding that either the apostle or the church had power to release the man from accountability for his sins before God. None but God could do that (see Mark 2:7–11). If the man had sincerely repented, God, according to His promise, had already forgiven him (Jer. 31:34; 1 John 1:9). Paul’s vote to forgive was simply the human acknowledgment that God had already pardoned him (see on Matt. 16:19). God has authorized His representatives on earth to assure the forgiveness of Heaven to every repentant soul.

Is there any particular verse your commentary is talking about? Sorry, I am at a lost here…
Maybe you should also look at other commentaries…both from Catholics and other Protestants…to get counter views and help you come to a better understanding.

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

This from my commentary
Person of Christ. Rather, “presence of Christ,” or “before Christ.” There is no basis for concluding that either the apostle or the church had power to release the man from accountability for his sins before God. None but God could do that (see Mark 2:7–11). If the man had sincerely repented, God, according to His promise, had already forgiven him (Jer. 31:34; 1 John 1:9). Paul’s vote to forgive was simply the human acknowledgment that God had already pardoned him (see on Matt. 16:19). God has authorized His representatives on earth to assure the forgiveness of Heaven to every repentant soul.

The problem here is that it doesn’t address the plain meaning of the words spoken to the Apostles in the upper room. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven; whose sins you retain are retained. In other words Whatever sins the Apostles forgive are forgiven. Conversely, whatever sins the Apostles retain (i.e. hold bound, do not forgive, etc.) are not forgiven. There is nothing in there about preaching the Gospel, and nothing about proclaiming what God had already done. Specifically, the part giving the Apostles the power to retain the sins of others really goes against the sort of blanket forgiveness that you suggest.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[Cat_Herder]

This is all fine Cat, but it doesn’t answer the question. Pablope said

Would this not mean that the church is sinless? And if the church is sinless then the individual members must be sinless.

I answered your question. You just don’t like the answer, or you don’t understand it becaus your church has no concept of communion.

Really? So you think that restitution and penance are one and the same?

Restitution is part of penance. Or are you going to tell me that a bank robber can go straight to heaven without paying back the last cent? Besides contradicting Mt 5:26, your argument is a slippery slope that leads to the funny farm.

This from my commentary

Return your commentary for your money back. After all, you believe in sola scriptura and this is what scripture says:

“There he found a man named Aeneas, bedridden for eight years, who was paralyzed. And Peter said to him, ‘Aeneas, JESUS CHRIST HEALS YOU; rise and make your bed.’ And immediately he rose. And all the residents of Lydda and Sharon saw him, and they turned to the Lord.” Acts 9:33-35

 

[KathleenGee]

I think Cat Herder is nailing it here…we are called to communion.

 

[rev_kevin]

• Where does Jesus say you have to do penance?*

Luke 19:7-9 (King James Version)
7And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
**8And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
** 9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

James 4:7-10 (King James Version)

7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Where do you see penance in these verses?

 

[joandarc2008]

Originally Posted by pablope View Post
Where does Jesus say you have to do penance?

Luke 19:7-9 (King James Version)
7And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

James 4:7-10 (King James Version)

7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Where do you see penance in these verses?

I think maybe you have a misunderstanding of Penance as something that it is not. It is reparation for your sin very simply put. If the sin is against God then reparation is to God - if the sin is against man than reparation is to man.

 

[rev_kevin]

No need. He may not even know that his ordination is invalid.

Yes, but that is not what the instruction is about that Jesus gave to them about retaining and forgiving. That instruction is about sins against God, and against the Church.

Each person has gifts that are appropriate to their calling. No, most people do not have this authority.

You are right, it is not about your ordination, specifically, but it is about the authority that accompanies Holy Orders. And the condition of invalid ordination is relevant to the thread.

I agree with you. This is one of the main reasons that Jesus left people in a position of authority. It was not possible for the Bible to be “clear” on everything that was needed.

All those who were ordained by Christ were authorized to the ministries He gave them. He sent various persons on different missions. The Bible is not clear on who He laid hands on, either.

I agree, however, the Spirit revealed to the early Church that this was the method that was to be used. God can do whatever He wants, however He likes. He chose to work through the authority He appointed.

