Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[joe370]

** Originally Posted by fbl9 View Post
i have been a recipent of the sacrement of reconcillation many times and never once did the priest by himself forgive my sins.
The priest does not mediate between the Father and us but rather between Jesus and us.
**

Russ, is this a fair assessment, when it comes to confession, if one lived when the apostles lived?

Man/woman confesses his/her sins to one of the apostles, via the power of the H.S., who were sent into the world to forgive sins, just as Jesus was sent into the world by His Father, to forgive sins, Who then, breathed on the apostles, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.??? I really don’t expect an answer, because you never responded to my PM’s.

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Russ, you said:

**Why I am further away from God under the grace then I was under law?
**
I don’t think you are my fiend; you just choose to take your questions to a church that was not built by Christ circa 33 AD, or am I wrong? One more time: why do you believe in the rapture, to which your church teaches, when that word cannot be found anywhere in your bible???

 

[Randy_Carson]

Universal means -everywhere. Pretty simple to me. Born again christians ,like myself, are everywhere, they are part of the Body of Christ, those who are saved. These people will be caught up when the rapture occurs unless we are called home individually befor that time. Ralph

Ralphy-

Can you show us where the rapture was taught anywhere in any Church prior to its invention by Darby in 1830?

Cite sources, please. Thanks.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The incense that the Church offers is not burnt in the church by the priest. The incense that the church is to offer is the prayers of the saints…

Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. [Rev 5:8]

The elders have bowls full of our prayers?

Does this mean those in heaven can hear our prayers and that praying to them is okay, since the elders will offer them to God?

 

[joe370]

I don’t think you are my fiend; you just choose to take your questions to a church that was not built by Christ circa 33 AD, or am I wrong? One more time: why do you believe in the rapture, to which your church teaches, when that word cannot be found anywhere in your bible???

Just glanced at my last post…Oops, a typo…I meant friend, not fiend, my friend, as I am sure you figured out on your own; you certainly are NOT a fiend; your are a fervent brother in Christ, my FRIEND!!!

 

[Randy_Carson]

No problem. I’ll use Mary as the example, okay.

Mary as Mediatrix Proved From Scripture

The Catholic Church recognizes Mary’s role in salvation history and invokes her under the title of Mediatrix. However, many people struggle to understand how Mary can have this role which they reserve for Christ alone, and they cite the following verse in support of their position:

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Let’s look at additional verses to gain a fuller understanding of the role of Jesus as mediator.

Hebrews 7:24-25
because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Here we see that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for “those who come to God through him.” The role of the mediator and the intercessor are synonymous; a mediator lives to intercede for others.

All Christians are called to be mediators or intercessors for one another because we are all members of Christ’s body as we see from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:22-23
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Paul referred to himself as a co-laborer with Christ when he wrote:

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers.

Paul went further in his understanding of our responsibility as co-laborers with Christ when when he wrote:

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Is anything lacking from the perfect sacrifice that Christ offered upon the Cross? Paul clearly indicates that more is to be done and that he makes up what is “still lacking” in his own flesh.

2 Corinthians 1:6
If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation

Additionally, we know that we are called to share in the priesthood of all believers (cf. 1 Peter 2:5-9), and a priest, by definition, is called to be a mediator between God and men. Each of us is called to this role and to be a mediator or mediatrix for others before God.

Therefore, if we are all called to this role of mediator and intercessor for one another, how much more can this be said of Mary who said, “Yes” to God and brought Christ into the world?

Speaking of this, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus) of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. “In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.”

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

970"Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”

Russ-

I understand that you have a lot of posts that you need to address, but you missed this direct response to your request to prove from scripture that anyone other than Jesus is our mediator.

When you have a moment…thanks.

 

[joe370]

Russ and Ralph, if you choose to not answer my questions, could you at least respond to post 1052 by NotWorthy???

If they believed, shouldn’t we ALL believe, or were the duped by the Apostles, who in turn were duped by the H.S.

