Do Catholics and Orthodox already share Eucharistic communion?

[ConstantineTG]

Yes. You are right in one way. However, Mr. Heyschios brought up the idea of Catholic teaching insulting Orthodox. In a sense, what I mentioned may not be official Orthodox teaching, but I have read things like this from Orthodox who hold this view and firmly insist that there is no grace outside the Orthodox Church. I notice that he did not dispute what I wrote. Was it Catholics or Orthodox on this thread who disputed what I wrote? I think it was Catholics. I don;t see any sense in trying to cover up things in dialog, especially when the other side says that Catholics are insulting them. Catholics have always respectfully maintained that the Orthodox Sacraments (or Mysteries) are valid, without exception. However, this is not true of the other side. Although some Orthodox recognised Catholic Sacraments, others do not and from what I understand there is no official view on this.

He didn’t dispute it but decided in charity perhaps not to reply besides “wow” which denotes that he’s astonished, in a very negative way, how you delivered your message. And as is pointed out earlier, the Orthodox do not have the concept of “valid or not valid”, but rather what is outside of Orthodoxy they are not sure of. For example, they “rebaptize” not because they do not think other baptisms are invalid, but because they are not sure and think that they can never be sure what is valid or not outside the Church. There is this saying, “we know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not.” Basically you know what you have is real, you are not sure if what others have is real or not. There is no conclusive decision on it nor do they think they can make one.

 

[louis91766]

He didn’t dispute it but decided in charity perhaps not to reply besides “wow” which denotes that he’s astonished, in a very negative way, how you delivered your message. And as is pointed out earlier, the Orthodox do not have the concept of “valid or not valid”, but rather what is outside of Orthodoxy they are not sure of. For example, they “rebaptize” not because they do not think other baptisms are invalid, but because they are not sure and think that they can never be sure what is valid or not outside the Church. There is this saying, “we know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not.” Basically you know what you have is real, you are not sure if what others have is real or not. There is no conclusive decision on it nor do they think they can make one.

Oh, I wish it were true, but it is not. Notice that Mr. Heysechios did not dispute what I said. It was only the Catholics, who are hoping for warm and cordial relations with Orthodox. Here is a quote from an Orthodox site:
"Since Roman Catholics are without the Grace of Orthodoxy, not only their baptisms, but **all of their sacraments are invalid **within the Orthodox Church. "
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/maximos_reply.aspx

 

[Hesychios]

Oh, I wish it were true, but it is not. Notice that Mr. Heysechios did not dispute what I said. It was only the Catholics, who are hoping for warm and cordial relations with Orthodox. Here is a quote from an Orthodox site:
"Since Roman Catholics are without the Grace of Orthodoxy, not only their baptisms, but **all of their sacraments are invalid **within the Orthodox Church. "
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/maximos_reply.aspx

Well, first of all you do not know me and you do not speak for me.

I don’t personally know anyone in the Orthodox community that says most of these things. But I was very impressed how you lost it right after I made a point of saying " I think it is possible to discuss these concepts calmly and rationally without letting our personal feelings interfere with dialog".

The one exception I will say is the last point you make: “They say, see this: Catholics say that the Anglican priesthood is invalid, so why should Catholics be upset if the Orthodox say the same thing about the Catholic priesthood?”

I mean, it is a good point. Grandmother used to say what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. But I would just say that if you think they are valid for you that should be sufficient for you. You should not be looking to the Orthodox (nor anyone else) to validate your ministries and sacraments.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well, first of all you do not know me and you do not speak for me.

I don’t personally know anyone in the Orthodox community that says most of these things. But I was very impressed how you lost it right after I made a point of saying " I think it is possible to discuss these concepts calmly and rationally without letting our personal feelings interfere with dialog".

The one exception I will say is the last point you make: “They say, see this: Catholics say that the Anglican priesthood is invalid, so why should Catholics be upset if the Orthodox say the same thing about the Catholic priesthood?”

I mean, it is a good point. Grandmother used to say what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. But I would just say that if you think they are valid for you that should be sufficient for you. You should not be looking to the Orthodox (nor anyone else) to validate your ministries and sacraments.

I think a lot of people get caught up in the, “they did it to us, we should do it to them.” Many get offended of feel bad when they get the notion that the Orthodox would even question validity of Catholic Sacraments on the basis that we recognize the Orthodox Sacraments as valid, therefore they should recognize ours. We have to understand that the perspective on the same issue from the two sides are very different.