Really? Which other “men” were authorized to forgive sins in the name of God?
rev kevin;7243213:

There is only one man (Jesus) who can truely forgive sin.

Yes, and this is what the Church teaches. When those who are authorized by God do so, they do it in the person of Christ.

I am sorry you did not receive better instruction.

I’m not discussing my ordination. If you believe its invalid then to you its invalid. I know its not. I have been called to do the Lords work and that is what I will do. I will not discuss my ordination anymore.

 

[rev_kevin]

I think maybe you have a misunderstanding of Penance as something that it is not. It is reparation for your sin very simply put. If the sin is against God then reparation is to God - if the sin is against man than reparation is to man.

Ok I see what you are saying, but why does a priest tell you to do x amount of prayers instead of reparation to the person you sinned against? For example: I stold something from you, why don’t the priest say, since you stold this from this person you must return it or replace it with something better instead of saying do 10 Hail Maries, 10 Our Fathers?

 

[po18guy]

Even if a priest can forgive sins, why would somebody go to a priest to forgive sins when they could ask god at any time? They wouldn’t even have to leave their home to ask god for forgiveness. You can ask god at any time to forgive you. Why would they go ask somebody else if they could be forgiven right then and there by god himself? That, I don’t get…

Because the bible says that Jesus told them directly that their sins were forgiven. Have you ever heard those words? No. Then, how do you know your sins are gone? This is not a place to assume, since sin is the only thing that can separate you from God.

 

[joandarc2008]

Ok I see what you are saying, but why does a priest tell you to do x amount of prayers instead of reparation to the person you sinned against? For example: I stold something from you, why don’t the priest say, since you stold this from this person you must return it or replace it with something better instead of saying do 10 Hail Maries, 10 Our Fathers?

When one of us steals - we sin both against the person and against God. Against the person by the theft and against God by the breaking of the Commandments. I was not there (obviously) so I can only assume either a) the priest made a human error in not assigning a human error in restoration of the money as penance or b) the money or item had already been replaced

But either way the prayers should still exist as in breaking the Commandments we are also sinning against God.

 

[rev_kevin]

When one of us steals - we sin both against the person and against God. Against the person by the theft and against God by the breaking of the Commandments. I was not there (obviously) so I can only assume either a) the priest made a human error in not assigning a human error in restoration of the money as penance or b) the money or item had already been replaced

But either way the prayers should still exist as in breaking the Commandments we are also sinning against God.

When I was a Catholic and when I went to confession no matter what priest I went to they would tell me to say x amount of Hail Mary’s, x amount of Our Father’s or say the Rosary x amount of times. They never said to make restoration to any one. So every priest I went to was makeing a human error. Now I have been to many priests in confession though out my 30 plus years as a Catholic.

 

[rev_kevin]

Because the bible says that Jesus told them directly that their sins were forgiven. Have you ever heard those words? No. Then, how do you know your sins are gone? This is not a place to assume, since sin is the only thing that can separate you from God.

Trust, trust that God will forgive us of our sins?
How do you know that when a priest says your sins are forgiven that God has forgiven your sin? The priest could say they are forgiven but God may not forgive them.

 

[joandarc2008]

When I was a Catholic and when I went to confession no matter what priest I went to they would tell me to say x amount of Hail Mary’s, x amount of Our Father’s or say the Rosary x amount of times. They never said to make restoration to any one. So every priest I went to was makeing a human error. Now I have been to many priests in confession though out my 30 plus years as a Catholic.

I go to Confession weekly and I can tell you my experiences have been very different. Of course depending on your age your ability to make restitution may have been somewhat hampered by your minor status - a simple I’m sorry may have had to suffice. This is one for the Religious on the Boards - Brother JR or ByzCath as I was one going on two thirty years ago.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Because the bible says that Jesus told them directly that their sins were forgiven. Have you ever heard those words? No. Then, how do you know your sins are gone? This is not a place to assume, since sin is the only thing that can separate you from God.

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9).

“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.” (Acts 3:19)

I’m pretty sure god has forgiven me of my sins. If you want to try and refute me, you can, but if you do, we’re going to have to settle on agree to disagree. Thanks.