 

[joe370]

By ralphy…

Universal means -everywhere. Pretty simple to me. Born again christians ,like myself, are everywhere, they are part of the Body of Christ, those who are saved. These people will be caught up when the rapture occurs unless we are called home individually befor that time. Ralph

Ralph, universal also means, spanning all the ages, starting on Pentecost and ending when Jesus returns; all P.C.'s are offshoots of the C.C. which sprang up in the 16th century; I wouldn’t exactly call that universal; would you? If the teachers at your church and my sister’s church, who both teach 2 different things, vis-a-vis any one doctrine, are in fact teaching all that Jesus commanded, then the C.C. must have missed out on so much for the first 1500 years of Christianity, for your church didn’t exist to impart all that Jesus commanded?

If the C.C. was/is being guided in perpetuity, then why don’t you belong to that church? I mean, she can’t fail to teach all that Jesus commanded, if the Holy Spirit, sent to her on Pentecost, is still guiding her; can she??? If the church to which you belong, was born on Pentecost, rest assured, I would belong to your church, for I believe that nothing can steer Jesus’ One church off course; is that a fair assessment???

Born again Christians, like yourself, are everywhere, they are part of the Body of Christ, those who are saved, and the churches to which they belong, are all united and one when it comes to belief systems —**right or wrong, or does this oneness and unity even matter to you, like it did to Christ??? **

Ralph, only one church can be right when it comes to the fullness of faith…when it comes to all that Jesus taught, or can there be more than one truth vis-a-vis any one doctrine???

These people will be caught up when the rapture occurs unless we are called home individually befor that time.

The word priest, as applied to catholic ministers, as my church teaches, is not in the bible, so you reject the it; in turn, the word rapture, as applied to the end times, as your church teaches, is not in the bible, so shouldn’t you reject it???

 

[guanophore]

Then the priest in indeed a mediator between you and God

The priest, on behalf of the whole people, takes bread and as Jesus commanded, says the words that Jesus ordained, for all of us. He acts on God’s behalf to us, fulfilling Jesus’ command, and on our behalf to God, enacting obedience for us all.

In this way, he is grafted into the mediation of Christ, for he is taken up into the priestly act of Jesus, who offered Himself for us, as both victim, and priest.

for the very life you need comes only through the priest via the Eucharist.

No, Berean, this is false. Jesus said He would make Himself present to us in the Eucharist. He taught us that, if we did not eat, we would not have life in us. However, He is not confined to the Eucharist, and He is able to dispense life whereever, and however He wishes.

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus [1 Tim 2:5]

It is fortunate for us that Jesus is so generous with Himself, that He allows us to partake of HIs divine nature, and calls some to make themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven, just as He was.

If the Bible honestly said that, I would believe it as you do but the Bible say exactly yhe opposite:

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus [1 Tim 2:5]

No, Russ, only your understanding is “exactly the opposite”. Priests are consecrated entirly to God. They have died, and their life is hidden with Christ in God. It is no longer they who live, but Christ, who lives in them. This is why they are not separate “mediators”. They only mediate to the extent that Christ permits, according to His commandment. None of them can give their lives for us on the cross. But, He has commanded that, when they “do this, in rememberance” that there will be life in us.

THere is no earthly priest in this verse.

I agree. I am not sure why you keep inserting this word “earthly” or what you mean by it, but the priest has his thoughts where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. His ministry is spiritual, and he imparts spiritual things to the spiritual. If you believe it is “earthly”,then it makes more sense why you reject it.

Christ does not have an “earthly” priesthood either, and since they are caught up into Him, it makes sense that they would not, either.

I would go so far as to say that, had corrupt priests not fallen into “earthly” activities, there may have been no Reformation at all!

If Jesus is not a man of His word, how can He judge the world of being liars?

Russ, you are making the mistake of reasoning that God is bound by the commandments He gives to humans.

Jesus has kept His word. He promised to be with us till the end of the age, and the Eucharist is how He has chosen to do so.

