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EphelDuath
Guest
I just explained to you, two posts ago, why this is not the case.
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BereanRuss
Guest
Then why would Jesus bother saying, “…unless you eat the flesh…” if He did not mean it?
If there is one thing that we cannot do it is to change the word of the Lord.
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BereanRuss
Guest
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BereanRuss
Guest
ED,
I was welcoming a new blogger and bringing them up to speed on the discussion. Please pay attention to whom I am responding to.
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bullfrog654
Guest
if rightiousness is something to admire one might ask is it right to keep the gate open or closed might one nat tell our lord our understanding of such things.
if your suggesting this is a GATEKEEPER then i suppose yes im a gate keeper however the theif in the night holds the keys to the obysee
one is allowed to voice there understandings of right and wrong to god and ask for guidence from the trinity i typed wrong
if your suggesting this is a GATEKEEPER then i suppose yes im a gate keeper however the theif in the night holds the keys to the obysee
one is allowed to voice there understandings of right and wrong to god and ask for guidence from the trinity i typed wrong
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BereanRuss
Guest
This is exactly why Jesus must be speaking figuratively in John 6:53 because if He is not, He is contradicting Himself on many levels (He who believes in Me out of his heart will flow rivers of living water…) and many more places.
Though physical strength comes through the stomach, faith does not come through the stomach. Faith comes by hearing, not by eating.
If your faith was not birthed by eating something, what makes you think that your faith can be strengthened be eating something? That is why Peter said, “…as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby…” We are not birthed spiritually by anything we eat and we are not nourished spiritually by anything we eat. We are both birthed and nourished by the word of God, "that we may grow thereby”.
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BereanRuss
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mikijam
Guest
BereanRuss, I’ve been lurking this thread for a while, and find it quite interesting. There are much better apologists here than I, but something has occurred to me that I haven’t seen yet. You seem to be interpreting “you do not have life within you” to mean “you are condemned to eternal damnation.”
Is that what you think it means? Because that seems to be a logical fallacy. Certainly to eat His flesh and Drink his blood brings you to everlasting life, as the Church teaches (and as is confirmed in John 6:58). But doesn’t necessarily mean to NOT eat it GUARANTEES damnation, does it?
Truly, those who don’t have the Eucharist do not have Life within them. You might say they are dead, but since when did death ever stop our Lord Jesus Christ?
Many posts have pointed out that the mercy and Grace of God can do whatever He wills. Perhaps it is His will to extend his Grace (through the Church He founded) to those who are invincibly ignorant of the fact that they do not have Life within them through the Eucharist.Just a thought. Perhaps those more versed in Scripture than I could pick up this thought. I’m just a Joe Catholic who likes to watch the fireworks.
Carry on. I’ll be following along.
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bullfrog654
Guest
so tell us … why then DOES Jesus tell us that if we do not eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no life in us.
Surely you do not suggest there is a contradiction in the bible.
This is exactly why Jesus must be speaking figuratively in John 6:53 because if He is not, He is contradicting Himself on many levels (He who believes in Me out of his heart will flow rivers of living water…) and many more places.
this i believe is a form of balance of sin very dark deals have been made here. i always here outside my heart (purified) how much do you care for computers. id suspect the idea of the reserection of jesus senario. so i copied the statement.
i recall a brilliant wise saying since i cant read up this scripture at the moment.
a women was attending a garden getting rid of the bugs and it was said at times one concentrates so much on the garden they forget of the big storm on its way that could wipe out the garden.
it sais alot in life. i dont believe we should consantrate say on scriputure but as i believe prepare with its words of wisdom for our storms in the future it guides us through scripture and shows us how to prepare and be wise in our decissions in these pressures of life. is it a better life i realize this i need material things especially my karma stuff and entertainment in my life. usually i dont ask for much a coffee and a cigarette and ill be happy. is it important to prepare as cc advises in my opinion yes the same way as being responsible is important
Surely you do not suggest there is a contradiction in the bible.
This is exactly why Jesus must be speaking figuratively in John 6:53 because if He is not, He is contradicting Himself on many levels (He who believes in Me out of his heart will flow rivers of living water…) and many more places.
this i believe is a form of balance of sin very dark deals have been made here. i always here outside my heart (purified) how much do you care for computers. id suspect the idea of the reserection of jesus senario. so i copied the statement.
i recall a brilliant wise saying since i cant read up this scripture at the moment.
a women was attending a garden getting rid of the bugs and it was said at times one concentrates so much on the garden they forget of the big storm on its way that could wipe out the garden.
it sais alot in life. i dont believe we should consantrate say on scriputure but as i believe prepare with its words of wisdom for our storms in the future it guides us through scripture and shows us how to prepare and be wise in our decissions in these pressures of life. is it a better life i realize this i need material things especially my karma stuff and entertainment in my life. usually i dont ask for much a coffee and a cigarette and ill be happy. is it important to prepare as cc advises in my opinion yes the same way as being responsible is important
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BereanRuss
Guest
Great to have you reading along and thanks for taking the time to comment. You are correct. I believe that Jesus is making a clean distinction between those who have eternal life and those who do not. He clearly says, “…UNLESS you eat…” He makes a clear distinction.
You bring up an excellent question. What do you think? Or, better yet, what does the Bible teach on this? Is all of mankind lost and condemned until they confess Jesus with their mouths or can people be saved without professing Jesus as their Savior?
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. – The Apostle Paul
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bullfrog654
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the original deal was to supply the water flowing through the heart by the devil. in ancient time 2/3 of the planet was in water. and two thirds of angels were cast to hell. so as to suggest that of which allready was a confermed deal before the days of dawn. it was to be aranged the devil was to forgive reality water. it might relate to reveations
it is the devils job to make sure water doesnt flow so as 1 billion religious people can live in harmony with even a satanists as neighbours as themselves
it is the devils job to make sure water doesnt flow so as 1 billion religious people can live in harmony with even a satanists as neighbours as themselves
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Through_Him
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Actually we are the adopted and Israel is the first born, and why would they have to sever the the history. ???
