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JamestheOlder
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Agreed!
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ciero
Guest
I agree it is something we should pray happens…but should we also start demanding the bishops drop the politics and get unity now?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
If the laity start acting united, then the Bishops will see that God has acted and has shown them the signs. Unfortunately, the laity themselves have been, in most cases, propagating the schism. Most of us unfortunately don’t see each other as equals in the faith. Many still claim to have theological supremacy over the other.
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AveChriste11
Guest
Things are going in the right direction, the Pan-Orthodox committee which has been having ongoing discussions with representatives from the Vatican these past several years (as you have read on the various reports). They have concluded that the Bishop of Rome has a universal primacy, but the question must be asked “What exactly does that entail, or even mean?” granted there are certain issues.
There is an Apostolic cannon that says the Pope of Rome can do nothing without his brother Bishops. Neither can the Bishops, do anything without His Holiness the Pope. So we acknowledge a universal primacy, but there is still a ways to go… as you can imagine there are problems even glancing at the texts of Vatican I, and Vatican II which would almost seem to contradict the cannon I’m referring to.
His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew has most certainly borrowed terminology from Pope John Paul the II, and has spoken of the Roman Catholic Church as a “sister church” in the past. That much I have gathered from internet reports, not the least of which are Youtube clips of him speaking.
I recommend that people should say an Akathist, or a rosary every day. Ultimately only the Theotokos herself, working with the help of Jesus Christ… can bring us together again – and bring clarity and peace to my “Hyperdox” brothers… who would see such dialogue as being evil. However, they forget… no one ever said anything about the Orthodox compromising the faith. We will cooperate, but the time for communion has not yet come…
Lord have mercy, Kyrie eleison. Christ have mercy, Christe eleison.
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hazcompat
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from st. cyprian in the 3rd century De unitate ecclesiae
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me a sinner. (100 times)
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- If any one consider and examine these things, there is no need for lengthened discussion and arguments. There is easy proof for faith in a short summary of the truth. The Lord speaks to Peter, saying, “I say unto thee, that thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” And again to the same He says, after His resurrection, “Feed my sheep.” And although to all the apostles, after His resurrection, He gives an equal power, and says, “As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you: Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they shall be remitted unto him; and whose soever sins ye retain, they shall be retained;” yet, that He might set forth unity, He arranged by His authority the origin of that unity, as beginning from one. Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity. Which one Church, also, the Holy Spirit in the Song of Songs designated in the person of our Lord, and says, “My dove, my spotless one, is but one. She is the only one of her mother, elect of her that bare her.” Does he who does not hold this unity of the Church think that he holds the faith? Does he who strives against and resists the Church trust that he is in the Church, when moreover the blessed Apostle Paul teaches the same thing, and sets forth the sacrament of unity, saying, “There is one body and one spirit, one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God?”
(5) And this unity we ought firmly to hold and assert, especially those of us that are bishops who preside in the Church, that we may also prove the episcopate itself to be one and undivided. Let no one deceive the brotherhood by a falsehood: let no one corrupt the truth of the faith by perfidious prevarication. The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole. The Church also is one, which is spread abroad far and wide into a multitude by an increase of fruitfulness. As there are many rays of the sun, but one light; and many branches of a tree, but one strength based in its tenacious root; and since from one spring flow many streams, although the multiplicity seems diffused in the liberality of an overflowing abundance, yet the unity is still preserved in the source. Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree,-when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated. Her fruitful abundance spreads her branches over the whole world. She broadly expands her rivers, liberally flowing, yet her head is one, her source one; and she is one mother, plentiful in the results of fruitfulness: from her womb we are born, by her milk we are nourished, by her spirit we are animated.
The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me a sinner. (100 times)
peace
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
What a wonderful post!
Kudos to you, my brother or sister in Christ!
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twf
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The official position of the Catholic Church is that we are indeed “in communion” with the Orthodox Churches, but in an “imperfect” manner… by definition, if one has valid sacraments, one must in some way be in communion with the Catholic Church, for theologically all grace, and thus all sacraments/mysteries, flow from the Head, Christ, through His one body the Church.
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I_Thirst
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Thanks for that, twf!
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Sepp
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Speaking from an Orthodox perspective, I would qualify this. In my experience, the view that sacramental grace only exists within the Orthodox Church is quite common. For example, it seems to be the position of the monks of Mount Athos. To them, there are serious matters of faith at the root of the separation.
I don’t mean to be a wet blanket, but I think it is important to understand that this view is sincerely held by many Orthodox. Some become quite offended at the suggestion that it’s all “just politics,” and I think this can be harmful to actual dialogue if great care is not taken.
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Phillip_Rolfes
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The same can be said for many Roman Catholics. There are, indeed, Roman Catholics out there who believe that only the Catholic Church has valid Sacraments and has sacramental grace. Heck, there are Roman Catholics out there who believe that unless every person is baptized Catholic (i.e. enrolled in a parish registery), then they have no hope of salvation. But these tend to be very misguided Catholics. Usually they’re very zealous for the Faith, but haven’t yet had enough proper formation within the Faith.
Can the same be said about many Orthodox? I ask merely because I do not know.