The only reason that you believe that Jesus can say one thing and so another is because His words do not agree with your theology. So rather than change your beliefs, you accuse Jesus of not meaning what He says.

We believe that Jesus meant exactly what He said. We believe that the Bread and the Wine become, as He said “my body” and “my blood”. Not figurative, metaphorical or symbolic, because He gave His real flesh for the life of the world on the cross.

The fact that Jesus commands His disciples to do something does not necessarily mean that this commandment applies to everyone. Those who are not Christian have never been admitted to the Eucharist.

If Jesus’ plain words have no true meaning then who decides what He really meant?

This is an erroneous premise. Jesus plain words do have true meaning.

We understand this meaning in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught, that has been handed down to us, preserved intact by the Holy Spirit, just as He said.

When you change the definition of the word “church”, your theology becomes distorted.

This is absolutely true! Beginning with the very first heresies, and becoming rampant at the time of the Reformation, the definition of the Church has been warped by the disobedient. Church in the time of the Apostles was Jesus, as the Head, the HS, as the Soul, and the innumerable saints who have gone on before us, as well as the church militant (believers still here on earth working out their salvation).

Those who have departed from the Apostolic faith deny the necessity to be in union with the successors of the Apostles. This has caused theology to become distorted, more and more with each generation that departs from the one before it.

 The “church” are those who are born of the Spirit.  Unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.  You cannot be born again by the will of any man through baptism, you can only be born into His kingdom by His will.

You are right that those who are born of the Spirit are part of the Church. However, this is a very deficient view of the Church by itself.

You are also right that no on e is born through the “will of man” in baptism. When we are born again of water and the Spirit, we are born by His will, not ours. This is why it is said that we “submit” to baptism. We give ourselves into the waters that regenerate. This is one reason it is called “circumcision without hands”, as it is accomplished by the HS.

John 1:12-13
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This verse is a reference to the baptized,those who have been born from above by water,and spirit. Those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[guanophore]

The ministry of reconciliation is related to the preaching of the gospel.

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. [2 Cor 5:18,19]

I do agree that it is related to the preaching of the gospel. But, just as Jesus’ ministry had many aspects, this is only one of them. Another is that He commanded that we "do this (Eucharist) in memory of HIm, and this is part of reconciliation too.

Then it is impossible to be reconciled to God without the Priest? Yikes, Joe, that sure condemns a lot of Christians.

No, Russ, the only thing being condemned here is your concrete thinking. God is not bound by the commands He gives to us. The fact that He has committed the ministry of reconciliation to men, and given men the power to remit sins, does not mean He has given up these things in Himself.

Catholics don’t condemn other Christians. That is up to God. If a Christian refuses to follow His commandments, we will notice that, but it is up to God to judge. We always hope and pray that it is a result of invincible ignorance, instead of rebellion.

Has anybody on this thread made that claim?

Russ has made it repeatedly in various forms. It is part of his method to debunk the validity of the priesthood. Since he knows that God does reconcile non-Catholics to Himself, He thinks if he can “prove” that we believe this can’t be done, then it will invalidate what the Church teaches, or at least, this is how it seems.

A priest is a mediator between God and man. In the NT there is only ONE mediator between God and man – Jesus.

Only Jesus can mediate our eternal life. However, He has generously allowed that we participate in His ministry of reconciliation with the world. We are a kingdom of priests, this is about us being Christ to the world.

You say that the “function of (a mediator between God and man) can be clearly identified in the bible”. Please show me this from the NT.

Your bait and switch is not going to work, Russ. What he said was that the function of the presbyter is clear in scripture. The presbyter does not mediate our eternal salvation. Only Jesus can do that, by His blood. Nowhere in the NT is it written that any presbyter should give his blood for the life of the world. Sorry, you are misunderstanding.

Please show me the other “mediators between God and man” in the NT. If there is more than one, they should be easy to find.

No, Russ. Only you have this thought in your head. Catholics don’t believe that anyone else has the ability to purchase our eternal freedom on the cross. This is not the function of a Catholic priest. The priest is to bring God’s graces to the church and to the world. He is a participant in the ministry of reconciliation. He does not mediate our eternal life.

