Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[NotWorthy]

Is it a MORTAL sin if you fail to attend a holy day of obligation? Is it a mortal sin to fail to receive communion on a regular basis? Sin is the result of the LAW. Where there is no law there is no transgression.

The priesthood, the obligations, the ability to be condemned because I fail to attend this or pray that are all SHOUTING that you are under law, not under grace.

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

I was pondering this statement on Law. It seems our good Apostles may have fallen into error right out of the shoot.

In Acts, 15, we see James imposing what? Disciplinary Laws on the Faithful Gentiles!

‘It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’

 

[joe370]

The One C.C. was one and united as per the bible for the first 1500 years, all the while taking disputes to the shepherds of Jesus’ one church, as per the One Holy bible

The multifarious P.C.'s are divided and insular, which is heavily frowned upon in the one bible, and have been for the last 500 years, all the while taking disputes to the One Holy Bible given to them by the One C.C. to settle disputes.

Which system is working???

Let us take a glance at what the Holy bible, compiled by the C.C., has to say on the issue!

Jesus’ church was to be one: John 10:16; – there shall be one fold and one shepherd Eph 4:3-6; – one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father Rom 16:17; – avoid those who create dissensions 1 Cor 1:10; – I urge that there be no divisions among you Phil 2:2; – be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing Rom 15:5; – God grant you to think in harmony with one another Jn 17:17-23; – I pray that they may be one, as we are one Jn 17: 23; – that they may be brought to perfection as one 1 Cor 12:13; – in one spirit we were baptized into one body Rom 12:5; – we, though many, are one body in Christ Eph 4:4; – one body, one Spirit, called to one hope Col 3:15; – the peace into which you were called in one body.

 

[guanophore]

Is it a MORTAL sin if you fail to attend a holy day of obligation? Is it a mortal sin to fail to receive communion on a regular basis? Sin is the result of the LAW. Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Sin is missing the mark. Jesus commanded that, to be on target (bulls eye) we are to take His Body and Blood. His commandments are not burdensome.

 The priesthood, the obligations, the ability to be condemned because I fail to attend this or pray that are all SHOUTING that you are under law, not under grace.

I think they shout that to you, Berean, because you don’t understand that these things are avenues of grace. By refraining from them, we withdraw from grace. It is separation from grace that makes us fall into sin.

 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

You are right. It is a very Catholic verse, is it not?

Withdrawal from the sacraments occurs when we are estranged from Christ. It can result from a fall into sin, or precipitate one, or both.

Or in other words, the words of Jesus have absolutely no meaning whatsoever to the Catholic. We only listen to the Pope. Perhaps if Jesus had said, “Amen, I really mean it, amen again and one more time, amen…” then we might consider taking Him at His word.

Catholics understand the words of Christ the way the Apostles did, because we have the Apostolic Succession, and the Word of God preserved in the Sacred Traditions. People who are outside of the Apostolic Teachings understand His words according to their modern limited perceptions.

Then that includes that Jew and the Muslim and the heathen as well, right? They are all part of this universal church.

No, only the saved are part of the Church.

You vacillate back and forth. First is takes a tremendous miracle of the most unusual sort for the Jew to be saved outside of the CC but the next almost everyone is part of this grand church even if they do not desire to be.

For us, there is no “vacillation”. Both things are true.

How are they saved apart from eating the flesh of the Son of Man?

“Amen, amen…unless you eat…”

You have no right to change the word of God.

No one is saved apart from Christ. There is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved.

He gave this commandment to His Apostles. Those who have not received the commandment cannot be held responsible for not keeping it.

And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?–as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. [Rom 3:8]

You did not answer the question, Berean. What does it mean, that they can “retain” sins?

What covenant at the time of Abraham required a sacrifice? None.

I can’t believe you wrote this. You really need to go back and read the stories of Abraham again. You should start with the part about how God asked him to sacrifice his only son.

The law which required sacrifices (and therefore priests) was 400 years later.

The priesthood is older than the Law of Moses. Melchizedech shows us this.

No scripture in the Bible refers to Abraham as a priest. I doubt that any CC document refers to him as a priest either. You are out on a limb both Biblically and according to your own CCC.

Abraham was required by God to make a sacrifice. This is part of the covenantal relationship with God.

Aren’t you interpreting the Bible yourself here? Who gave you the authority to interpret the Bible?

