Do Catholics believe in Freedom of Religion?

[Lapell]

Why do you keep saying this? I have explained this to you so many times! Treason is a crime.

All the same, the reason I repeat what I have said, that Islam commands freedom of religion, is because the Qur’an says explicitly laa ikraha fee deen!

The case of treason here, does it involve somebody having decided to convert to another faith which he (she) happens to have found to be the one for him (her)? Or, is it about something else completely?

 

[Lapell]

I could understand if it meant that one from our army decides to work with the enemy’s army against us, but that would indeed be something else, wouldn’t it?

 

[Lapell]

So if the Catholic Church teaches that people are entitled to freedom in religion…

why are people here so angry and violent towards non-Catholics?

Well, sister, maybe this should have been said even if you thought this! This sounds like generalizing.

 

[ralphinal]

I could understand if it meant that one from our army decides to work with the enemy’s army against us, but that would indeed be something else, wouldn’t it?

Lapell,

I may be wrong, but I think that the nature of the treason is that it seems like there is an assumption in the Koran that Islam is both the personal religion AND the form of Government. Therefore, anyone who leaves Islam is saying that they are also anti-law of the land. IN other words, no differentiation is made between those who practice other faiths and those who want to topple the government.

 

[Lapell]

I meant “should NOT have been said”, not “should have”!

 

[AgnosTheist]

Freedom of Religion is when you allow somebody to fully practice their religion even though you hate that religion.

 

[Booklover]

I could understand if it meant that one from our army decides to work with the enemy’s army against us, but that would indeed be something else, wouldn’t it?

Accusing them of treason is the proof they need for executing them for apostasy!

Vickie

 

[Lapell]

Lapell,

I may be wrong, but I think that the nature of the treason is that it seems like there is an assumption in the Koran that Islam is both the personal religion AND the form of Government. Therefore, anyone who leaves Islam is saying that they are also anti-law of the land. IN other words, no differentiation is made between those who practice other faiths and those who want to topple the government.

Strange way to apply “freedom” of religion… Sounds like a wife who according to her husband is free to leave him ( but if she does so the husband will kill her, he warns.)

 

[Lapell]

Freedom of Religion is when you allow somebody to fully practice their religion even though you hate that religion.

And if someone from his convictions decide to convert to another religion?

 

[AgnosTheist]

And if someone from his convictions decide to convert to another religion?

same thing.

my post was intended for amy. she couldnt reconcile the idea of freedom of religion with catholic anger at other religions.

and i suspect that she is yet to reconcile freedom of religion with the idea of practicing it fully (which includes missionary work)

 

[Lapell]

I brought up freedom of religion in Catholicism, and when challenged explained that Islam teaches freedom of religion. In fact, the purpose of “jihad” is to establish freedom of religion.

It’s not a crime to practice religious freedom, or to change one’s beliefs. If it were, then nobody would be allowed to become a Muslim!.

But what if some Muslim converts to… Catholicism, for instance? And just that! Would he be considered a traitor? You may ask your sheikh to check this out…

 

[Lapell]

same thing.

my post was intended for amy. she couldnt reconcile the idea of freedom of religion with catholic anger at other religions.

and i suspect that she is yet to reconcile freedom of religion with the idea of practicing it fully (which includes missionary work)

My post was also intended for sister Amy, AgnosTheist. I should have put her name in my question!!!

 

[Verisimilitude]

Would Catholics fight to defend someone else’s right to not be a Catholic?

As a Catholic and a veteran I can say, yes.

Does the Catholic Church teach or promote freedom of religion?

No. The Church commands us to love our neighbor without reservation and invite them to truth with knowledge of Christ. If the offer is refused then we leave them unmolested and move on. It is not always easy to put in practice as you might guess but the command is clear and true.

You bring up an important point though. What caused the idea of ‘freedom of religion’ and ‘separation of curch and state’ that makes most westerners regardless of faith think such an ideology is a worthwhile that the use force in some cases is acceptable to promote? Were the ancient Greeks or Romans more tolerant because of their polytheism than any of the monotheistic faiths? Did America revive such a concept or is it part of our human nature? I suspect the latter.

Governments not under the direct mandate of a particlar religion are more likely to promote such freedoms resticted only by the physical interference of one religion upon another. Those governments that mandate a particular faith or none at all are more likely to be less tolerant and less likely to come to the aid of others in defence of their religious freedoms.

 

[ralphinal]

As a Catholic and a veteran I can say, yes.

No. The Church commands us to love our neighbor without reservation and invite them to truth with knowledge of Christ. If the offer is refused then we leave them unmolested and move on. It is not always easy to put in practice as you might guess but the command is clear and true.

You bring up an important point though. What caused the idea of ‘freedom of religion’ and ‘separation of curch and state’ that makes most westerners regardless of faith think such an ideology is a worthwhile that the use force in some cases is acceptable to promote? Were the ancient Greeks or Romans more tolerant because of their polytheism than any of the monotheistic faiths? Did America revive such a concept or is it part of our human nature? I suspect the latter.

Governments not under the direct mandate of a particlar religion are more likely to promote such freedoms resticted only by the physical interference of one religion upon another. Those governments that mandate a particular faith or none at all are more likely to be less tolerant and less likely to come to the aid of others in defence of their religious freedoms.

Excellent post:thumbsup:

 

[ralphinal]

Strange way to apply “freedom” of religion… Sounds like a wife who according to her husband is free to leave him ( but if she does so the husband will kill her, he warns.)

True, but that is how it seems from here.

Personally, I am confused.

