Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

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So, is it safe to say that they believed he was speaking literally? Why not correct them? Fr Vincent Serpa, an apologist here provides this direction for interpreting Jn 6:53:

Jesus was under attack for suggesting that people could eat His flesh and drink His blood. Jews were forbidden from drinking any kind of blood and so they strongly objected…
If you truly believe this to be the case, that outside of regularly taking communion in the CC a person does not have life, why then does the CC refer to protestants as “separated brethren”? Why not preach that protestants do not have life just as Jesus said?

You cannot have it both ways. Either Jesus is speaking absolutely, “Amen, amen” or He is not.

If He is speaking literally, how do you reconcile the following:

Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. [John 6:53]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned… [John 3:16…]

If God promises eternal life to those who believe in Him, why would He later exclude some who believe in Him because they do not take communion in the CC? How can Jesus contridict Himself? Is He a liar?
 
NotWorthy,

You can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say if you try hard enough but the fact remains that there is no office of priest in the NT in spite of the many places that it SHOULD be listed like:

… God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
"Apostles" are the bishops (overseers) of the Church; they oversee everything pertaining to the Church. They are its rulers. (Hebrews 13:17, Hebrews 13:7) Notice that these apostles were appointed FIRST, by God, in your “list.” They are listed first because they rule over all the members of the Church. The Church is a hierarchy. All bishops are priests but not all priests are bishops. The Greek “elder or presbyter” means “priest” in English.

Philippians 1:1 “1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:”

1 Timothy 3:1-5 “This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);”

Titus 1:7-9 “For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.”

Apostles are bishops; they appointed more bishops as the Church grew. Bishops ordain priests. Bishops ordain deacons.

Jesus authorized the sacerdotal priesthood of His New Covenant Church and appointed its first bishops who were the apostles. Peter authorized the election of another apostle to take the place of Judas Iscariot. This is the first written documentation of Apostolic Succession and it is recorded in Scripture. (Acts 1:15-26)

2 Peter 3:16 “(Paul) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.”

You are one of the “untaught” because you have not been taught by the teachers in authority in Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Jesus only established one Church and He built it upon Peter. Jesus gave Peter alone the “keys of the kingdom of heaven.” If you desire to be in Jesus’ Church, then you need to join the one with “Peter’s” successor at its head! (Matthew 16:18-19)

Pax,
SHW
 
I think I actually answered your original post. I do not believe this person would be saved. He is not invincibly ignorant of Christ and His Church. He is knowingly rejecting Christ. He is doing all the right things, but you can’t earn or work your way into heaven.
Brad,

Great answer. I agree with you that we cannot judge. However, where does the church ever say that the Jew or the Muslim is lost? If the Jew is lost, shouldn’t the church warn them instead of using language that seems to indicate that they are covered by the “sacrifice of the Eucharist”?

When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. [Ez 33:8,9]
 
The Greek “elder or presbyter” means “priest” in English.
The Greek “elder or presbyter” does NOT mean “priest” in English. It means “overseer”

The Greek word for “priest” is “hiereus” and is used throughout the NT but it is never used to refer to anyone in the Church except Jesus Christ.
 
If you truly believe this to be the case, that outside of regularly taking communion in the CC a person does not have life, why then does the CC refer to protestants as “separated brethren”? Why not preach that protestants do not have life just as Jesus said?

First, I didn’t say that “outside of regularly taking communion in the CC a person does not have life.” There is a communion of desire. Take the case of a catechumen. What if the person is in the process of becoming Catholic, believes everything the Church teaches, but dies before being able to receive the Eucharist?