Catholics understand scripture from the point of view from which it was written.

I challenge you to show me one scripture that gives you the authority to interpret the Word of God.

Authority is given to the Church. When we interpret as individuals, we are required to remain within the Teaching of the Apostles, of which the Church is the custodian.

 

[joe370]

Did God fail…

The primary reason I ask this question is, if you answer no, then a very important decision must be made. Of course, if you feel that God failed, then it’s all a moot point and you can simply stop reading. For Christians, a key part of the message of Jesus deals with HIS Church. Everyone agrees that Jesus DID found a Church (as verified by Mt 16:18) and she was one for 1500 years, which the Apostles did organize in a certain way (Acts 4 & 6), and that this Church held “meetings” (councils) during which God inspired the leaders to make the correct decisions, 300 years before the bible was codified! TO BE DONE IN PERPETUITY. On this there is no disagreement. But let us see what follows from these facts…

If that Church was necessary for these functions (such as making decisions correctly regarding Christian teachings), THEN this SAME Church MUST exist in the SAME form with the SAME authority today, because the same needs and problems exist now (even more so) as then, and will in the future. Furthermore Jesus empowered His church SHEPHERDS to be shepherds of men, “Therefore, as a fellow elder, a witness of the Messiah’s sufferings, and one who shares in the glory to be revealed, I appeal to the elders (ministerial priests) among you: Be shepherds of God’s flock that is among you, watching over it, not because you must but because you want to, and not greedily but eagerly, as God desires. Do not lord it over the people entrusted to you, but be examples to the flock. Then, when the Chief Shepherd (High Priest –Jesus) appears, you will receive the victor’s crown of glory that will never fade away.” Jesus said He would be with His church “forever.” --Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Criteria for Jesus’ “one” church:
One Church was established by Jesus Christ circa 33 AD; That Church must still exist today, otherwise God is a failure —according to the Bible. Today we see thousands of churches with variegated truths, all of which can only be traced back to CHURCHES ESTABLISHED BY a mere man or woman. The Catholic Church can trace her lineage all the way back to Jesus Christ who appointed St. Peter, formerly known as Simon Bar-jona-or, “son of Jona” as His chief shepherd in His stead. God rules, instructs and sanctifies His people through His Church. Under her teaching office, the Jesus’ One Church preserved the bible for 1500 years; protestants wouldn’t even have a bible if not for the C.C. She WAS AND STILL is the custodian, keeper, dispenser and interpreter of the teachings of Jesus Christ, just as she was before one P.C. was built by a mere man, and she accomplishes this under the protection/guidance of the Holy Spirit. The sixty-four-thousand-dollar question I had to ask myself was, which one is it, amidst the myriad churches in the world today?

 

[BereanRuss]

How can one receive the Holy Spirit and retain sins?

How can that possibly be, if one receives the Holy Spirit in order to retain a sin?

PR, honestly I am not messing with you. I need to see what you are talking about in the word of God. Can you show me any example?

I want to be sure that I understand your question before I respond.

 

[vinarabo]

Berean,
With all due respect to your book knowlege of the Bible, you are LOST! You have twisted what the Bible says in so many ways, i think that even you yourself are confused. This is why you need the Church. The church who has taught the same thing for 2000 years, and does not change. You make it up as you go along. You cant do that. I think you know better than that, but you dont like to lose an argument. Suck it up, leave your ego at the door, and get to know Jesus. Have a real relationship with Him, and you will see Him lead you to His Church. One, Holy, catholic, and Apostolic. No one else can make that claim. You are not of one belief, you are one of many who have different beliefs. You are not Holy, Holiness is an attribute given to those who have the Authority given to them. You are not catholic (universal) The universal Church is the same throughout the world you believe what makes sense to you, as does every person who claims the mantle of interpreting the Bible their own way. and finally, you are not Apostolic, you can not trace your belief all the way back to the Apostles like the Catholic Church can.
You are your own one man church.

 

[PRmerger]

PR, honestly I am not messing with you. I need to see what you are talking about in the word of God. Can you show me any example?

I want to be sure that I understand your question before I respond.

I understand and believe you’re not messing with me.

But, Russ, you don’t need to understand anything at all about what I believe to answer my question:

How do you interpret John 20:23?

In other words, what does it mean to retain someone’s sins, after one has received the Holy Spirit?

