Do Catholics believe in Freedom of Religion?

[GregoryPalamas]

What you describe is forbidden in Islam. Force (even jihad) is NEVER allowed to be used to establish Islam as the only religion.

It is ONLY allowed to establish FREEDOM of religion, and the CHOICE for people to choose their own religion.

In a Muslim country, other religions are supposed to be protected. In fact, some very beautiful churches were built under the reign of the Muslims. How could this be if Islam destroyed other religions? Clearly you’re speaking nonsense.

Ask the people in Iraq who’s churches have been destroyed by the lovers of religious freedom who are Muslim. Get your house in order before you claim to believe in religious freedom.

I suspect what you really are teaching is that since Islam is the only true religion and since Allah has given you the entire world as your own Ummah then it is religious freedom and patriotism to follow Islam. To not follow Islam anywhere in the world is to be enslaved to religious falsehood and unpatriotic to Islam.

In one sense we agree. Change Islam to Catholic and you are correct. In all other senses we disagree. We are not interested in going around killing people simply because they won’t submit.

CDL

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I’ve noticed an interesting thing: of all the religions in the world, there are only two who historically have used violence to make others join their faith: Islam and Christianity (though I know Christianity no longer does this.)

And those are also the only two religions that believe their way is the only right way.

I wonder, is there a connection?

All religions believe that their way is the right way, as do Atheists. Why else would one hold to a position?

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Judging all Muslims by what the minority extremist fundamentalist ones do, is like judging all Catholics by the minority sedevacantists like Mel Gibson, who get drunk and spout off about Jews.

I give you permission to get drunk and spout off about me. At least I will be alive to live another day and so will you.

CDL

 

[HashemEchad]

All religions believe that their way is the right way, as do Atheists. Why else would one hold to a position?

CDL

Buddhism does not try to convert people to their faith, thinking it is necessary for salvation.

Judaism also does not seek converts (though we do welcome them if people seek US out)…we also do not believe our way must be followed by everyone in order to achieve salvation.

Islam and Christianity are the only two religions that teach that ALL people MUST join their faith to achieve salvation.

 

[tmango]

HaschemEschad, be careful of what you ask for, because you may get exactly what you desire and then find out that you were so very wrong.

What friend does Israel have in the Middle East? Israel is surrounded by its enemies, and if Israel was to be attacked today, what Islamic nation would come to their aid so you could practice your faith in freedom?

I am a catholic, and I believe that the jewish people are and always will be God’s chosen people. That will never change. I have the deepest respect for the jewish faith, afterall, my Lord was a jewish carpenter. His Mother was jewish. All of our apostles were jewish. Any catholic with that understanding should not have any feelings, other than respect and a sense of brotherhood, with the jewish faith. I will concede that many catholics and christians of other denominations do hold bad feelings against the jewish people, but there are many, like myself that do not and will fight at your side to defend your country and your right to exist.

I do not here any muslim nation standing up for Israel. I do not here any muslim nation speaking out against the murder of caldean christians in Iraq or the islamic faith speaking out against the murder of a caldean bishop in Iraq. Where is the outrage for this “so called” religious freedom that Sister Amy speaks of?

And Sister, please do not try to put a spin on what I have said as my being hateful towards Islam, because I am not. Do not try to turn truth into lies and lies into truth. The truth can stand on its own merits.

 

[HashemEchad]

HaschemEschad, be careful of what you ask for, because you may get exactly what you desire and then find out that you were so very wrong.

What friend does Israel have in the Middle East? Israel is surrounded by its enemies, and if Israel was to be attacked today, what Islamic nation would come to their aid so you could practice your faith in freedom?

I am a catholic, and I believe that the jewish people are and always will be God’s chosen people. That will never change. I have the deepest respect for the jewish faith, afterall, my Lord was a jewish carpenter. His Mother was jewish. All of our apostles were jewish. Any catholic with that understanding should not have any feelings, other than respect and a sense of brotherhood, with the jewish faith. I will concede that many catholics and christians of other denominations do hold bad feelings against the jewish people, but there are many, like myself that do not and will fight at your side to defend your country and your right to exist.

I do not here any muslim nation standing up for Israel. I do not here any muslim nation speaking out against the murder of caldean christians in Iraq or the islamic faith speaking out against the murder of a caldean bishop in Iraq. Where is the outrage for this “so called” religious freedom that Sister Amy speaks of?

And Sister, please do not try to put a spin on what I have said as my being hateful towards Islam, because I am not. Do not try to turn truth into lies and lies into truth. The truth can stand on its own merits.

I don’t think you read my post. I’m NOT a zionist, in fact I am anti-zionist, for Jewish theological reasons.

For more info on the Orthodox point of view on zionism and the forcible establishment of a “Jewish” state before the Messiah comes, see: jewsnotzionists.org/differencejudzion.html

Please do not assume that Jews/Judaism and zionism are synonymous. The only Jews who are zionists, usually, are the secular and nonreligious ones.

