Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[jmcrae]

Any decent theology must reconcile all that the Bible says on any particular subject. On the subject of salvation the Bible says:

…if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [Rom 10:9]

And it also says:

Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. [John 6:53]

Please explain how you reconcile these verses. How is a person saved? Only when they regularly partake of communion in the CC or when they confess with their mouth and believe in their heart?

These two things are not separated, in the Catholic Church.

We say “AMEN” when we receive Holy Communion, to confess with our mouth that we believe in our heart, that Jesus is risen from the dead and present to us in that same Eucharist with which we are about to become united in body and soul.

Confessing and receiving are two parts of the same action.

 

[guanophore]

Not true. This statement was made to believers and non-believers alike. Those who left did not partake of His body and do not have life according to Jesus.

It seems clear from the context that it is directed to His disciples. Those who walked away were DISCIPLES, who could not accept this “hard saying”. This commandment was then, as it is now, a litmus test of faith. Those who are not able to embrace the mystery cannot go into the Eucharist.

 

[BereanRuss]

Nobody is saying this.
The apostles, after receiving the Holy Spirit, are given the power to retain sins.
WHY?

God has given the church authority to preach the Gospel. Those who receive the Gospel are forgiven. Those who reject it are not.

If there is more to the retention of sins, perhaps you can show me an example of what you are talking about from the book of Acts or from the epistles.

So you admit, there is a new testament priesthood with Jesus as the high priest!
Great! So did those new Christian need to listen to the apostles? Why did Paul write all of those letters to people that were already Christians, to answer questions and correct them? If those people that were already Christians already have Jesus as the high priest, why listen to the apostles?

I have never said that there is not a NT priesthood. I have said there is NO EARTHLY priesthood in the NT. Jesus is our High Priest and ALL believers have equal access to His throne of grace. No leader in the NT church is ever referred to as a priest. None.

God is a God of order and in the church of the living God there is order. We are to submit to the order that God has established. I am sure you agree.

 

[BereanRuss]

It seems clear from the context that it is directed to His disciples. Those who walked away were DISCIPLES, who could not accept this “hard saying”. This commandment was then, as it is now, a litmus test of faith. Those who are not able to embrace the mystery cannot go into the Eucharist.

Those who walked away were following Jesus for the wrong reason…

Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

A disciple is a “learner”. They did not want to lean of Jesus but were only interested in eating more free bread. Therefore, they were not disciples.

 

[guanophore]

God has given the church authority to preach the Gospel. Those who receive the Gospel are forgiven. Those who reject it are not.

If there is more to the retention of sins, perhaps you can show me an example of what you are talking about from the book of Acts or from the epistles.

I agree, the Church is given the authority to preach the Gospel. I agree that those who are baptized into Christ are forgiven. I agree that those who reject it are not. However, the commandment was given for the post baptismal sins.

I have never said that there is not a NT priesthood. I have said there is NO EARTHLY priesthood in the NT.

So, you think the NT priesthood only applies to the members of the Church who are in heaven already?

Jesus is our High Priest and ALL believers have equal access to His throne of grace.

The OT was a type and a model of what was to come. There was a high priest, a ministerial priesthood, and a priesthood of the nation to the world. This is what is manifested in the NT.

No leader in the NT church is ever referred to as a priest. None.

Russ, you are just holding out, are you not, on your stubborn refusal to accept the facts? I have read 17 separate posts to you explaining that the word “priest” is a Latinization of the Gk. word “presbyter”.

There was no Latin being used in the Church at the time, as the Roman Rite had not yet developed. The NT was written in Gk, and these roles were described as “elders”.

God is a God of order and in the church of the living God there is order. We are to submit to the order that God has established. I am sure you agree.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

 

[BereanRuss]

1)by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So then you are saying that the guidance of the Holy Spirit is more important then the guidance of the leaders of the Jews? If you were a Jew at the time of Paul, would you follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit and leave the religion that God established and follow Paul’s teachings instead?

Are you saying that the leading of the Holy Spirit in an INDIVIDUAL’S life is more important than following the leaders in the religion that God had established?

 

[BereanRuss]

I agree, the Church is given the authority to preach the Gospel. I agree that those who are baptized into Christ are forgiven. I agree that those who reject it are not. However, the commandment was given for the post baptismal sins.

Scripture please.

 

[BereanRuss]

These two things are not separated, in the Catholic Church.

We say “AMEN” when we receive Holy Communion, to confess with our mouth that we believe in our heart, that Jesus is risen from the dead and present to us in that same Eucharist with which we are about to become united in body and soul.

Confessing and receiving are two parts of the same action.

So then only those in the CC can be saved.

 

[cazayoux]

If there is more to the retention of sins, perhaps you can show me an example of what you are talking about from the book of Acts or from the epistles.

I’ve already gone one better and shown you the GOSPEL.

John 20:21-23
Why does the risen Jesus give the apostles the power to retain sins?

Would you rather throw out the gospels and only read the letters, and in the process create your own, new gospel?

I have never said that there is not a NT priesthood. I have said there is NO EARTHLY priesthood in the NT. Jesus is our High Priest and ALL believers have equal access to His throne of grace. No leader in the NT church is ever referred to as a priest. None.