Hi CM
and I notice BR did not respond to you.I will try to get all the references for the CCC for a response BR , I am so busy but this is a good question. You truly are trying
I wish I could continue on this thread but will have to pick it up later, Happy Easter to All.
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bradwill911
Guest
This question has been answered in this very thread. This is what the Church teaches (copied and pasted from one of my earlier posts in this thread):
Berean,
I see you feel it is necessary to ask this question again and again. YES, Catholics believe John 6:53. Your point, if I understand it correctly, is that we must not believe it because you say that the Church teaches that Muslims can be saved through Muhammad and Jews can be saved through Moses. Let me put this in all caps so it is not misunderstood: THAT IS NOT WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES! You said the Catechism was clear on this point, but you are now not only misinterpreting Scripture, but misunderstanding the teaching of the Church.
The Church teaches that salvation is available to mankind, Christ died for all of us.
The Church has ALWAYS taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.
The Church is the body of Christ.
Therefore, there is no salvation outside of the body of Christ.
Non-Catholics are imperfectly a part of the Church. You do not need to be a Catholic in practice to be a catholic in person. The part of the CCC that you claim is saying that we believe that Muslims will be saved through Muhammad and Jews through Moses is describing the Church’s relationship with mankind.
CCC 836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God…And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ (you), and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.
The CCC goes on to describe the Church’s relationship with non-Catholic Christians (see 838). It then describes our relationship with non-Christians: Jews 839, 840; Muslims 841; others 842-844. Finally, in 845, the Church states:
"To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world. According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.
“Outside the Church there is no salvation.”
To understand para 841, which you have referenced, you must have a least a vague understanding of Lumen Gentium which states, “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)”
This footnote (19) states, “no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.”
It goes on, “Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.”
And, “when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.”
To sum it up, this letter states, “…those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition “in which they cannot be sure of their salvation” since “they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church” (AAS, 1. c., p. 243). With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion.”
Bottom line, there is no salvation outside the Church. To answer your hypothetical question that you just posted, I believe that the Church’s teaching is that no, this person would not be saved. This person has rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Church. This would not be case of invincible ignorance of the Gospel. Does that answer your question?
Peace.
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byzgirl
Guest
If you’re really as interested, in proving the Catholic Church as ‘in error’, then perhaps you should get a copy of our Catholic Catechism (available at most christian bookstores) for yourself --to keep for reference. Actually, it’s very easy to find it online (as I did).
“Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.”
"The Fathers affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.
However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."
“I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]” (ibid., 4:21[28]).
“The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics” (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).
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byzgirl
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**Who belongs to the Catholic Church? **
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
**The Church and non-Christians **
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
**The Church and non-Christians **
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
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byzgirl
Guest
“Confession is the beginning of glory, not the full desert of the crown; nor does it perfect our praise, but it initiates our dignity; and since it is written, ‘He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved,’ whatever has been before the end is a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation, not a terminus wherein the full result of the ascent is already gained.” Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 21 (A.D. 251).
“It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also.” Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 18 (A.D. 427).
“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” Didache, 16 (A.D. 90).
Salvation: Past, Present, and Future
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PASTPRES.HTM
“It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also.” Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 18 (A.D. 427).
“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” Didache, 16 (A.D. 90).
Salvation: Past, Present, and Future
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PASTPRES.HTM
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BereanRuss
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No, I am sorry, it does not answer my question. My question is:
How can a Muslim or a Jew or any other person be saved apart from receiving communion in the CC in light of Jesus’ words, “Amen, amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh…”?
I understand the concept of the “baptism of desire” and honestly that is not what I am asking. I am asking about those who have heard the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of the CC but who choose to remain Muslim (or whatever) and live a loving, giving and forgiving life and remain faithful to the teachings of their form of religion but never confess Jesus as Savior and never receive communion in the CC. Can these persons be saved and if they can be saved, how does that not distort and change and contradict the very words of the LORD?
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BereanRuss
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Can you also respond to my question in post # 247?
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bullfrog654
Guest
the image of dark truth is whats used for blessing water but we have to remember satan is the father of all lies and if fed upon by chemical images.
as in ex. though should not put any foreighn substances in your body and as i also satanic neighbours of religious people and so sinful they carve to put foreighn substances in their body such as booze or drugs.
everything in moderation.
also dont eat hoven animals such as rabbit.
but if it wasnt enough for the devil to not beable to handle blessing the water of rivers in the heart he know has to bless with dark truth the waters of the earth. prefered repetition if you ask me.
i realize athiests ignorance is blessed by god as i read in scripture, but i believe moderately, he only allows some mistakes to seperate the sheep from the cattle as jesus or theif in the night will do.
as in ex. though should not put any foreighn substances in your body and as i also satanic neighbours of religious people and so sinful they carve to put foreighn substances in their body such as booze or drugs.
everything in moderation.
also dont eat hoven animals such as rabbit.
but if it wasnt enough for the devil to not beable to handle blessing the water of rivers in the heart he know has to bless with dark truth the waters of the earth. prefered repetition if you ask me.
i realize athiests ignorance is blessed by god as i read in scripture, but i believe moderately, he only allows some mistakes to seperate the sheep from the cattle as jesus or theif in the night will do.
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bradwill911
Guest
Did you bother reading the entire post? Your response here indicates that you did not. Go back and reread. The Church does NOT teach that those who have heard the teachings of Christ and choose to remain in their faiths will be saved. Please take the time to actually read the post rather than argue with what you believe the rest of the post says.
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