Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[BereanRuss]

Nobody - certainly not the Catholic Church - has ever said that Jews or Muslims can be saved outside of the Catholic faith, nor without receiving Holy Communion.

Baptized Christians are all in one way or another part of the Catholic Church or Body of Christ. Some are in an imperfect communion with the Church…

If the Christian can be saved without communion in the CC then are the words of Jesus are not literal.

 

[BereanRuss]

it has taught what IS required for salvation and it has always said that there is no salvation outside of the Church.

Please define who is inside and who is outside the church. If a Christian never receives communion in the CC and never desires to, are they in or out?

 

[BereanRuss]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

 

[BereanRuss]

1. This priesthood is identical with the office of elder…

No, it is not. Why do Catholics keep perpetuating the same lies? There is no priest in the NT church.

 

[BereanRuss]

To what traditions of Israel are you referring? If God commanded the Israelites to do something, are you claiming they were wrong to follow these commands?

I am referring to the same traditions that Jesus was:

He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.” [Mark 7:9]

It is intellectually and spiritually honest of you to affirm that every single time you quote Scripture, you affirm the Truth and Infalliblity of the Holy Catholic Church.

God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. [Gal 6:14]

 

[PRmerger]

I am referring to the same traditions that Jesus was:

He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.” [Mark 7:9]

Can you be more specific, Russ? What traditions?

God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. [Gal 6:14]

Again, you should be thankful that it is the Holy Catholic Church which told you this is the Word of God.

 

[cazayoux]

Please define who is inside and who is outside the church. If a Christian never receives communion in the CC and never desires to, are they in or out?

They are in ONLY if they are ‘invincibly ignorant of the truth’.
If they learn the truth and reject it, they are out.

With knowledge, comes responsibility.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

To ‘follow’ Him is to listen to ALL that He taught and to be a part of the church He established (His body).
To reject that church, is to reject Jesus.

It is the church that Jesus founded that is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

michel

 

[BereanRuss]

Keeping the Passover was not separated from the sacrifice of the lamb. In like manner, keeping the Eucharist is not separated from the sacrifice of The Lamb.

Keeping the Passover did not make their deliverance from Egypt more sure. It did not “re-present” their deliverance. It only remembers their deliverance. Their deliverance was a ONE TIME event that can never be duplicated. The Sacrifice if Christ is the same:

with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. [Heb 9:12]

The sacrifice if Jesus is a one time event. To add to His perfect sacrifice is to deny His work of salvation on the cross but this is exactly what the priest does. Every mass the priest prays, “may the Lord accept our sacrifice… the work of human hands…” – He will not. He will only accept the perfect offering of His Son.

 

[cazayoux]

No, it is not. Why do Catholics keep perpetuating the same lies? There is no priest in the NT church.

huh?

There is a change in priesthood, not an abolition of it.
I read it in Hebrews 7 this morning.
Jesus is now the high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
No longer is a priest given that function by birth like in the O.T with Aaron’s and Levi’s descendants.

Is Jesus the only priest or the high priest?

Rom 15:15-16
[15] But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God
[16] to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Pet 2:4-5
[4] Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God’s sight chosen and precious;
[5] and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 2:9
[9] But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Rev 1:5-6
[5] and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
[6] and made us a kingdom, **priests **to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10
[10] and hast made them a kingdom and **priests **to our God, and they shall reign on earth."

Rev 20:6
[6] Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be **priests **of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

To say there is no priesthood in the new testament is to ignore scripture.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Keeping the Passover did not make their deliverance from Egypt more sure. It did not “re-present” their deliverance. It only remembers their deliverance. Their deliverance was a ONE TIME event that can never be duplicated. The Sacrifice if Christ is the same:

with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. [Heb 9:12]

The sacrifice if Jesus is a one time event. To add to His perfect sacrifice is to deny His work of salvation on the cross but this is exactly what the priest does. Every mass the priest prays, “may the Lord accept our sacrifice… the work of human hands…” – He will not. He will only accept the perfect offering of His Son.

You misunderstand.
We are not re-sacrificing Jesus in the mass.
We believe we are participating in that ONE sacrifice with Jesus who is outside of time.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

I am referring to the same traditions that Jesus was:

He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.” [Mark 7:9]

Jesus was referring to Jews that would use tithing (but still have access to the money) to keep from taking care of their parents, which broke the commandment to honor they mother and father.

