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BereanRuss
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This is what I remember to be true. I spent 20 years in the CC but I am not perfect. Someone here said that they are 28 years in the CC and said they were only scratching the surface.
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BereanRuss
Guest
I could not find a better example of a mediator then you just described for us!
When you are with the priest you hear Jesus but when you are not with him you do not hear Jesus. The priest is necessary for you to hear the Lord therefore the priest IS a mediator in EVRY sense.
The problem is that the roll that the priest is playing in your relationship with God is reserved only for CHRIST himself. He alone is the mediator between God and man.
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BereanRuss
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You cannot be forgiven in the CC without the mediation of the priest. If can be completely forgiven there is no need for the sacrament of reconciliation.
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NotWorthy
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Hmmm…
But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men. It seems that authority to forgive sins has been given to men (plural). John 20:20-23 would seem to support this. James 5:23 also supports this.
I’m really not sure where you are coming from Berean Russ.
The authority to forgive our sins is one of the greatest gifts that Christ left with his Church… and you willingly walked away from it.
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BereanRuss
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If you believed this verse you would have not problem with protestantism:
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
God does not fit conveniently in your Catholic box.
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NotWorthy
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I would cease quoting the Catholic Teaching of the Church if I was knowingly quoting it incorrectly. You’ve been told. You continue to mis-quote.
One could maintain that this is dishonest.
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NotWorthy
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Where does your church have “ordained leaders”? Where did your church receive the authority to “ordain leaders”. It would seem its a tradition of men in your church.
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BereanRuss
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Joe, why do you always break the thread when you post so that none can follow the conversation?
No Joe, those words are your interpretation of the Bible.
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BereanRuss
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No, I do not go to my pastor to receive forgiveness from God. He does not stand BETWEEN me and God, we both stand side by side at the foot of the cross.
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NotWorthy
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What do you mean by this? Are you viewing the thread in linear form? I find it easier to follow this thread if I view in Linear form.
No, Joe is echoing the teaching of the Church, beginning with the 1st century. As proof of this understanding of Sacred Tradition, you may want to study St. Clement’s Epistle to Corinth.
St. Clement chastised the Corinthians for removing the Apostolically appointed priests and bishops and replacing them with priests and a bishop that the people preferred (maybe they were popular because they were “preaching to the choir”, but that’s irrelevant). After reading St. Clement, the bishop of Rome’s, Epistle the Corinthians re-instated the Apostolically appointed priests and bishop and fell back in line with the Church.
This Apostolic Succession among the priesthood resulted from the NT Epistles and Acts that describe the “laying on of hands” of those that are appointed to be leaders in the Church. The “laying on of hands” was also conferred on the faithful after baptism where they were sealed with the Holy Spirit - what Catholics call Confirmation - but that was a different act from the “laying on of hands” that accompanied ordination.
Today, every Catholic priest and bishop can know that there is a succession of ordinations that began with Jesus and the Apostles.
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BereanRuss
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The word rapture is from the Latin word rapturus and it means, “caught up”
Then we who are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [1 Thes 4:17]
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BereanRuss
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If you can find Godly examples of people praying to someone other then God in the Bible, show me.
Paul could have prayed to Abraham. Peter could have prayed to David. Jesus to Samuel - but there is not ONE example of anyone ever praying to anyone other than God in the entire Bible.
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Randy_Carson
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Most people who hold dispensational beliefs assume they are based in the Bible and have ancient roots. But dispensationalism has been around less than 200 years. The father of dispensationalism is John Nelson Darby, a Protestant Irish lawyer who left his successful practice to become an Anglican priest. Born in 1800, Darby was a contemporary of John Henry Newman, the famous leader of the Anglican Oxford movement in the 1830s. But while Newman would later become a Catholic priest and eventually a cardinal, Darby’s studies of Scripture-coupled with a disenchantment with mainstream Christian churches-led him to develop the idea of a “true church” and the apostasy of the established churches, especially the Catholic Church. He believed this true church was spiritual in character and should have no involvement in earthly affairs. He wrote that “the church is properly heavenly, in its calling and relationship with Christ, forming no part of the course of events on earth. . . . Our calling is on high. Events are on earth” (quoted by Harold Bloom in The American Religion, 22).