 

[ciero]

Oh really?
Well it is insulting to Catholics to be told by many Orthodox that the Pope is an unbaptised layperson running around in a costume pretending he is a priest when he is not, and in general, Catholics are not baptised Christians since they have not been baptised by triple immersion. Further Catholics are told that their Eucharist is null and void and without grace since no one (of Catholics) is baptised in the first place and in the second place Catholic priests are only laypeople, and their ordination is without grace. And these Orthodox bring up the question of the Anglican priesthood, which Catholics and Orthodox both agree is invalid. They say, see this: Catholics say that the Anglican priesthood is invalid, so why should Catholics be upset if the Orthodox say the same thing about the Catholic priesthood?

BOY!! As someone who has been working for Catholic Orthodox unity for well over 20 years I have NEVER met an Orthodox who said any of that rubbish. Now you can find them on the net, I at least have never met one of them, even the monks I have met and spoken with on Mt Athos, Mt Sinai in Greece, Russia and the Holy Land have NEVER said anything as harsh as that. They all acknowledge there are issues that divide us and that they need to be dealt with, but none have been as ignorant to say anything that comes close to what was quoted above.

Lord have mercy!!

 

[louis91766]

But I was very impressed how you lost it right after I made a point of saying " I think it is possible to discuss these concepts calmly and rationally without letting our personal feelings interfere with dialog".

I haven’t really lost anything Mr. Hesychios. Here is what you said:

It is insulting, and incorrect, because the Papacy has no right whatsoever to pass judgment on Orthodox Mysteries nor to claim the authority to legitimize the sacraments of Orthodox…

Instead of responding with “wow”, I would prefer a rational discussion as to why Orthodox have the right to pass judgment on Catholic Sacraments, but it is insulting and incorrect when Catholics pass judgment on Orthodox Mysteries because the Papacy has no right to do so.
"Since Roman Catholics are without the Grace of Orthodoxy, not only their baptisms, but all of their sacraments are invalid within the Orthodox Church. "
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/maximos_reply.aspx

 

[louis91766]

BOY!! As someone who has been working for Catholic Orthodox unity for well over 20 years I have NEVER met an Orthodox who said any of that rubbish. Now you can find them on the net, I at least have never met one of them, even the monks I have met and spoken with on Mt Athos, Mt Sinai in Greece, Russia and the Holy Land have NEVER said anything as harsh as that. They all acknowledge there are issues that divide us and that they need to be dealt with, but none have been as ignorant to say anything that comes close to what was quoted above.

Lord have mercy!!

Please see the quote and linked site.
Thanks:
"Since Roman Catholics are without the Grace of Orthodoxy, not only their baptisms, but all of their sacraments are invalid within the Orthodox Church. "
Is this an insult to Catholics or not? Catholics respectfully recognise the validity of all of the Eastern Orthodox Mysteries, but what is the position of the Eastern Orthodox on Catholic baptism by sprinkling for example? According to the Orthodox information site, they do not recognise Catholic baptisms.

 

[ciero]

Please see the quote and linked site.
Thanks:
"Since Roman Catholics are without the Grace of Orthodoxy, not only their baptisms, but all of their sacraments are invalid within the Orthodox Church. "
Is this an insult to Catholics or not? Catholics respectfully recognise the validity of all of the Eastern Orthodox Mysteries, but what is the position of the Eastern Orthodox on Catholic baptism by sprinkling for example? According to the Orthodox information site, they do not recognise Catholic baptisms.

Where is the linked site? I would like to know just who this quote is from. I know many former RC who have become Orthodox…NOT ONE WAS RE BAPTIZED.

 

[ciero]

Allowing this group to speak for Orthodoxy is like letting the SSPX speak for the RCC.
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/maximos_reply.aspx
Get real!!

I know a RC layman who joined this group…he was received by profession of faith! So much for their hardline. No batism no chrismation…just recite the creed…

 

[louis91766]

Allowing this group to speak for Orthodoxy is like letting the SSPX speak for the RCC.

I don’t see where they have ever been excommunicated from the Orthodox Church and every indication is that they are in good standing with the Orthodox Church. This is not the situation of the SSPX in the RCC.

 

[ciero]

I don’t see where they have ever been excommunicated from the Orthodox Church and every indication is that they are in good standing with the Orthodox Church. This is not the situation of the SSPX in the RCC.

They are old calendarists in communion with nobody!

 

[louis91766]

They are old calendarists in communion with nobody!