Baptized Christians are all in one way or another part of the Catholic Church or Body of Christ. Some are in an imperfect communion with the Church. I would invite you to read “Unitatus Redintegratio”. I know you don’t read links, so feel free to google it.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned… [John 3:16…]

First, I think we both know that even the demons believe. I don’t have to reconcile Jn 3:16 to 6:53 because I don’t think there is a contradiction. John certainly didn’t say or imply that the belief alone is what saves someone, since aI just stated, even the demons believe. I do agree with you that you can’t have it both ways and I think you need to reconcile Jn 3:16 here. I’m guessing you don’t think Catholics are saved (why else would you spend so much time arguing these points with Catholics), but Catholics believe in Christ. According to your own theology, Catholics are saved. As you asked me, is He a liar?
 
Brad,

Great answer. I agree with you that we cannot judge. However, where does the church ever say that the Jew or the Muslim is lost?

First, to be fair, I haven’t read the entirety of Catholic encyclicals or even the entire Catechism yet. So while the Church, to my knowledge, has not stated, “Jew/Muslim, you are not going to be saved”, it has taught what IS required for salvation and it has always said that there is no salvation outside of the Church.

If the Jew is lost, shouldn’t the church warn them instead of using language that seems to indicate that they are covered by the “sacrifice of the Eucharist”?

I think that the Church has made itself very clear over the centuries, violently so in ancient history. I would also think that Jews and Muslims realize that the Catholic Church believes in the New Testament so that should shed some light on the necessity of Christ. Maybe the Church has focused more on what we have in common than on what separates us, I don’ t know.
 
First, to be fair, I haven’t read the entirety of Catholic encyclicals or even the entire Catechism yet. So while the Church, to my knowledge, has not stated, “Jew/Muslim, you are not going to be saved”, it has taught what IS required for salvation and it has always said that there is no salvation outside of the Church.
Right - this is how it works. There are far too many religions out there, to go to each one and say, “You are not saved. Here is what is wrong with your religion.” Aside from being cumbersome, it would also be a very round-about way of doing evangelism that has far more potential to offend than to save.

Rather, we preach God’s Truth consistently, over and over again, and pray that it will attract all who are seeking the Truth, whatever their current religion may be.
 
**Hey Russ…

You said:

If you can ask seven questions or more in one post then so can I. Please answer all. Absolutely Russ…you can ask me 7 times 70 questions! LOL…This is how we learn from one another!!! 👍 I answered ALL of your questions as best I could; perhaps you could reciprocate?
**
  1. Do yo you believe that the apostles who were sinful, fallible people, were empowered by Jesus to either forgive or remit sins, 2000 years ago?
They were given the authority to preach the Gospel which includes the forgiveness of sins. Listen to Peter, your first Pope:

**Russ, so, they were empowered to forgive sins; is that what you are saying? I agree with you; they were given authority to preach the Gospel !!!
**
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Amen to that brother!!!
  1. Why do you insist that forgiveness is connected to an earthly priesthood when the first Pope taught that it is connected to the message of the Gospel, not to confessing to an earthy priest?
**OK, I’ll bite…Who can do as the Apostles did, when it comes to:

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
**

2) Did Jesus’’ established church circa 33 AD teach erroneously vis-a-vis the literal interpretation as opposed to the symbolical interpretation, of John 6, for the first 300 years of Christianity…for the first 1500 years of Christianity?

FYI I have no idea what you mean when you say, “vis-à-vis”. I do gather from the context that is a derogatory statement.

Vis-a-vis is not derogatory… Did Jesus’’ established church circa 33 AD teach erroneously, regarding the literal interpretation as opposed to the symbolical interpretation, of John 6, for the first 300 years of Christianity…for the first 1500 years of Christianity?

would you please answer this question??? Nobody else will.