Romans 15:16 (Revised Standard Version - which is a Protestant version)
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the ***priestly ***service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

From Strong’s concordance:

to be a minister (leitourgos)
as a priest (hierourgeō)

You SEE the word ‘hierus’ that you think only means the O.T. priesthood referring here (in the N.T.) to being a minister of the Gospel.
You say believers have equal access, but without regard for WHO to go to for the truth. ‘Believing’ means listening to ALL that was learned from the apostles. If Joe Shmoe, as a believer, understands something differently than other believers, they have an AUTHORITY to go to to KNOW the truth. The Church. Does he turn to the guy at the left, the right, or instead does he turn to, just possibly, Paul, Timothy, those appointed by Timothy, or even those appointed by Timothy’s appointees?

God is a God of order and in the church of the living God there is order. We are to submit to the order that God has established. I am sure you agree.

I agree … And I see NO order in protestantism.

michel

 

[PRmerger]

So, Russ…could you please tell me, in your own words, what you would tell your, say, 12 yr old son if he said, “Dad, what does it mean to retain someone’s sins after one receives the Holy Spirit? Why was Jesus telling his apostles to forgive men’s sins and retain men’s sins?”

Also, NotWorthy added to the discussion with post #789.

What say you?

 

[NotWorthy]

  			Originally Posted by **guanophore** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5087316#post5087316) 				
  		*I agree, the Church is given the authority to preach the Gospel. I agree that those who are baptized into Christ are forgiven. I agree that those who reject it are not. However, the commandment was given for the post baptismal sins.*

Scripture please.

John 20:19-23.

We know, in Baptism, that all sins have been forgiven. Why else is there a further need to forgive sins if not the “post-baptismal” sins?

You see John 20:20-23 as an “affirmation of the Forgiveness of God”. Jesus in no way words it that way. He places the forgiveness on the shoulders of the Apostles.

 

[NotWorthy]

So then only those in the CC can be saved.

No, only those that God judges righteous will be saved.

 

[NotWorthy]

So, Russ…could you please tell me, in your own words, what you would tell your, say, 12 yr old son if he said, “Dad, what does it mean to retain someone’s sins after one receives the Holy Spirit? Why was Jesus telling his apostles to forgive men’s sins and retain men’s sins?”

Also, NotWorthy added to the discussion with post #789.

What say you?

Well, you blew it PR by adding me to your quote. You’ll never get your questioned answered now!

And just to show you what I’m talking about:

  			Originally Posted by **NotWorthy** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5080046#post5080046) 				
  		*BereanRuss, (and even Ralphy.... for you still haven't answered the question, yet)

You may have answered this already, but this thread is going so fast…

How do you read John 6:53 in anyway BUT literal?

In ancient Israel, according to the Psalms, to “eat someone’s flesh*”, in a figurative way, was to “loathe and revile” someone.

How can you possibly take John 6:53 figuratively, understanding this? Couldn’t this be the very reason the ancient Jews had so much trouble accepting this hard teaching.

 

[cazayoux]

OOHHHHHh … Am I getting this right? … Russ equates from John 20:21-23 that forgiving sin means preaching the gospel and someone accepting it versus retaining sin which is someone not accepting the gospel?

Russ is THIS your interpretation of John 20:21-23?

michel

 

[hawkeye]

My question is, do Catholics truly believe the words of Jesus in John 6:53?

I believe it.

 

[NotWorthy]

OOHHHHHh … Am I getting this right? … Russ equates from John 20:21-23 that forgiving sin means preaching the gospel and someone accepting it versus retaining sin which is someone not accepting the gospel?

Russ is THIS your interpretation of John 20:21-23?

michel

From what I gather, Russ believes that the Apostles are not “Initiating the act of Forgiveness”, but merely proclaiming it. And the same goes for renouncing someone for not accepting the Gospel, rather than declaring their sins still bind them.

Think of John 20 to read as this:
Those who accept the Gospel and believe, you can announce “Saved”. Those who disbelieve the Gospel, you can announce “Heathen”.

 

[guanophore]

Those who walked away were following Jesus for the wrong reason…

Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

A disciple is a “learner”. They did not want to lean of Jesus but were only interested in eating more free bread. Therefore, they were not disciples.

I agree, some of those who walked away were seeking Him only for the food, or possibly power (thought he would overthrow Rome).

If you wish to dispute whether they were disciples, though, then you will have to dispute with your Scriptures.

John 6:60-67

60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” …After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

Scipture testifies that they were His disciples.

 

[BereanRuss]

So, Russ…could you please tell me, in your own words, what you would tell your, say, 12 yr old son if he said, “Dad, what does it mean to retain someone’s sins after one receives the Holy Spirit? Why was Jesus telling his apostles to forgive men’s sins and retain men’s sins?”

I have answered this three or four times now. Forgiveness is always related to the preaching of the Gospel. When a person places their faith in Christ, their sin is forgiven but when a person rejects the message of the gospel, their sin remains.

…if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[NotWorthy]

I have answered this three or four times now. Forgiveness is always related to the preaching of the Gospel. When a person places their faith in Christ, their sin is forgiven but when a person rejects the message of the gospel, their sin remains.

…if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So you see, Russ. We have a disagreement here between you and Ralphy. It seems that Ralphy understood that the Apostles had the authority to forgive sins, but that authority died with them.

You seem to believe entirely different.

How do you know that **you **are right and Ralphy is wrong?

 

[BereanRuss]

You see John 20:20-23 as an “affirmation of the Forgiveness of God”. Jesus in no way words it that way. He places the forgiveness on the shoulders of the Apostles.

Does the believer have direct access to the throne of grace for the forgiveness of sin?

For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. [Heb 4:15, 16]

If the believer now has access to God’s throne of grace and is commanded to come boldly, why not take God at His word? Why go through an earthly priest when you have authority to boldly go to Jesus Himself?