If this were true you could confess your sin to anyone in the church, not just the priest. You require the priest to mediate for you to the Father.

Indeed, you can confess your sins to anyone, in the church, or out of it! In fact, modern psychotherapy is a good example of confession to “anyone”.

We prefer to confess to the person who has been authorized by God to forgive the sins.

No, we do not require the priest to mediate for us to the father. This is the means that Jesus set up for us as a channel of His grace. His grace is not restricted to this channel,but He has promised that, when we access this channel, the grace will be present.

That is your definition, not mine.

Personally, I agree with you on this point. I think intercession is a much more appropriate word for the activity of praying for others.

The priest stands between you and God to present the sacrifice to God on you behalf. If this were not true then anyone could say mass, not just the priest.

No, Russ, the priest does not “stand between”. He is not some kind of a blockage or obtacle. He acts on behalf of the congregation to bring our petitions to God, and on behalf of God to bring His promises to us. This is how God set it up.

If this were not true then anyone could say mass, not just the priest.

Other people do say the Mass. It is just not valid.

Joe did.

No, Russ, Joe did not make the claim you are accusing. It may be that you understand it this way, but this is not what the Apostles believed and taught. It is not what the Catholic Church teaches. It is only a fabrication of your mind.

Then it is impossible to be reconciled to God without the Priest? Yikes, Joe, that sure condemns a lot of Christians.

It is clear that the two statements do not say the same thing. No one here, except you, has claimed that Catholics believe it is “impossible to be reconciled to God without the priest”. You have made this claim in several forms on this thread. It is false.

If you need to cling to this false belief so you can justify your disobedience to Christ’s command, I understand.

 

[fbl9]

So, in the OT it would look like this…

God
Priest
Man

and in the NT it looks like this…

God
Jesus
Priest
Man

Why I am further away from God under the grace then I was under law?

lol according to you Jesus is not God nor the source of grace.

 

[NotWorthy]

Just glanced at my last post…Oops, a typo…I meant friend, not fiend, my friend, as I am sure you figured out on your own; you certainly are NOT a fiend; your are a fervent brother in Christ, my FRIEND!!!

Nope! Too Late! The cat’s out of the bag! The leopard finally showed his spots!

You know, for 15 minutes you can still edit a post. The “Edit” button will stay there for about 15 minutes. Make your changes and press “Save”

 

[guanophore]

Mathew 16:18-19 has nothing to do with the religious leaders at the time of Jesus and John the Baptist but these verses do….

Then He went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in it, saying to them, "It is written, ‘My house is a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’ "And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him, and were unable to do anything; for all the people were very attentive to hear Him. [Luke 19:45]

Do you think that those who wanted to destroy Jesus would allow Him to lawfully teach?

If John was licensed to preach by the Jewish leaders why did he say….?

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [Mat 3:7]

The same was true at the time of Peter…

Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them, being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. [Acts 4:1…]

Is this your way of conceding that yes, Jesus did appoint episkopos, presbyteros and diakonos, but that it is no longer necessary for you to be in unity with them, because they have gone astray?

You cannot receive forgiveness of sin apart from confession to a priest.

This is a falsehood, as you have been told repeatedly. Why do you cling to it? Do you not realize who is the father of lies?

The priesthood (priests, bishops, etc.) do indeed mediate for the sinner for there is no forgiveness apart from regular confession.

You are clinging to falsehoods, Russ. What you are claiming here is not the Teaching of the Apostles, nor of the Catholic Church. What are you trying to accomplish?

…it is impossible for God to lie… [Heb 6:18]

This is true. But, you are not God.

Hi, All…

I haven’t been able to keep up with the thread.

Could someone tell me if Russ/Ralphy every answered NotWorthy’s pointed question, which has been asked at least 3 times:

**How do you read John 6:53 in anyway BUT literal?

In ancient Israel, according to the Psalms, to “eat someone’s flesh”, in a figurative way, was to “loathe and revile” someone.