  1. Why then don’t you believe Him? Why don’t you preach that unless you receive communion in the CC, you cannot be saved?
**Why don’t I preach what…? Preaching the Good News…? I do; that is my right as a priest, of the royal priesthood! I never said: unless you receive communion in the CC, you cannot be saved. However Jesus said: "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood…and the grumblers walked away because they believed He was speaking in metaphor, or did they leave because they believed He was speaking literally???
**
  1. Why does your theology insist that Jesus contradicts Himself? Is He a liar? One day He says, “Anyone who believes in me…” and the next day he says, “No, I changed my mind, only the Catholic priest can save you…” Why do you believe a theology that insists that Jesus contradicts Himself? Can Jesus lie?
I guess He could lie if He wanted to, for He is God after all; but I doubt He would. LOL…You mean the C.C.‘s theology? Nope!!! Once again you are speaking incongruously; you as a priest, and ministerial priests possess zero power to SAVE anyone, or change the bread into anything, just as the Apostles had ZERO power to perform miracles; this was done via the Holy Spirit, as is the miraculous transformation of the bread and wine into Jesus’ true flesh and blood, believed by Jesus’ church for the first 300 years. When the catholic minister performs his priestly duty, by reenacting the last supper, just as Jesus, as the one and only High Priest did 2000 years ago, at the original last supper, takes the bread, blesses the bread, and gives thanks, and brakes it, and says, take, eat: this Christ’s Body, which is broken for you, just as Jesus requested, the Holy Spirit DOES THE WORK of transubstantiation which is the changing of the entire substance of bread and wine into Christ’s Body and Blood…doing exactly as Jesus commanded when He said: this do in remembrance of me; does your church do this in remembrance of Jesus?

**Are not these words to be repeated; if so, then by whom, if not a presbyter or bishop?
**

**3) Russ, are the 2 churches that can trace their lineage all the way back to the apostolic wrong about the true presence…?

**Regarding the fountain of water springing up into everlasting life:
**

**Russ, did Jesus’ followers walk away when He said this in John 4? Nope!!! Why is that my friend? **
  1. Why doesn’t the CC also provide this “living water” for all of us to drink?
She, as the bride of Christ does, just as she did for the first 1500 years of Christianity, and still does!!!

How is it you know that Jesus is speaking figuratively in this verse but you cannot understand that Jesus is speaking figuratively in John 6:53 even after Jesus says, “the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life.”

**It’s really quite simple; the grumblers did not grumble in John 4; the grumblers did grumble in John 6, and walked away from God, after He said what He said in John 6:53…they murmured and grumbled and walked away for good, directly after Jesus said: “the flesh profits nothing, and Jesus did not stop them. The words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life.” Why did they walk away?
**

**Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.” Why did they not walk away Russ?
**

continued…**
 
  1. How can Jesus promise me figurative “water” that is, “water springing up into eternal life.” But then contradict Himself and say that I must eat a wafer transubstantiated by the priest?
**You, as per the C.C. and the E.O.C. are to eat a wafer transubstantiated by the Holy Spirit; please stop saying that the priest has some sort of magical powers!!! They are not magicians, however I can do a few tricks myself. LOL…

If Jesus as our one and only Priest, performed His Priestly duty when He took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to his disciples, and said, Take eat; this is my body, and took the cup and gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.–And He asked His Apostles to do this in remembrance of Him, are they not acting as Jesus did; is this not a priestly function? It is a re-presentation, not a re-sacrifice; Christ died once and for all, 2000 years ago!!!

When Jesus said: whoever drinks the water that I will give him will never become thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become a well of water for him, springing up to eternal life, I believe He was speaking in metaphor; the church that sprang from Pentecost believed…the grumblers believed…that’s why they did not walk away. Regarding John 6, you believe He is speaking in metaphor, but, the grumblers clearly believed that He was speaking literally, and walked away; the church that sprang from Pentecost believed… while you continue to contend that He was speaking in metaphor, and walk away; do you NOT believe as the grumblers believed?
**
  1. How can I be guaranteed eternal life by drinking this water but then have the eternal life that was guaranteed by Jesus himself be taken away because I failed to get communion from the priest?
**Russ, did the grumblers grumble when Jesus guaranteed life by drinking this water? Did Jesus have to repeat Himself over and over after He said what He said in John 4, as He had to, in John 6?
**

**4) When --Jesus said to them, [in verse 35]— I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst…**Why did the Jews murmur about him [in verse 41]–when he said, I am the bread that came down from heaven…after He clearly said: whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst…???