Muslims did not hate Jews until AFTER zionism reared its head in the Middle East. The Jews who lived in the Holy Land PRIOR to the coming of the secularized zionists got along very well with the native Muslim Arabs who were there. This is not widely known.

zionism has been one of the biggest causes of antisemitism in the modern world, because too many people wrongly associate the excesses of zionism with the Jewish religion!

 

[AgnosTheist]

What a joke! This is pure takkiya!

I call i “pure stupidity”.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Buddhism does not try to convert people to their faith, thinking it is necessary for salvation.

Judaism also does not seek converts (though we do welcome them if people seek US out)…we also do not believe our way must be followed by everyone in order to achieve salvation.

Islam and Christianity are the only two religions that teach that ALL people MUST join their faith to achieve salvation.

Buddhism is the second oldest missionary religion in the world second only to Judaism. I’m afraid that you have been misled. BTW Hinduism has one branch that does “evangelize” but by and large does not seek conversions.

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I don’t think you read my post. I’m NOT a zionist, in fact I am anti-zionist, for Jewish theological reasons.

For more info on the Orthodox point of view on zionism and the forcible establishment of a “Jewish” state before the Messiah comes, see: jewsnotzionists.org/differencejudzion.html

Please do not assume that Jews/Judaism and zionism are synonymous. The only Jews who are zionists, usually, are the secular and nonreligious ones.

Muslims did not hate Jews until AFTER zionism reared its head in the Middle East. The Jews who lived in the Holy Land PRIOR to the coming of the secularized zionists got along very well with the native Muslim Arabs who were there. This is not widely known.

zionism has been one of the biggest causes of antisemitism in the modern world, because too many people wrongly associate the excesses of zionism with the Jewish religion!

I respect your view on zionism. However, to claim that Muslims never hated Jews until Zionism is completely wrong.

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I don’t think you read my post. I’m NOT a zionist, in fact I am anti-zionist, for Jewish theological reasons.

For more info on the Orthodox point of view on zionism and the forcible establishment of a “Jewish” state before the Messiah comes, see: jewsnotzionists.org/differencejudzion.html

Please do not assume that Jews/Judaism and zionism are synonymous. The only Jews who are zionists, usually, are the secular and nonreligious ones.

Muslims did not hate Jews until AFTER zionism reared its head in the Middle East. The Jews who lived in the Holy Land PRIOR to the coming of the secularized zionists got along very well with the native Muslim Arabs who were there. This is not widely known.

zionism has been one of the biggest causes of antisemitism in the modern world, because too many people wrongly associate the excesses of zionism with the Jewish religion!

I respect your view on zionism. However, to claim that Muslims never hated Jews until Zionism is completely wrong.

CDL

 

[AgnosTheist]

So then it is not treason for a Muslim to become a Catholic or a Mormon or an atheist?

Let me rephrase your question for Sister Amy

Sister Amy

If a muslim in an Islamic Calphate State peacefully converts to Hinduism, is that treason?

If he begins to convert other muslims by persuading them that Islam is a false religion, is that treason?

 

[Reuben_J]

What you describe is forbidden in Islam. Force (even jihad) is NEVER allowed to be used to establish Islam as the only religion.

It is ONLY allowed to establish FREEDOM of religion, and the CHOICE for people to choose their own religion.

In a Muslim country, other religions are supposed to be protected. In fact, some very beautiful churches were built under the reign of the Muslims. How could this be if Islam destroyed other religions? Clearly you’re speaking nonsense.

Haga Sophia is once a beautiful Christian church … Hey, somebody is sufferring from chronic memory lapsed

 

[ralphinal]

In fairness to all, we should say that in modern times, what do Catholics think of freedom of religion. Likewise, in modern times, what do Muslims think of freedom of religion. When was the last time a Christian church was built in a Muslim state with no problems? Will a Muslim who leaves his faith be put to death?

Now, Sister Amy asked about why so many posters on here seem so against other faiths. This is a valid question. There are as many answers as there are posters that feel this way. The vast majority seem anti-non-Catholic because they are convicted that the Catholic Church is the True Church of God and that they are called to spread the truth to others. Many also seem this way because they have been subject to anti-Catholic attacks by some groups and have lashed out against them. Now, specific to Islam, there are some on this board who have lost loved ones to terrorist attacks. It is hard for them to see that Islam did not breed the terrorist mentality when the terrorists seem so adept at “being Muslims.”

 

[Booklover]

In fairness to all, we should say that in modern times, what do Catholics think of freedom of religion. Likewise, in modern times, what do Muslims think of freedom of religion. When was the last time a Christian church was built in a Muslim state with no problems? Will a Muslim who leaves his faith be put to death?

Now, Sister Amy asked about why so many posters on here seem so against other faiths. This is a valid question. There are as many answers as there are posters that feel this way. The vast majority seem anti-non-Catholic because they are convicted that the Catholic Church is the True Church of God and that they are called to spread the truth to others. Many also seem this way because they have been subject to anti-Catholic attacks by some groups and have lashed out against them. Now, specific to Islam, there are some on this board who have lost loved ones to terrorist attacks. It is hard for them to see that Islam did not breed the terrorist mentality when the terrorists seem so adept at “being Muslims.”