 

[guanophore]

No, again, for the Nth time, the Greek word for priest is “hiereus”. The word 'presbuteros’ means “overseer”.

No, Berean. You need some word study. I just read a good post with clear definitions that show the English word “priest” is derived from a Latinization of the Gk. word presbyteros. This is an historical fact.

An “overseer” is a bishop (episkipos). Priest serve under the bishops. Bishops are the successors fo the Apostles.

The word “hiereus” is NEVER used of any leader in the NT church except Jesus ALONE.

No arguement there! You are the only one here who is trying to misuse this word.

Joe, looks like you are making enemies in both camps, friend.

No, I would have no problem with that as long as my relationship with God is through Jesus Christ, the one mediator between God and man. As soon as you say that my relationship with God is dependant upon another man other that Jesus, that is when I call you a liar.

You certainly do seem to have a serious trust issue here. It is God who has chosen to work through people. If you don’t trust the people He has chosen, then the bottom line is that you don’t trust God.

Let me ask you a question. In the OT there was a priest between God and man, right?

YOu seem to see the role of the ministerial priest as an obstacle to God, rather than someone appointed by God to make God more accessible. This is where your understanding of the priesthood departs from the Apostolic Teaching. God appointed priests to better manifest His grace to men. They are not an obstacle, but an opportunity!

Why is it that in the NT I am further away from God then I was in the old?

It seems that you don’t understand either of the testaments!

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus… [1 tim 2:5]

This verse was written by a Catholic, for Catholics! Priests are caught up into the ministry of mediation by Christ, and partake of the ministry of reconciling the world to God.

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Seems that Paul is not interested in performing hs priestly duties.

On the contrary, Paul took these duties most seriously. He understood that his primary calling was to preach and to teach, but he made sure all the converts were baptized, and appointed priests to catechize them. If Paul had baptized every convert he made, he would never have time for prayer, scripture study, and preaching. There were too many! He travelled with a group of helpers who did the baptizing. This is the same way that deacons help the priests today.

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom 8:38, 39]

Ahhh. This is a very common misapplication of this scripture. People often misunderstand it to mean that we cannot any longer be separated from God by sin. That is not what this passage says, though. God will love us, right through the gates of hell. Those whom He loves can walk away from Him, and choose a life apart from Him, and He lets them go. That is how much Love He has!

Mark 10:19-22
20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth.” 21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 At that saying his countenance fell, **and he went away **sorrowful; for he had great possessions.

God’s love let him walk.

 

[guanophore]

You cannot be “born of water” by sprinkling. Water does not bring dead things to life. Water helps living things to thrive but it cannot produce life. You cannot be born of sprinkling.

You can be born again by the word of God and the word of God is referred to as “water” in the Bible:

…having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever… [1 Pet 1:23]

…that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word… [Eph 5:26]

This is a reference to water baptism. If you are willing to be honest, and look at the testimony of the early church fathers, this will be clear to you. The Word of God is not separated from the waters of regeneration.

Agreed. This authority is for all whom Jesus has breathed upon and filled with His Spirit.

In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise… [Eph 1:13]

Those upon whom He breathed, Russ, were in the upper room. Yes, we are all sealed with the HS in baptism, but that is not the same as the ordination He gave to the Apostles.

Jesus told those who believed in Him to remember Him. Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord is in His church.

No, actually, many will call Him “Lord” yet do not the things He has said.

Matt 7:22-23
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Luke 6:46-49
46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? 47 Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep, and laid the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 But he who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.”

I do not deny that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. The church is made of those who are born again of the Holy Spirit. They contain the truth in earthen vessels not in a catechism.

There is no distinction between the truth that is held in earthen vessels and the catechism. Catechism means to “faithfully echo”. Each generation, the Apostolic Teachings are faithfully echoed to the next “earthen vessels”.

And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?–as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

This is an example of how the Apostles “retain” sins.

Do you have a better example from the Bible?

I am sorry, I cannot understand your “example”. It does not seem to me to have anything to do with retaining sins.

…we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. [2 Cor 4:7]

If the truth of God is contained in a catechism, them man is glorified but if God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, then God is glorified.

I think you misunderstand the catechism, Russ. It is the Teaching of the Apostles made clear for our day and time. The teaching of the Apostles comes from God, not from man.