**You have yet to answer this question, while I have answered all of your questions so far!!!
**
  1. How does a person “eat” this bread? “…whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst”
**Just as they did for the first 300 years of Christianity! Did Jesus’ church teach a heretical doctrine for the first 300 years Russ? Russ, 4 verses later the grumbling Jews murmured again about Him because he said, I am the bread that came down from heaven…whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst…Why is that?

**
Jesus is equating “believing” to “EATING”. He is equating “coming to Me” to “not hungering” and “not thirsting”. He is speaking figuratively, not literally! He is using NATURAL things (bread, hunger, thirst) to teach SPIRITUAL truths! He does it all of the time!

**Why didn’t He just say that? If He did, all those grumblers wouldn’t have walked away; was God remiss in His clarity/duties??? Why did He not use the word “figurative?” Why did the grumblers walk away even after Jesus used NATURAL things (bread, hunger, thirst) to teach SPIRITUAL truths??? Yes, He did it all of the time, and His followers never walked away, and when they didn’t understand, Jesus clarified; I ask with respect; why are you making this so difficult??? **

continued…
 
Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” [Mat 16:6]

**His followers did not comprehend, so Jesus said:
**

"…why do you conclude among yourselves that it is because you have no bread? Do you not yet understand, and do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many wicker baskets you took up? Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you took up? How do you not comprehend that I was not speaking to you about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Then they understood that he was not telling them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.Matthew 16

Russ, why did Jesus clarify in Matthew 16, but fail to clarify in John 6???

**5) When Jesus said: Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink…what did He mean, since the C.C. and E.O.C. seem to be clueless?
**
Still waiting for a viable answer!!!
  1. Why don’t you take Jesus literally when He says, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.”? Do you have your cross with you today?
**Did anyone question/murmur/grumble vis-a-vis this teaching, as they did in John 6? This is clear metaphorical language! **

6) In vs 63, Jesus said: It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
In vs 66, as a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. WHY???


**Still waiting for an answer to this question!!!
**

All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them… [Mat 13:34]

On that particular day Jesus was speaking to them in parable, and when He was finished, He said: Do you understand all these things?" And they answered, Yes. Wow…clarification!!!

"On that day, Jesus went out of the house and sat down by the sea.Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat down, and the whole crowd stood along the shore. And he spoke to them at length in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow… Do you understand all these things?” They answered, “Yes.”
  1. If Jesus never spoke to the people without a parable, how are His words in John 6:53 literal seeing that He was speaking to the people? Does the Bible contradict itself?
When Jesus spoke in parable, they always understood, and when they did not, He clarified; agreed? If Jesus was speaking in parable in John 6, why did He NOT clarify when they did not understand??? No the Holy Bible does not contradict itself, something you seem to be doing, as I use to do as a former Lutheran.

Russ, in your opinion, should I a) follow the grumblers? OR b) follow the Apostles?

**Still waiting for your answer!!!
**
  1. How can you be following the Apostles if they never established a priesthood. If you are trusting in an earthly priesthood, you are not following the Apostles for they never established one.
This is nothing more than a red herring my friend! What is your answer to the original question??? Did Jesus’ One church, which included a ministerial priesthood, for the first 300 years, properly follow the Apostles, or did the H.S. misguide Jesus’ One church, right from the word go???

Do you deny that the Apostles and their successors for the first 300 years, took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to their disciples, and said, Take eat; this is Christ’s Body… that the Apostles and their successors took the cup and gave thanks and gave it to their disciples, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this Christ’s blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." —just as Jesus instructed when He said: Do this in remembrance of me?


continued…
 
  1. If the priesthood is so essential to the Christian faith, why is it missing from the NT?
This priesthood is identical with the office of elder. In fact, the term “priest” is simply a shortened, English version of the Greek word for “elder” – presbuteros – as any Greek lexicon will confirm. Would you be cool with it if they went by the name presbyter???