How can Islam not breed the terrorist mentality, when they use verses from the Quran to justify their acts of violence??

See .

Vickie

 

[Lapell]

Islam and Christianity are the only two religions that teach that ALL people MUST join their faith to achieve salvation.

HashemEchad, you must have got that from the phrase “Hors de l’Église point de salut” (“outside the Church, no salvation”), but maybe you haven’t read the passage from the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says what it actually means. It doesn’t actually excludes every non-Christian or non-Catholic, contrary to what it may seem. In your case, you don’t believe in your heart that the Catholic Church is the one religion God wanted to establish on earth (and did establish through Jesus called the Christ), so you’re actually not left out of our picture even though you remain Jewish… I don’t remember the number of the paragraph (my Catechism is at home), but I’m quite sure it’s in the part after the Creed, under “I believe in one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”… If you have it, by any means, read it! It’s one misconception about our Church that’s very common.

 

[HashemEchad]

HashemEchad, you must have got that from the phrase “Hors de l’Église point de salut” (“outside the Church, no salvation”), but maybe you haven’t read the passage from the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says what it actually means. It doesn’t actually excludes every non-Christian or non-Catholic, contrary to what it may seem. In your case, you don’t believe in your heart that the Catholic Church is the one religion God wanted to establish on earth (and did establish through Jesus called the Christ), so you’re actually not left out of our picture even though you remain Jewish… I don’t remember the number of the paragraph (my Catechism is at home), but I’m quite sure it’s in the part after the Creed, under “I believe in one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”… If you have it, by any means, read it! It’s one misconception about our Church that’s very common.

I don’t understand how a Catholic can believe that a Jew can still be “saved” if they do not believe the RCC is the true religion. Is that along the lines of what you call invincible ignorance?

I’m familiar with the “extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” argument, and also the theologies of the baptisms of desire and blood. I have to admit, the form of RCism I’m most familiar with, and have studied most, is the pre-Vatican II Catholicism. I have skimmed through the CCC but have not read it in depth.

I’m curious what the new church theology says about a person who was raised as a Muslim, yet who was baptized as a baby by Catholic family members. (I’m asking because I know someone in that situation, who was raised Muslim by parents who had converted from Catholicism to Islam, but was secretly baptized by very religious members of the father’s family.)

Do you guys regard such a person as Catholic, or no?

 

[Lapell]

HaschemEschad, be careful of what you ask for, because you may get exactly what you desire and then find out that you were so very wrong.(…)
And Sister, please do not try to put a spin on what I have said as my being hateful towards Islam, because I am not. Do not try to turn truth into lies and lies into truth. The truth can stand on its own merits.

tmango, even though HashemEchad does know “a thing or two” (which usually means usually much more than that!) about the Catholic Church, I don’t believe she is forging something for a play on words here! Many people genuinely stumble on expressions such as the one “Outside the Church, no salvation”. They would take it litterally. But HashemEchad has studied the Catholic faith before, so I think she’d be interested in what the teaching about this actually is…

 

[ralphinal]

How can Islam not breed the terrorist mentality, when they use verses from the Quran to justify their acts of violence??

See .

Vickie

Well, not to side against a good Catholic on this one, but the KKK defends their **** with Bible verses. Any person can pick and choose verses out of context to prove almost anything.

 

[Booklover]

What you describe is forbidden in Islam. Force (even jihad) is NEVER allowed to be used to establish Islam as the only religion.

It is ONLY allowed to establish FREEDOM of religion, and the CHOICE for people to choose their own religion.

In a Muslim country, other religions are supposed to be protected. In fact, some very beautiful churches were built under the reign of the Muslims. How could this be if Islam destroyed other religions? Clearly you’re speaking nonsense.

And the deception continues! Why are there no other religions allowed in Saudi Arabia for instance?


Here’s just one example:

Quran 47:4

“So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Stop trying to deceive us!

Vickie

 

[Lapell]

I don’t understand how a Catholic can believe that a Jew can still be “saved” if they do not believe the RCC is the true religion. Is that along the lines of what you call invincible ignorance?

I’m familiar with the “extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” argument, and also the theologies of the baptisms of desire and blood. I have to admit, the form of RCism I’m most familiar with, and have studied most, is the pre-Vatican II Catholicism. I have skimmed through the CCC but have not read it in depth.

I’m curious what the new church theology says about a person who was raised as a Muslim, yet who was baptized as a baby by Catholic family members. (I’m asking because I know someone in that situation, who was raised Muslim by parents who had converted from Catholicism to Islam, but was secretly baptized by very religious members of the father’s family.)

Do you guys regard such a person as Catholic, or no?

I thought your argument was about who is “SAVED” according to Christians, and Catholics ARE Christians… I do think it IS in the lines of “invincible ignorance”, yes.
About the question about the baptized person raised as a Muslim… A priest would answer you better than I would, but if he or she was baptized by Catholics, I would tend to believe this person is a Catholic. Once baptized a Catholic, always a Catholic, although he or she may not know it and not know the Catholic faith…