The Koran states that there is no compulsion in religion, but then the Shaira laws say execute any male apostates. There are verses that do state not to befriend those who are not Muslim. It seems that the writtings seem to say everything. No compulsion, death to those who leave. Free to be Christian or Jew, then you must pay a tax but you are protected (isn’t that something that the mafia does? A protection scam?). Then you must convert to Islam or die. I do not know what the truth is.

I have no choice but to judge actions. I hear of Christians (and anamists) being killed in Sudan, Churches destroyed in Indonesia, and non-Muslims not allowed to practice their faith in the Middle East. I know that our Muslim friends on here, including the very kind Sister Amy, tell us that this is not Islam and that there is to be no compulsion. The actions speak louder than the words.

 

[Booklover]

Yes, Islam teaches that non-Muslims are allowed freedom of religion! And more! They are to be treated with kindness and justice!

Is this what you call “kindness” and “justice”??

by Jesse Patrilla of the UAC.

“Our first stop in Alexandria was the Church of St. George, the site of a brutal attack in 2005 where a Muslim in his early 20s entered as a prayer service was finishing. He shouted “Allah akbar” and stabbed a nun in the chest with a knife. Several days after the stabbing, an angry Muslim mob also attacked the church, brandishing sticks and throwing rocks at the Christians. Numerous cars and Christian-owned businesses in the area were torched, and in the end, three people were dead from the violence, all of it being sparked by unsubstantiated reports about a theatrical production that occurred at the church which was rumored to have offended Islam. I attended a prayer service there, and every 15 seconds over loudspeakers aimed at the church from the mosque next door, the Muslims were yelling at the Christians. “Allah akbar! Allah akbar!” they would yell among other things in an attempt to disrupt the prayer. This was entirely outside of the five daily calls to prayer which come over the same loudspeaker. It was intimidation designed entirely to disrupt Christian prayer, and stopped as soon as everyone left after the service was over. I took a short video of the incident, and posted it on YouTube.”

Vickie
_

 

[Sister_Amy]

Lapell,

I may be wrong, but I think that the nature of the treason is that it seems like there is an assumption in the Koran that Islam is both the personal religion AND the form of Government. Therefore, anyone who leaves Islam is saying that they are also anti-law of the land. IN other words, no differentiation is made between those who practice other faiths and those who want to topple the government.

This is pretty close.

However, other religious groups are allowed to implement their own laws, instead of living under shari’ah.

 

[Sister_Amy]

But what if some Muslim converts to… Catholicism, for instance? And just that! Would he be considered a traitor? You may ask your sheikh to check this out…

I have asked. The answer is that he is not considered a traitor, and nothing is to be done.

 

[Sister_Amy]

True, but that is how it seems from here.

Personally, I am confused.

The Koran states that there is no compulsion in religion, but then the Shaira laws say execute any male apostates. There are verses that do state not to befriend those who are not Muslim.

Actually, there are no verses that say that. They tell the Muslims not to seek non-Muslims as allies against Muslims.

It seems that the writtings seem to say everything. No compulsion, death to those who leave. Free to be Christian or Jew, then you must pay a tax but you are protected (isn’t that something that the mafia does? A protection scam?). Then you must convert to Islam or die. I do not know what the truth is.

“Convert to Islam or die” would be prohibited in Islam. It is a violation of the Qur’an, which you mentioned earlier. Nobody can be faced with this threat, precisely because it is forbidden in Islam… convert or die, that violates a person’s freedom of a religion, it violates the ruling prohibiting compulsion in faith.

I have no choice but to judge actions.

Of course you have a choice. Didn’t Jesus (pbuh) say “Do not judge, or you too will be judged?”

I hear of Christians (and anamists) being killed in Sudan,

I hear of Muslims being killed in Sudan.

Churches destroyed in Indonesia,

I hear of mosques blown up in India.

and non-Muslims not allowed to practice their faith in the Middle East.

The only place I have heard this to be true is KSA. Do you mean anywhere else?

I know that our Muslim friends on here, including the very kind Sister Amy, tell us that this is not Islam and that there is to be no compulsion. The actions speak louder than the words.

Actually, sensational violence speaks louder (through the media) than patient truth. Muslims condemn the violence and terror in the world, at the hands of Muslims, at the hands of Christians, at the hands of Hindus, etc. They do so because they are commanded to do that by Islam.

Cain killed his brother Abel. By your logic, Cain was correct and Abel wrong, because actions speak louder than words.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Is this what you call “kindness” and “justice”??

by Jesse Patrilla of the UAC.

“Our first stop in Alexandria was the Church of St. George, the site of a brutal attack in 2005 where a Muslim in his early 20s entered as a prayer service was finishing. He shouted “Allah akbar” and stabbed a nun in the chest with a knife. Several days after the stabbing, an angry Muslim mob also attacked the church, brandishing sticks and throwing rocks at the Christians. Numerous cars and Christian-owned businesses in the area were torched, and in the end, three people were dead from the violence, all of it being sparked by unsubstantiated reports about a theatrical production that occurred at the church which was rumored to have offended Islam. I attended a prayer service there, and every 15 seconds over loudspeakers aimed at the church from the mosque next door, the Muslims were yelling at the Christians. “Allah akbar! Allah akbar!” they would yell among other things in an attempt to disrupt the prayer. This was entirely outside of the five daily calls to prayer which come over the same loudspeaker. It was intimidation designed entirely to disrupt Christian prayer, and stopped as soon as everyone left after the service was over. I took a short video of the incident, and posted it on YouTube.”

Vickie
_

The Muslims at my university had gathered to pray a silent prayer on a grassy area near a courtyard of sorts between several key buildings. Being on the grass they were out of the way of traffic. Regardless, a number of Christians decided to play their music right in front of the group (they had to move over there in order to do so) and others to parade in front of the group while shouting insults. Specifically to disrupt the prayer.