**The Bible makes a clear distinction between clergy and laity, and I can provided many more passages! Russ, the priesthood precedes the codification/canonization of the Bible; for 300 years; men functioned as ordained priests and bishops through the imposition of hands; were they wrong to do this for the first 300 years of Christianity? Do you have any problem with the Bishophood, and their obedience to Christ when they do as He requested??? **

Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

“For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain presbyters in every city, as I also appointed thee” (Titus 1:5).

“Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the presbyters of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him” (James 5:14-15).
  • “I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty [literally, “the priestly work”] of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”
**Paul tells us that because he has been given a calling as a professional minister of Christ, he has a priestly work of preaching the gospel so that the Gentiles may be an offering – a sacrifice to God, and of doing as Jesus did at the last Supper, when He said: do this in remembrance of me -right?
**

**This is not something only he has. Every elder in every church, for the first 300 years, had that same “priestly work” of preaching the gospel, and doing as Jesus did at the last Supper, when He said: do this in remembrance of me!
**

**Paul here conceives of the office of the New Testament minister as a priestly office. Notice that the hearers of the gospel in this passage are not depicted as priest, but as the sacrifice to God. Paul draws a distinction between himself and his work of preaching the gospel, and his readers and their duty of hearing it. It is the ministerial presbyter, not the congregation, who is here pictured as priest.
**
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 1 Tim. 4:14

When they had appointed elders for them in every church…

And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.

Russ, Why didn’t they just take this unresolvable issue to their authoritative Bibles, instead of taking it to the authoritative church of Jerusalem, where Peter and James settled the dispute ???

Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the decrees which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe.

Why didn’t they deliver the bible, instead?
  1. If the priesthood is essential to Christianity and the Bible never established another earthly priesthood, how is the man of God made “complete” and “thoroughly equipped” without a priesthood in the following verse?
**This letter is written to Timothy, who as per sacred scripture, is a bishop, who is to pass on what he learned, to other bishops and presbyters, who will be learned men of God once they fully receive the “gift of God,” via the imposition of hands; below is the abridged version of 2 Timothy:
**

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God for the promise of life in Christ Jesus, to Timothy, my dear child: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord… I yearn to see you again, recalling your tears, so that I may be filled with joy, as I recall your sincere faith that first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and that I am confident lives also in you.
For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God that you have through the imposition of my hands…Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus…

…So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus…And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well…Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything…Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation… So turn from youthful desires and pursue righteousness, faith,love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord with purity of heart. Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels…correcting opponents with kindness…

…You have followed my teaching, way of life, purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, persecutions, and sufferings…But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

**Jesus is clearly addressing Timothy, not you or me!!! The Holy Bible did not exist when Tim was a child, therefore the sacred writings which are able to give Tim the wisdom…is not a reference to the N.T.; surely we are in agreement???
**

When Paul said to Tim, circa 55 AD, all Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work, did the codified/canonized bible exist??? The man of God pertains to the “ordained” presbyters, and “bishops”, such as Timothy! He is to teach others as Paul taught him!

7) A priest in any capacity is a mediator; do you consider yourself a priest?


No. A priest stands BETWEEN man and God. I stand shoulder to shoulder with all other believers at the foot of the cross. All believers have the same access to the High Priest by faith and we are all told to, “come boldly” to Him.