How can you possibly take John 6:53 figuratively, understanding this? Couldn’t this be the very reason the ancient Jews had so much trouble accepting this hard teaching. **

No. There was just a compliant that Scripture could not be understood without Gk. and Aramiac. I don’t think that the original meaning of the languages are of much concern here. It is more important to “prove” that the Catholic Church is wrong.

The incense that the Church offers is not burnt in the church by the priest. The incense that the church is to offer is the prayers of the saints…

Well, both things are true. The priest lights the incense as a sign, and offers prayers on behalf of all of us. He presides over the congregation. Incense is never burned unless there are prayers being made.

…and the preaching of the Gospel…

To the one we are the aroma of death [leading] to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things? [2 Cor 2:16]

What does this have to do with the topic?

…and love…
And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
… and giving…

Indeed I have all and abound. I am full, having received from Epaphroditus the things sent from you, a sweet-smelling aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well pleasing to God.

These are good examples of what the incense symbolizes.

 

[guanophore]

God gives good gifts to all His children but all stand shoulder to shoulder at the foot of the cross.

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. [Rom 12:6-8]

We are all equal in dignity, but not in function. There are greater and lesser gifts, and those who are worthy of more honor than others.

So, in the OT it would look like this…

God
Priest
Man

and in the NT it looks like this…

God
Jesus
Priest
Man

Why I am further away from God under the grace then I was under law?

I think it is because you perceive the ministry of reconciliation as some sort of blockage or obstacle, instead of a facilitative gift, intended to bring you closer to God.

 

[guanophore]

When I asked you or someone else here why the Spirit fell on the house of Cornelius while Peter was still speaking you said that it was an unusual situation and that God was reassuring Peter that indeed the Gentiles could be saved.

This is the same situation. Here, God was proclaiming that the Gospel is not only for the Jew and for the gentile but also for a third region that was especially detested by the orthodox Jews, the region of the Samaritans. The Samaritans were pagans who had adopted the Jewish religion of the OT.

Jesus said to Peter, “And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." [Mat 16:19]

Peter literally fulfilled this when he opened three doors in three specific areas:

For the Jews on Pentecost
For the gentiles in the house of Cornelius
For the half Jews - the Samaritans in Samaria.

This explains why God delayed the giving of His Spirit on this occasion.

This is very Catholic of you to say!

I think, though, that you devalue the authority of the Apostles.

 

[guanophore]

I am not as familiar as you are of the CCC. Please post the sections pertaining to the sacrament of reconciliation and we can look at together.

I am very proud of you, Russ. I was not sure you were interested in learning what the Catholic Church really taught and believed, but you have proved me wrong.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve posted this roughly 15 times in this thread. Ralph attempted to answer it (but didn’t). I’m not sure, but I don’t think BereanRuss has even acknowledged the question.

Ah. They are keeping silent. Like the Pharisees in Mark 3, perhaps?

 

[guanophore]

God gives good gifts to all His children but all stand shoulder to shoulder at the foot of the cross.

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. [Rom 12:6-8]

We are all equal in dignity, but not in function. There are greater and lesser gifts, and those who are worthy of more honor than others.

 

[NotWorthy]

Ah. They are keeping silent. Like the Pharisees in Mark 3, perhaps?

No, they’ve been busy with an overwhelming amount of posts. Let’s give our brothers the benefit of the doubt.

 

[guanophore]

Why are you saying that Jesus places us further from God. That’s a bizarre thought. Putting Jesus in the mix brings us closer to God, not further away.

This is a reflection of his conception that a “mediator” is some sort of blockage, impediment, or “layer” that divides, instead of uniting.

 

[PRmerger]

No, they’ve been busy with an overwhelming amount of posts. Let’s give our brothers the benefit of the doubt.

Indeed. Russ has rolled up his sleeves and tackled the thread–no one could accuse him of being a slacker.

Yet, his silence on this question is deafening, eh?