Fair enough.
And how is it that they would fulfill the eating of this “new Lamb”?
How does one know his sins are forgiven with certainty?
Indeed. This is a very Catholic statement you’ve made, david.
Ok.
Where did Jesus say this could happen–that we would lie down with lions?
Exactly. And that is unbliblical. It’s a man-made tradition that you never read in any pages of Scripture, but have only been told this by your fallible pastor or by perhaps another fallible congregant.
:tiphat:
So the question is still unanswered: how does a Protestant, who does not have the sacrament of Reconciliation, know with certainty that his sins are forgiven?
Perhaps you should change your approach and say “warn”, then people like me wouldnt jump on that, since I tend to be overly… aggressive at times.
See, this is the point where we both have the infamout “tu quoque” reply. I see this in you and you see this in me. I see John 3:5 stating the absolute necessity of baptism for entry into the beatific vision (heaven) while you see it as accepting the holy spirit. “Slight biblical inference” can be argued both ways.
Yes, all authority originates with God and emanates from Him through His Church. The bible can, by definition, have no authority. It can be inerrant. It can be the “norm” for all doctrine and tradtion, but it cannot have authority since authority is dependant on teachings which are dependant on a person actively teaching. Dont take this as an attempt to denigrate the bible in any way, I hold the bible as one of my pillars of faith (another thread, another time) as I am taught by the Church.
There is a true story a priest I listen to tells. His friend was working in Helena Montana at an auto parts store when at closing time one day a car pulled up. Out bounced two very attractive young women who asked him for some help with their car. Turns out their muffler was dragging on the pavement and when he offere to fix it for free they said “Thanks! Im not sure it would have lasted another 6 hours worth of driving!” He said that it definitely would NOT have lasted another 6 hours and asked where they were headed. They said Los Angeles. He told them that they were in Helena Montana and there was no way that they could possibly make it to LA in 6 Hours. They said “Look, we left LA, drove 16 hours to Salt Lake, and have been driving 10 hours. That leaves 6 more” with some petulance. When he got out a map and explained where they were and what had happened they were appalled.
I can answer the first part
I would love to see a single example where either Peter or Paul said "I, on my authority, forgive your sins. The authority to forgive sins rests solely with God, which the Jews so aptly shown us in Scripture; after all it is God who paid the price to reconcile true believers to Himself and therefore it is He who has the responsibility, authority and care to justify the ungodly by the atoning work of Jesus for the total remission of sins to whosoever will. Why? For the very reason He created; for His glory.
Same way as indicated subtly in John 6 ,by believing that He is, and is the One,the Messiah ,the Son of God, the Lamb of God, as confessed by Peter ,hence no further explanation from Jesus.
It is good that you see this. The Catholic priests do not forgive on their own authority either.
This is very Catholic of you to say this, Jenny!
So aborted babies, the mentally infirm, and children who meet an untimely earthly end do not have life within them because they never had a chance to “believe?”
Everyone’s sins are forgiven when they believe?
I ask them of you who have divorced yourself from the faith taught by the Apostles.
Says that you must either
Indeed. This is a very Catholic statement you’ve made, david.
Ok.
This is quite chilling, david.
You made me think and try to remember discusions on these verses.Some say "water " is for baptism (John’s baptism-?) - could be. Some say it is the Word as Peter infers (1 Peter 1:23) - maybe. Some say it refers to fleshly birth -the breaking of water -the mother’s , most probable .He cites two things to be born from or of (water and spirit) ,and two things are born( flesh and spirit).Flesh is definitely born of water.Many protestants also believe in the necessity of water baptism . I do not , except as a matter of obedience or as stated earlier ,a positive “reaction” to his already "goodness ".
Again ,what is more important is to have it right , and who is our teacher . I will repeat ,"He is our teacher ". He bears witness to any truth respective and irrespective of it’s source or authority.
and His church is the Body , of which we are a part of.
I know what you mean but am I so entwined in our debate that I do not see the full shock of such a statement . It sounds half Gnostic - setting up a methodology of it’s understanding that is not universal , but limited to special “revelators” .The bible, God’s Word , Jesus’s words, are fully authoratative and God says so .I think you agree, and authority is maybe not the word you mean .I think you mean scripture has full authority , but that it can not be self interpreted, which I agree.
.I shortened your quote ,hopefully ok. I know what you mean.You believe that person who teaches is the church .I believe it is more universal ,that indeed He uses the church , the body , but He deals directly with each individual and teaches them. Peter had the one true religion , the one true book (bible-o.t.), full of rabbis and a kind of magisterium. He even had God in the flesh next to him , yet for a time it was not enough. Finally , what put all those good things together and brought life to his dead spiritual sight was , was DIVINE REVELATION -"The Father in heaven has revealed this to you ". That is why Augustine could say he loved the catholic church and Jerome , the preacher/teacher , but also that "He (God) teaches us " (as in ALL of us), and also speaks of the beautiful authority of scripture , for ALL men , easily accessible and read .
In a way ,we all have been “laid hands on” at confirmation to be a soldier for Christ .I do not interpret anything personally but what the general dictates ,but no I am not perfect in that .He promises to burn off any wood ,hay or stubble,and to chastise here and now. He says His field has the good and the bad in it .His field is not perfect,but he will sort it out in the end ,His true Bride will come forth pure,but for now…the good ,the bad ,the ugly ,all seemingly His church …it is late .Thank-you .I appreciate your dignified tone with me.
Yuppers. Spot on here in your fear of this paradigm. It is one of the reasons I fled home across the Tiber as if the devil was on my tail.
Then who is your teacher? And you really shouldnt say the bible here, since the bible is a (relatively) static document which lacks the required faculties (namely the ability to perform any action, verb, of which teach is but one commonly attributed to inanimate objects in a misplaced desire to apply anthropomorphic values to them).
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 12:21[/BIBLEDRB]
Nope, I meant what I said.
The only definition we could use for “Authority” for the Bible would be #4, and that would negate the use of all others. Authority is equivalent in its misuse to “infallibility”. For both to work, the subject to which they are being applied needs to have the faculties to ACT (in the one case the ability to make decisions and in the other the ability to make incorrect statements). Since the Bible can do neither, it can not be “authoritative” in any sense other than the referential (The Bible IS most definitely an authoritative reference for all things which Christ said and which were then recorded, but we DO have other sources of knowledge regarding what Christ taught, i.e. the Church).
Fair enough.
Absolutely. I am in no way attempting to bring about conversion. I am simply attempting to show you a more orthodox hermeneutic which may help to bring you back to a more authentic understanding of Scripture and of Christ. Please believe me when I tell you that I was rabidly anti-Catholic and it was only the Holy Spirit that finally managed to convert me with the spiritual equivalent of a sledgehammer shot to the back of the head.
First, Augustine would be appalled at your not capitalizing Catholic. He fought long and hard for his faith (which I have come to accept) and was one of the most eloquent men ever to walk the earth… His reply would be scathing IMHO.
Ummmm… For the record David, this is pretty much exactly the Catholic interpretation of our lives, just in an abridged version.
They never had a chance to reject either .Or be baptized ? Is that why infant baptism took time to catch on, that it was not from the beginning(because you had to believe) ? Whatever happened to Limbo, that is what the Catholic Church taught me .
It is a paradigm the Lord expounded on,that it exists, and beware .Yes ,very chilling ,and hopefully to the one whose shoes it fits.