**Priests, or Presbyters, if you feel more comfortable using that word, and Bishops are servants and ministers, wholly dedicated/married to Christ alone, declaring the praises of Him who called us out of darkness into His, wonderful light; In addition to that, they also DO exactly as Jesus commanded when He said: this do in remembrance of me, and they too stand shoulder to shoulder with all other believers at the foot of the cross!!! **

**Your Bible refers to ALL Christians as priests, and a priest is a mediator, therefore you rightfully stand between man and Jesus, just as I do, as per the C.C. OF COURSE!
**

**All Christians are priests. Peter describes our relationship as spiritual stones in the spiritual house of God and as a holy priesthood: “You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood , offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” 1 Peter 2:5. Peter, then, asserts the emphatic nature of this relationship as priests, calling us a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation: “9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood , a holy nation, a
people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 1 Peter 2:9

The Revelation confirms all Christians as priests: “To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father.” Revelation
1:6. **
 
The fact that **God entrusted the NT to the CC **does not guarantee that the traditions of that church are infallible any more then entrusting the OT to the Jews guaranteed that the traditions of Israel are infallible.
To what traditions of Israel are you referring?

If God commanded the Israelites to do something, are you claiming they were wrong to follow these commands?
The Jews at the time of Christ were very prideful that they were Jews and not gentiles. Jesus rebuked them for their pride. I suggest you consider their example before you boast about the CC.
You may indeed be correct to point out my sin. But my sin is a stain on my *own *soul; it makes no statement at all about the Truth of the CC. Remember, Russ, the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church.

Nevertheless, it is good that you acknowledge that it is indeed the CC that gave you the Holy Scriptures. 👍 It is intellectually and spiritually honest of you to affirm that every single time you quote Scripture, you affirm the Truth and Infalliblity of the Holy Catholic Church.
 
Brad,

No, I am not referring to the “communion of desire”.

I asked several other bloggers the following question and never got an answer so I will ask you.

Suppose that a Jewish man is familiar with the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of the CC but remains faithful to his Jewish traditions instead. He is a loving, giving, caring and faithful man and He follows and practices his religion faithfully but he has not “desire” for communion in the CC. Can he be saved apart from professing Jesus as His Savior? I am not asking, “will he be saved”. I am asking, “can he be saved?”

Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. [Rom 10:1-3]
You can only be saved through the Blood of Christ. The only place you will find remission of sins. Regardless who you are. Ralph
 
You can only be saved through the Blood of Christ. The only place you will find remission of sins. Regardless who you are. Ralph
Ralph…

Did Jesus lie when He said to His Apostles:

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.:confused::confused::confused:
 
Ralph…

Did Jesus lie when He said to His Apostles:

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.:confused::confused::confused:
Jesus said, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. We are talking about salvation here. The apostles are dead and whatever power He gave them died with them. If you tell me that this power was passed on, you show me where all this power is today.Only God can forgive sin. Ralph
 
Jesus said, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. We are talking about salvation here. The apostles are dead and whatever power He gave them died with them. If you tell me that this power was passed on, you show me where all this power is today.
In John 21:15-19, we see Jesus appointing Peter to “feed His sheep” - that is, to be the chief Shepherd of the Church. Thus, Jesus passed His authority to Peter. We know from reading early documents of the Church, especially Eusebius’ History of the Church, which was written before the Emperor Constantine was even born yet, that the Papacy has been in place right from the very beginning.

How it got from there to here.
 
I did not see any proof that Peter was in Rome, those names are from the Roman catholic church. Ralph
Sorry ralphy, but this is incorrect. There was no Roman Rite in the Catholic Church at that time. The vast majority of the Church was Greek, with some Syrian and Egyptian Rites. No Roman.

I think your question about Peter being in Rome is off topic here. The fact that Re was in Rome does not cause the Catholic Church to be “Roman”, any more than his previous presence in Antioch makes the church “Antiochan”.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a87.htm

(1) Tertullian (c. AD 197) speaks of Peter apart from Paul as ordaining Clement as his episcopal successor (De Praescrip Haer 32).

(2) The Poem Against Marcion (c. 200 AD) states how “Peter bade Linus to take his place and sit on the chair whereon he himself had sat” (III, 80). The word “chair” (cathedra) in ecclesiastical language always means one’s episcopal throne (i.e. the bishop’s chair).

(3) Caius of Rome (214 AD) calls Pope Victor the thirteenth bishop of Rome after Peter (Euseb HE V, 28).