Doesn’t all of the Russian Orthodox Church use the Old Calendar? Also, have you heard of the great Orthodox saint, St. Mark of Ephesus? Here’s what he had to say:
“The Latins are not only schismatics but heretics… we did not separate from them for any other reason other than the fact that they are heretics. This is precisely why we must not unite with them unless they dismiss the addition from the Creed filioque and confess the Creed as we do.“
And what do you say about Metropolitan Athanasios? orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasios_of_Limassol
“In an interview published today, 23 May 2010, in the Cypriot newspaper Phileleftheros, Metropolitan Athanasios distanced himself from the Archbishop’s decision to host the Pope in Cyprus. The following are excerpts from the interview:
“For us Orthodox, the Pope is a heretic, outside of the Church, and, hence, not even a bishop…”
02varvara.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/metropolitan-athanasios-of-limassol-speaks-out-on-theupcoming-visit-of-the-pope-of-rome-to-cyprus/

 

[AveChriste11]

Doesn’t all of the Russian Orthodox Church use the Old Calendar? Also, have you heard of the great Orthodox saint, St. Mark of Ephesus? Here’s what he had to say:
“The Latins are not only schismatics but heretics… we did not separate from them for any other reason other than the fact that they are heretics. This is precisely why we must not unite with them unless they dismiss the addition from the Creed filioque and confess the Creed as we do.“
And what do you say about Metropolitan Athanasios? orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasios_of_Limassol
“In an interview published today, 23 May 2010, in the Cypriot newspaper Phileleftheros, Metropolitan Athanasios distanced himself from the Archbishop’s decision to host the Pope in Cyprus. The following are excerpts from the interview:
“For us Orthodox, the Pope is a heretic, outside of the Church, and, hence, not even a bishop…”
02varvara.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/metropolitan-athanasios-of-limassol-speaks-out-on-theupcoming-visit-of-the-pope-of-rome-to-cyprus/

Louis, I believe Ciero is referring to some among we Orthodox such as the HOCNA (Holy Orthodox Church of North America), the Old Calendarist Greeks… etc. who broke off relations with the Ecumenical Patriarch due to the ongoing ecumenical dialogues with His Holiness, the Pope.

All of the quotes you mention, Orthodox are allowed to have various opinions upon. However it really does no good to dwell on what once was, all of the negativity that has come from both sides of the fence. This is something that also goes true, for all of our efforts with our non-Chalcedonian Orthodox neighbors. See orthodoxunity.org

 

[louis91766]

All of the quotes you mention, Orthodox are allowed to have various opinions upon. However it really does no good to dwell on what once was, all of the negativity that has come from both sides of the fence. This is something that also goes true, for all of our efforts with our non-Chalcedonian Orthodox neighbors. See orthodoxunity.org

Well, I was not the one who brought up the idea that Catholics are insulting Orthodox. As you know, Catholics respectfully recognise the Orthodox Mysteries.
As far as union between EO and OO, of course, I hope it goes well. However, I thought that this thread was about union or intercommunion between EO and RC?

 

[Formosus]

Louis, what exactly is the point in bringing all these examples? To cry about how some voices in Orthodoxy don’t like the west or don’t beleive our Mysteries to be valid? To complain because one Orthodox poster expressed disappointment that the Catholic church viewed Orthodox sacraments as illicit? Does it help anyone spiritually to have this kind of argument?

Simply put there are extreme voices in Roman Catholicism who say similar things as some of the people you quoted here about the Orthodox. Don’t let such talk bother you or take it personally. Just my two cents.

 

[1inICXC]

Here is how it is:

The Excommunicationes were LIFTED TWICE by the Pope and the Patriarch of Greece in the 60s. The Orthodox proceeded as if nothing happened…

Today:
Some Orthodox are in Communion and they accept that Catholic Communion is valid. the Patriarvh of Alexandria for instance is known to give Communion to Catholics and Orthodox alike, others do not. While Dh And I were Orthodox we were told it was a SIN to receive Communion in the Catholic church. Other Orthodox priests said differently.

Many Orthodox believe that the Catholics are not even Christians and that they cannot be saved, other Orthodox view us as their sister church. Patriarch Kirill referred to the 2 lungs of the Church.

It is very difficult to ever come to any conclusion anout Orthodoxy because they do not have a centralized teaching.

Of course, you pose a great question. If Jesus is Jesus why can we be united with Him in one house but not in the other.

For instance, that same priest who told us it is a sin tomreceive Communion in The Catholic church agreed that my Catholic baptism is valid. It’s like the pro choicers who believe murder is bad, but killing the baby in the womb is ok- completely irrational and a VERY GRAVE SIN!

If we truly loved Jesus we would never live and foster this division!