Show me an example form scripture of what you are referring to. let me see your theology in the word of God, not in a catechism.

Acts 8:19-23
20 But Peter said to him, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.”

Peter is telling Simon that his sin is retained. Simon then pleads for the priestly intercession of Peter:

Acts 8:23-24
24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

scripture does not indicate that Peter ever did so…

 

[guanophore]

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

So, answer the question. Which is greater?

The Apostles never separated the two. God was demonstrating to Peter that He intended the Gentiles to be baptized and become members of the Body. This is why Peter felt he could “not withhold water”. He understood that water baptism was to accompany the Spirit, and vice versa. Go back and read the sermon in Acts 2.

Acts 2:37-39
“Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Sometimes the water came first, sometimes the Spirit manifested first, sometimes they were together. The Apostles never separated them.

 

[joe370]

I do not deny that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. The church is made of those who are born again of the Holy Spirit. They contain the truth in earthen vessels not in a catechism.

Russ, Ralph, anyone…

How can hundreds of churches, isolated from one another, all teaching something different when it comes to any one doctrine, be the Pillar and Foundation of truth? Can there be more than one truth regarding any one doctrine? This is not a problem in the C.C.; that was what drew me to her! We as Christians belonging to the C.C. are not to proud to defer to wisdom/authority of the Holy Spirit Who is “teaching” and “guiding” the C.C…to correctly interpret what she codified/canonized, and that is why I believe in a literal interpretation of John 6; plus it just makes sense! We, including myself, seem to have forgotten all about John 6:53

 

[SHW]

In other words, it is not your theology that is wrong, it is that the Bible is wrong or incomplete or insufficient.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

God proclaims that the scripture is able to make the believer “complete” and “thoroughly equipped” yet the NT does not include another earthly priesthood. How can the believer be complete without the priesthood? (…unless they are complete in Christ)

Hi Russ,

Scripture is helpful because it helps the man of God to “become complete” so that he can be thoroughly equipped for every good work. However, in order to actually be complete, he also must adhere to the oral preaching/teachings of the Church, according to St. Paul.

2 Thessalonians 2:14-15 “to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Did you notice that “our sinning ways” IS NOT included in this. You see, we can simply separate ourselves from the love of God.

How true!

When we defile our temples (souls) with sin after Baptism, and if we do not repent before death, then God destroys us. We separate ourselves from God through our own mortal sin.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Not true. This statement was made to believers and non-believers alike. Those who left did not partake of His body and do not have life according to Jesus.

BereanRuss:

I think we’re now seeing what happens when the context of a verse is ignored…

Here is John 6 in 5 different translations on Bible Gateway. Please note these headings from the English Standard Version:
Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand - v. 1-15
Jesus Walks on Water - v. 16-21
I am the Bread of Life - v. 22-59
The Words of Eternal Life - v. 60-71 (excerpted below)
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in Himself that His disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him.) And He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.
John 6:60-66 ESV
I want you to note, “When many of his disciples heard it,…” and, “After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.”

I’m sorry, Russ, but our Lord was very clearly talking to His disciples and those who were following Him. I’ve never heard of anyone claiming that Jews or Muslims were either Christians or followers of Jesus Christ.

A Muslim who never has a chance of hearing the Gospel of Christ, or of even finding a Church where he can receive the Body of Christ, can’t be expected to be held to the standard you or I would be held to. God is far more loving and merciful than that, and if you are going to claim that the Catholic Church (and the Eastern Orthodox Church because they hold this too) is somehow hypocritical because she believes and teaches that our Lord tempered His own words with this MERCY even as He spoke them, then maybe you either don’t know our Lord as well as you think you do, or you came here to argue.

I’m sorry to say that, but this is getting pointless after 4 pages and 60 posts.

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Only the law creates the need for a priest. No law = no priest required.

Abraham had a relationship with God by faith without any earthly priest. The entrance of the law is the catalyst that then produced the priesthood.

BereanRuss:

What about Melchizedek, King of Salem and Priest of God Most High, who met Abram?
Then one who had escaped came and told Abram the Hebrew, who was living by the oaks of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol and of Aner. These were allies of Abram. When Abram heard that his kinsman had been taken captive, he led forth his trained men, born in his house, 318 of them, and went in pursuit as far as Dan. And he divided his forces against them by night, he and his servants, and defeated them and pursued them to Hobah, north of Damascus. Then he brought back all the possessions, and also brought back his kinsman Lot with his possessions, and the women and the people.