All tradition is not condemned here.
What is condemned is traditions of men that negate the Word of God.

Wednesday night bible study is a tradition of men.
It does not negate the Word of God so is good.

Sola scriptura is a tradition of men (starting about 500 years ago).
It is a tradition of men that negate the Word of God, and is therefore not good.

michel

 

[BereanRuss]

If in fact the E.O.C. and the C.C. added the priesthood…added something that Jesus did not intend, then those 2 churches are apostate churches, and if that’s the case then the Holy Spirit failed to “teach” and “guide” Jesus’ One church into ALL truth, for the first 300 years, and if that’s the case, then perhaps Jesus’ One church added something heretical to the Holy Bible that Jesus did not intend, making it an errant and untrustworthy collection of books; Is that a possibility?

God is not dependant upon man in any way. He is not dependant upon an infallible church in order for His word to be infallible. To think that God is dependant upon the faithfulness of man is to make the same mistake that the Jews made at the time of Christ.

God does not promise that error will not enter His church. In fact, He predicts that it will:

The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened." (Leaven in the Bible is a type for sin.)

…but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches. (In the Bible birds are a type for satan and evil.)

The problem here is the difination of the “church”. The church is not a human organization. It is a group of people selected by God and filled with His spirit.

My sheep hear my voice…

Neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem… but those who worship God must worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

The “Church” is a SPIRITUAL group, not a physical organization.

 

[cazayoux]

The “Church” is a SPIRITUAL group, not a physical organization.

I absolutely agree that it is a spiritual group, but it must also be a physical organization.
If we have an issue with someone we are to go to them.
If they do not listen, bring two or three more as witnesses.
What is the final authority after this?
We bring them to the CHURCH.
Scripture says it is the CHURCH that is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

If my wife wants an abortion and I don’t agree.
I’ll bring two or three others to witness to her, but she doesn’t listen.
Then I need to bring her to the CHURCH.
Which CHURCH?
If I look in the phone book which do I choose?

There ARE Christian churches out there that think abortion is okay.
How do I KNOW which church has the TRUTH?

The church Jesus founded MUST BE A VISIBLE, AUTHORITATIVE (authority given by Jesus) church so that I can FIND it and GO TO IT.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

God is not dependant upon man in any way. He is not dependant upon an infallible church in order for His word to be infallible. To think that God is dependant upon the faithfulness of man is to make the same mistake that the Jews made at the time of Christ.

We don’t think God needs a church either.
He gave US the church.
WE need the church so that WE know what is truth.

michel

 

[PRmerger]

God does not promise that error will not enter His church. In fact, He predicts that it will.

Indeed. And the 40,000+ denominations that have formed based on their differing interpretations of Scripture give testament to the truth of Christ’s prediction. They have deviated from Christ’s teachings given to the CC, and error has indeed become their truth.

 

[BereanRuss]

WE need the church so that WE know what is truth.

Michel,

The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever. {Ps 119:160]

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. [John 17:17]

 

[BereanRuss]

Indeed. And the 40,000+ denominations that have formed based on their differing interpretations of Scripture give testament to the truth of Christ’s prediction. They have deviated from Christ’s teachings given to the CC, and error has indeed become their truth.

If you read what Jesus says carefully, you will notice that the error comes into the church early, at the seed stage, not later.

The error becomes evident latter in that it does not produce “fruit”.

 

[BereanRuss]

I absolutely agree that it is a spiritual group, but it must also be a physical organization.
If we have an issue with someone we are to go to them.
If they do not listen, bring two or three more as witnesses.
What is the final authority after this?
We bring them to the CHURCH.
Scripture says it is the CHURCH that is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Michel

The church is made up of believers in Jesus Christ who have been born again of His Spirit. Where those who are born of the Spirit are gathered, there is the church.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. [Rom 8:9]

 

[BereanRuss]

You misunderstand.
We are not re-sacrificing Jesus in the mass.
We believe we are participating in that ONE sacrifice with Jesus who is outside of time.

Why then the words of the priest, "may the Lord accept our sacrifice… the work of human hands…”? Do the words of the mass have no meaning? If the priest does not see this as a sacrifice, why use the word sacrifice?