In 1827 Darby left the Anglican priesthood and by 1831 was among the leaders of the Plymouth Brethren, a non-denominational movement which denounced mainline Christianity. He began to teach that the true church would need to be removed from the earth in order to make way for the completion of God’s dealings with the Jews. He named this secret removal of the church the Rapture. This belief was something completely new in Christianity. No previous Christian, neither Catholic nor Protestant, had ever proposed or taught such a thing.
taken from:
Waiting to Be Raptured - Dispensationalist Thought in America
By Carl El. Olson
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9904fea1.asp**
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BereanRuss
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You are missing a HUGE point here. The reason that Jesus can mediate is because of the PERFECT SACRIFICE that he offered.
Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. [Heb 9:12]
The reason that you and I cannot be a mediator is because we do not have an acceptable sacrifice to offer God. Jesus ALONE is able to mediate between God and man because His sacrifice alone is accepted by the Father.
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Randy_Carson
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Your premise is flawed.
Answering the Question, “Where is that in the Bible?”
The Evangelical starts with the assumption that scripture existed first and that tradition was slowly and incrementally added to it as time progressed. However, the original deposit of faith was given to the Apostles years before Scripture was ever penned. The Church was founded on this truth from Christ. Some of this deposit was then written in Scripture, some was scrupulously passed from bishop to bishop as oral tradition, and some was later clarified as dogma by the agreement of the bishops in the councils of the Church.
These sources, of course, should be expected not to contradict each other. If the Church teaches something as true, it is justifiable to check that it is not contradicted by Scripture. But if the Church teaches something and the Bible is silent or ambiguous, that does not mean the teaching is any less truly a part of the original deposit of faith given the Apostles. The focus must shift from what is biblical to what is true. The first is always contained in the second, but all of the second is not necessarily contained in the first.
When an Evangelical asks, “Where is that doctrine in the Bible?”, the correct response is “First show me from Scripture why you believe all Christian doctrines must be in the Bible.” It can be frustrating for Evangelicals to confront this issue, but it is important for them to understand the lack of biblical basis for their question. Truth is at issue here.
Adapted from Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David B. Currie, pp.61-62.
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BereanRuss
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Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.” [Luke 9:49…]
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PRmerger
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I understand, Russ. Perhaps, rather than sounding so authoritative, you could have prefaced your statement with, “After spending 20 years in the CC, this is what I remember: You cannot receive forgiveness of sin apart from confession to a priest.”
Did you know that the CC teaches that through the Sacrament of Baptism* all *sins are forgiven?
Did you know that the CC teaches that any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize?
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Randy_Carson
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Amen!
But there will not be a "rapture’ as you have been led to believe. Jesus is only coming back once - at the end of the age. There will not be an intermediary return when Christians are whisked away while others are “left behind.”
This is a theological novelty invented by Darby in the early 1800’s and unknown to Christians - Catholic or Protestant - prior to that time.
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Randy_Carson
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Are all theological truths contained explicitly in scripture? Is there a verse that specifically forbids the baptism of infants (“Thou shalt not…”)? Is there a verse that tells you that God is three persons who share a single nature? Is there a verse that tells you that Jesus is one person with two natures?
Perhaps we are expected to use the intellect that God has given us, yes?
Praying to Saints and the Communion of Saints Proved from Scripture
1. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ
“Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” (Romans 12:4-5)
“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)
And we are joined with Christ through baptism
“having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)
“We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4)
“for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” (Galatians 3:27)
2. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ
“If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.”(1 Corinthians 12:26)
“If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you” (2 Corinthians 2:5)
3. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ
“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)
4. There is only one Body of Christ in Heaven and on Earth
“by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:15-16)
“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-5)
5. The Church is the Body of Christ
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)
“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy” (Colossians 1:18)
6. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another because we are all connected in Christ
“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)
7. If you can ask a member of the Body of Christ on earth to pray for you, then you can also ask someone who is a member of that same Body of Christ in heaven to do the same for they are not “dead” at all.
“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (Luke 20:38)
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PRmerger
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What about Jesus praying to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?
Perhaps, since you have no liturgy and no Mass, your definition of prayer is limited to “praise and worship”. We Catholics reserve our praise and worship to the Lord God alone, but prayer can also mean conversation, beseeching, asking for intercession.
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