(4) Hippolytus (225 AD) counts Peter as the first Bishop of Rome (Dict Christian Biog I, 577).

(5) Cyprian (in 250) speaks of Rome as “the place of Peter” (Ep ad Anton), and as “the Chair of Peter” (Ep ad Pope Cornelius).

(6) Firmilian (257) speaks of Pope Stephen’s claim to the “succession of Peter” and to the “Chair of Peter” (Ep ad Cyprian).

(7) Eusebius (314) says that Peter was “the bishop of Rome for twenty-five years” (Chron an 44), and calls Linus “first after Peter to obtain the episcopate” (Chron an 66). He also says that Victor was “the thirteenth bishop of Rome after Peter” (HE III, 4).

(8) The Council of Sardica “honors the memory of the Apostle Peter” in granting Pope Julius I the right to judge cases involving other episcopal sees under imperial Roman law (Sardica Canon IV, and Ep ad Pope Julius).

(9) Athanasius (340’s) calls Rome the “Apostolic Throne” – a reference to the Apostle Peter as the first bishop to occupy that throne (Hist Arian ad Monarch 35).

(10) Optatus (370) says that the episcopal chair of Rome was first established by Peter, “in which chair sat Peter himself.” He also says how “Peter first filled the pre-eminent chair,” which “is the first of the marks of the Church.” (Schism Donat II, 2 and II, 3).

(11) Pope Damasus (370) speaks of the “Apostolic chair” in which “the holy Apostle sitting, taught his successors how to guide the helm of the Church” (Ep ix ad Synod, Orient ap Theodoret V, 10). Damasus also states how “The first See is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman church” and says how Rome received primacy not by the conciliar decisions of the other churches, but from the evangelic voice of the Lord, when He says, “Thou art Peter…” (Decree of Damasus 382).

(12) Ambrose (c. 390) speaks of Rome as “Peter’s chair” and the Roman church where “Peter, first of the Apostles, first sat” (De Poenit I, 7-32, Exp Symb ad Initiand).

(13) Jerome (c. 390) speaks of Rome as the “chair of Peter” and the “Apostolic chair,” and states that Peter held the episcopal chair for twenty-five years at Rome (Epistle 15 and se Vir Illust I, 1).

(14) Augustine (c. 400) tells us to number the bishops of Rome from the chair of Peter itself (in Ps contra Part Donat), and speaks of “the chair of the Roman church in which Peter first sat” (Contra Lit Petil).

(15) Prudentius (405) writes how in Rome there were “the two princes of the Apostles, one the Apostle of the Gentiles, the other holding the First Chair” (Hymn II in honor of St Laurent, V).

(16) Bachiarius (420) speaks of Rome as “the chair of Peter, the seat of faith” (De Fide 2).

(17) Prosper of Aquitaine (429) calls Rome “the Apostolic See” and the “Chair of the Apostle Peter” (Carm de Ingratis).

(18) The Roman legates at the Council of Ephesus (431) declare how “it is a matter doubtful to none that Peter lived and exercised judgement in his successors” and how “the holy and most blessed [Pope] Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place” (Acta Councilia, session 3, tom III, col 621).

(19) Peter Chrysologus (440) speaks of “blessed Peter living and presiding in his own see” (Ep ad Eutech).

(20) Pope Leo the Great (440) says how “the whole Church acknowledges Peter in the See of Peter (Rome)” (Serm II, 2).

(21) At the Council of Chalcedon (451), the assembled bishops respond to the teaching of Pope Leo the Great by crying out, “Peter has spoken through Leo.” The sentence of the council is pronounced by the legates “in the name of Leo, the Council, and St. Peter” (Canons of Chalcedon).

(22) The Synodical Letter to Pope Leo from Chalcedon calls the Pope “the interpreter of Peter’s voice.”