After his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley). And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High.) And he blessed him and said,

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
and blessed be God Most High,
who has delivered your enemies into your hand!” And Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of everything.

Genesis 14:13-20 ESV
​

Please Note that Melchizedek met Abram (who became Abraham) BEFORE the giving of the LAW. This from Psalm 110.
The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.”

The LORD sends forth from Zion
your mighty scepter.
Rule in the midst of your enemies!
Your people will offer themselves freely
on the day of your power,
in holy garments;
from the womb of the morning,
the dew of your youth will be yours.
The LORD has sworn
and will not change his mind,
“You are a priest forever
after the order of Melchizedek.”

Psalm 110:1-4 ESV
And, This from the Epistle of the Hebrews, also about our Lord:
So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,

“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”;as he says also in another place,

“You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek.” In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Heb 5:5-10 ESV
​

If you had properly been catechized when you were a Catholic, you would know that, when a priest confects the Lord’s Body and Blood in the Sacrifice of the Mass or gives Absolution in the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation or Anoints someone in the Sacrament of Healing/Unction, he acts in persona Christi, in the place of Christ.

And, what do you do with this from St. Paul the Apostle?
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
Colossians 1:24-26 ESV
Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[BereanRuss]

How do you interpret John 20:23?

In other words, what does it mean to retain someone’s sins, after one has received the Holy Spirit?

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The verse does not say that a person’s sins are retained after receiving the Holy Spirit. Where do you get that?

And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!”

If Jesus was willing to receive sinners apart from any priesthood when He walked in Jerusalem, what makes you think that an earthly priest is required now that Jesus is resurrected?

Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. [Heb 4:16]

If all believers have access to the throne of grace, why go to an earthly priest when we have access to the High Priest?

 

[BereanRuss]

Berean, With all due respect to your book knowledge of the Bible, you are LOST!

Seeing that I am lost and you are not, perhaps you can answer a question I have.

Do you think that those who heard John the Baptist should have confessed their sins and been baptized in the Jordan or do you think that they should have ignored him? How did those who heard him preach decide that He was of the truth without the teaching of the church or the approval of the religious leaders?

 

[cazayoux]

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The verse does not say that a person’s sins are retained after receiving the Holy Spirit. Where do you get that?

Nobody is saying this.
The apostles, after receiving the Holy Spirit, are given the power to retain sins.
WHY?

And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!”

If Jesus was willing to receive sinners apart from any priesthood when He walked in Jerusalem, what makes you think that an earthly priest is required now that Jesus is resurrected?

JESUS is the priest!!! (and prophet, and king)
There IS a new testament priesthood.
Jesus is the high priest.

Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. [Heb 4:16]

If all believers have access to the throne of grace, why go to an earthly priest when we have access to the High Priest?

So you admit, there is a new testament priesthood with Jesus as the high priest!
Great!
So did those new Christian need to listen to the apostles?
Why did Paul write all of those letters to people that were already Christians, to answer questions and correct them?
If those people that were already Christians already have Jesus as the high priest, why listen to the apostles?

michel

 

[rinnie]

Yes, we believe it with all of our heart and soul. It is the core of our faith.

 

[cazayoux]

Seeing that I am lost and you are not, perhaps you can answer a question I have.

Do you think that those who heard John the Baptist should have confessed their sins and been baptized in the Jordan or do you think that they should have ignored him? How did those who heard him preach decide that He was of the truth without the teaching of the church or the approval of the religious leaders?

That IS an interesting question and good discussion.
The Jews today (pharisaic) do not baptize.
The Sadducees did not baptize.
Was there another whole community of Jews that DID baptize.
Surely, since John the Baptist was doing exactly this.
What was this separate Jewish community?
Was Qumran (where the dead sea scrolls were found) the community that John was from?
Was this the same community that Jesus was from? (since he and John the baptist were related)
How did this community operate?

One interesting note about the dead sea scrolls is that scrolls were found in the earthen jars. The inspired scripture was not separated from other writings. They were all mixed and combined in different jars.
I wonder if that is significant.

All interesting questions.
Regarding why those at the Jordan would listen and believe John … it’s obvious they were not going by scripture alone, but listening to him … and following his Tradition of baptizing.

michel