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ciero
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Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut Sepp! I wonder how seriously those who hold the opinion that there is no grace in the Catholic communion are in that belief? I hear it over and over here on the net, but rarely encounter it in face to face encounters with real live Orthodox folks. I also find that those who hold this opinion are mostly converts to Orthodoxy from Protestantism and they tend to bring their anti catholic baggage with them. Even in my experience with monks on Mt. Athos, Mt Sinai, and throughout Russia my experience has been these holy monks are much more open to re union then you keep hearing here on the net. I keep coming back to the conclusion…the big problem is we have been separated for so long we no longer know each other. We need to learn to love each other like true brethren again.
Lord have mercy!
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Hesychios
Guest
Well I am inclined to agree with the you, and with that bishop. I have many Roman Catholic relatives and personal friends (and my cyber-friends, of course
), and I am definitely not worried about their prospects of salvation (as if the affiliation itself is enough do them in, or that somehow their sacraments will fail them).However I note that it is the Roman Catholic church which has taken the firm stand that Orthodox Mysteries (sacraments) are valid, if nonetheless illicit, and written it this position into the catechism (I don’t know if or how it appears in the canons). Holy Orthodoxy has not been as formally committal about Roman Catholic sacraments, and really it need not be.
Orthodox are not as fixated on the concept of validity of something beyond the actual bounds of the known church. It seems to me the priority of Orthodox is on an interest in what is taught outside the bounds of the church, that is the key to unity. I assume that the question of ‘validity’ in sacraments and indwelling Grace and all that stuff will have to follow and work itself out once all are satisfied that the important teachings are held in common and the differences are not important.
So the concept of the two already being in eucharisitic communion for Orthodox resides in the realm of personal opinion, which is widespread although certainly not unanimous.
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Alveus_Lacuna
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As an Orthodox I will jump in and say that our traditional response is that we simply do not know if there is sacramental grace outside of the Orthodox Church. I would say that there might be an economic grace at work, but honestly I don’t see how sacramental grace specifically can exist outside of the Church. But I’m not about to judge a billion Christians in the world based on my own theological musings on an internet board. But the traditional teaching is that the Roman Catholic church is indeed in heresy (as many local councils have stated), and that we cannot verify sacramental grace. That is up to God, and as others have noted, there is less concern for “validity” anyway.
Most Orthodox who understand the terms wouldn’t consider “valid but illicit” a compliment anyway. My hope is that there is an abundance of grace for Roman Catholics, but in my heart of hearts I can not and will not support the notion that there is definite and full sacramental grace in the Roman Catholic rites. I still know in my heart of hearts that the fullness of the truth resides in Orthodoxy alone.
Most Orthodox who understand the terms wouldn’t consider “valid but illicit” a compliment anyway. My hope is that there is an abundance of grace for Roman Catholics, but in my heart of hearts I can not and will not support the notion that there is definite and full sacramental grace in the Roman Catholic rites. I still know in my heart of hearts that the fullness of the truth resides in Orthodoxy alone.
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Hesychios
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I agree.
It is insulting, and incorrect, because the Papacy has no right whatsoever to pass judgment on Orthodox Mysteries nor to claim the authority to legitimize the sacraments of Orthodox.
There is no question of licity of Orthodox Mysteries, they are confected by Orthodox bishops who are the proper ministers of them.
But still, I think it is possible to discuss these concepts calmly and rationally without letting our personal feelings interfere with dialog.
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ConstantineTG
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I don’t think Orthodox Sacraments are viewed as illicit. I could be wrong but unless someone points to a Catholic proclamation that says so. The Catholic Church cannot declare something to be illicit something that is not within its jurisdiction. What is licit and illicit depends on the law, and the Orthodox is not under Catholic canon law. Though the CC may say that it is illicit for Catholics to receive from the Orthodox, that would be a valid point. But I haven’t heard that one either.
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louis91766
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Oh really?
Well it is insulting to Catholics to be told by many Orthodox that the Pope is an unbaptised layperson running around in a costume pretending he is a priest when he is not, and in general, Catholics are not baptised Christians since they have not been baptised by triple immersion. Further Catholics are told that their Eucharist is null and void and without grace since no one (of Catholics) is baptised in the first place and in the second place Catholic priests are only laypeople, and their ordination is without grace. And these Orthodox bring up the question of the Anglican priesthood, which Catholics and Orthodox both agree is invalid. They say, see this: Catholics say that the Anglican priesthood is invalid, so why should Catholics be upset if the Orthodox say the same thing about the Catholic priesthood?
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Hesychios
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wow
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ConstantineTG
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I’ve never heard an Orthodox person claim such a thing.
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The_Idiot
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well - I’m sorry you have met such Orthodox folk.
I have many Orthodox Friends and I’m proud to call them good friends and I’ve never heard a statement like that from any of them. In fact I think if any of them heard another Orthodox Christian saying such a thing they would be horrified
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louis91766
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Yes. You are right in one way. However, Mr. Heyschios brought up the idea of Catholic teaching insulting Orthodox. In a sense, what I mentioned may not be official Orthodox teaching, but I have read things like this from Orthodox who hold this view and firmly insist that there is no grace outside the Orthodox Church. I notice that he did not dispute what I wrote. Was it Catholics or Orthodox on this thread who disputed what I wrote? I think it was Catholics. I don;t see any sense in trying to cover up things in dialog, especially when the other side says that Catholics are insulting them. Catholics have always respectfully maintained that the Orthodox Sacraments (or Mysteries) are valid, without exception. However, this is not true of the other side. Although some Orthodox recognised Catholic Sacraments, others do not and from what I understand there is no official view on this.
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