(23) Emperors Theodosius and Valentinian III (450) speak of “the primacy of the Apostolic See (Rome), made firm on account of the merits of Peter, Chief of the Corona of Bishops” (Inter ep Leon I, Vol XI, col 637).

“If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger.” Pope Clement of Rome,
1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

“Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).

“And he says to him again after the resurrection, ‘Feed my sheep.’ It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided.” Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).

“Philip, presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See, said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: Our holy and most blessed Pope Celestine the bishop is according to due order his successor and holds his place…Accordingly the decision of all churches is firm, for the priests of the eastern and western churches are present…Wherefore Nestorius knows that he is alienated from the communion of the priests of the Catholic Church.” Council of Ephesus, Session III (A.D. 431).

The early Church was not “Roman” ralphy. The Roman Rite did develop later, and maintained the Church throughout the world through the unity of doctrine.
 
Code:
Only God can establish a priesthood because only God has the authority to determine how He can be approached
Amen! It is very Catholic of you to say this!

God detailed the OT priesthood over many LARGE books of the OT consisting of huge portions of scripture that detail every offering, who can be a priest, how to construct the tabernacle, etc. etc. etc.
Code:
God gave tremendous detail concerning the OT priesthood and then He fails to even mention “priest” in the NT?  There is not ONE reference in the NT to any new earthly priesthood and if God did not establish the priesthood then it is an illegitimate priesthood.
Well, we read it differently, don’t we?

How do you suppose it was that the early church came off the rails in the very second generation?
Nothing about this word “Do” has anything to do with offering sacrifice:
  1. to make
    a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
    b) to be the authors of, the cause
    c) to make ready, to prepare
    d) to produce, bear, shoot forth
    e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one’s self
    f) to make a thing out of something
    g) to (make i.e.) render one anything
  2. to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that
  3. to (make i.e.) declare one anything
    h) to put one forth, to lead him out
    i) to make one do something
  4. cause one to
    j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
  5. to do
    a) to act rightly, do well
  6. to carry out, to execute
    b) to do a thing unto one
  7. to do to one
    c) with designation of time: to pass, spend
    d) to celebrate, keep
  8. to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover
    e) to perform: to a promise
This is not surprising to hear. Most of those who are separated from the Apostolic Succession have lost the understanding of sacrifice in the Christian walk. However, the Passover Lamb was, indeed sacrificed, and Jesus did sacrifice Himself for our sins. He commanded a re-enactment of the Passover using bread and wine, since He is the unblemished Lamb.

Keeping the Passover was not separated from the sacrifice of the lamb. In like manner, keeping the Eucharist is not separated from the sacrifice of The Lamb.
You can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say if you try hard enough but the fact remains that there is no office of priest in the NT in spite of the many places that it SHOULD be listed like:

… God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
No, Berean, Catholics are not at liberty to “make the bible say” what ever we want. We are not permitted to depart from the Apostolic Teachings in interpreting scripture.

There is the office of the presbyter in the NT. I think you find it necessary to deny this. The “list” you are citing does not contain a reference to deacons and bishops either. Are you claiming that, since they do not appear in this list,that they don’t exist either?

You are not authorized by God to decide what "should be listed’ where in scripture. You are only authorized by your own hubris. Your denial of the facts will only make them disappear for yourself, not for anyone else.
 
The Greek “elder or presbyter” does NOT mean “priest” in English. It means “overseer”
Well, Berean, as I have said, “priest” is a Latinization that was brought into the English language. The duties of the elder or presbyter in scripture are the same as those of the priest today. Although it is true that priests are overseers of the flock whose care they are given, they are not necessarily overseers. Not all priests become bishops.
The Greek word for “priest” is “hiereus” and is used throughout the NT but it is never used to refer to anyone in the Church except Jesus Christ.
You are right. Christian priests are not of the heireus variety. There are no more sacrifices to be offered than the One which has been offered and is eternally efficacious. What the presbyter does is make that Once for All sacrifice present to us here and now.
 
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