 

[louis91766]

Here is how it is:
…
Many Orthodox believe that the Catholics are not even Christians and that they cannot be saved,…

That is why I don;t think it makes too much sense for Mr. Hesychios to be complaining about how insulting it is if a Catholic says that the Orthodox Mysteries are illicit according to the rules and regulations in effect in the Catholic Church. What he is talking about seems to be so minor as compared to what some of the Orthodox are saying about Catholics.

 

[Cavaradossi]

That is why I don;t think it makes too much sense for Mr. Hesychios to be complaining about how insulting it is if a Catholic says that the Orthodox Mysteries are illicit according to the rules and regulations in effect in the Catholic Church. What he is talking about seems to be so minor as compared to what some of the Orthodox are saying about Catholics.

You are getting worked up over a whole lot of nothing. I have never once heard anybody in my parish say anything along the lines of “Roman Catholics are not Christians and cannot be saved” (there are plenty of fringe Catholics who hold that same exact opinion of the Orthodox, by the way). In fact, we don’t typically say much about Roman Catholicism, as it is not really relevant to our faith. Perhaps you would like to believe that the Orthodox get together to profane the name of your Church every Sunday, but I assure you that the Eastern Orthodox Church is actually a community (believing itself to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church) which worships the Triune God through the mystery of the Eucharist, not an anti-Catholic social club.

What most Orthodox laypeople seem to believe, especially here in the United States where they are exposed to other Christian groups, is that the Holy Spirit seems to be alive within the Catholic Church as well. Honestly, I don’t see what all of the fuss is about.

 

[1inICXC]

That is why I don;t think it makes too much sense for Mr. Hesychios to be complaining about how insulting it is if a Catholic says that the Orthodox Mysteries are illicit according to the rules and regulations in effect in the Catholic Church. What he is talking about seems to be so minor as compared to what some of the Orthodox are saying about Catholics.

Here is one thing you have to understand, anx it’s something i have come to understand after years in the Orthodox church. A big bulk of being Orthodox = being anti-Catholic. They cannot teach their faith without anti-Catholic indoctrination.
It reminds me of the poor Russians who thought that Stalin was a great man who would save them from their hardship if he only knew about it. That’s how powerful and persuasive propaganda and indoctrination is.

That’s how I learned to not hold it against them, though, admittedly, it can be very hard as their accusations can be extremely malicious. And it’s also hard to accept these things from so called “saints”. But don’t forget,mthey do not have a process of canonization like we do. Some of their saints are considered so because of their extreme asceticism or because they were rulers who built monasteries. Plus, there saints who are only recognized as such in their own country.

At all times we should do what Jesus asked us: love our neighbour AND our enemy and we have to decide toalways work more towards unity than division

 

[Cavaradossi]

Here is one thing you have to understand, anx it’s something i have come to understand after years in the Orthodox church. A big bulk of being Orthodox = being anti-Catholic. They cannot teach their faith without anti-Catholic indoctrination.
It reminds me of the poor Russians who thought that Stalin was a great man who would save them from their hardship if he only knew about it. That’s how powerful and persuasive propaganda and indoctrination is.

That’s how I learned to not hold it against them, though, admittedly, it can be very hard as their accusations can be extremely malicious. And it’s also hard to accept these things from so called “saints”. But don’t forget,mthey do not have a process of canonization like we do. Some of their saints are considered so because of their extreme asceticism or because they were rulers who built monasteries. Plus, there saints who are only recognized as such in their own country.

At all times we should do what Jesus asked us: love our neighbour AND our enemy and we have to decide toalways work more towards unity than division

Catholic saints have also written polemical tracts against the Orthodox. What is the difference, and does that somehow make them less holy? The Catholic Church has only had this new, ecumenism-friendly face since the 20th century. You seem to know very little about Orthodoxy (what you wrote about the canonization of saints is a lie at worst and a misguided half-truth at best, not to mention the atrocious falsehood you have written in claiming that our faith is based on propaganda and indoctrination), and yet you speak as if you are somehow authoritative on the subject.

For the most part, your post is filled with disparaging (and untrue) allegations against the Orthodox, especially the parts where you question the validity of our “so called saints,” as if you are somehow qualified to judge the sanctity of a man, and where you say that our faith is based on propaganda and anti-Catholicism (which is pure nonsense, as our faith is based on the incarnation, life, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ), and then to top it all off, you have the gall to turn around and preach about how we should love our “enemies” (as if fellow Christians are somehow your enemies), while doing just the opposite yourself. It’s quite offensive, to say the least.