Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[BereanRuss]

This is false…

Praise God! Glad to hear it!

So you are saying that the priest is not necessary to receive absolution from sin and you are saying that the priest is not necessary to transform the bread and wine?

Praise God!

 

[mikeledes]

Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

This does not answer my question. Why is it that the Spirit was not conferred through Philip’s hands, but was conferred through the Apostle’s hands? Remember, it was through Philip’s preaching that the Christians in question came to believe. Why did they have to wait for the Apostles? Why didn’t Philip do it himself, have just any Christian do it, or God just do it directly?

And why is it that James tells Christians to call the elders of the church if they are sick so that they can pray over them, be anointed with oil, and be healed and have* their sins forgiven*. Why didn’t he just say call any believer or just pray directly to God?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Philip was a Deacon of the Catholic Church; not just some random passerby.

Unfortuntately, what he said had nothing to do with my question.

God bless,
Michael

 

[cazayoux]

This does not answer my question. Why is it that the Spirit was not conferred through Philip’s hands, but was conferred through the Apostle’s hands? Remember, it was through Philip’s preaching that the Christians in question came to believe. Why did they have to wait for the Apostles? Why didn’t Philip do it himself, have just any Christian do it, or God just do it directly?

And why is it that James tells Christians to call the elders of the church if they are sick so that they can pray over them, be anointed with oil, and be healed and have* their sins forgiven*. Why didn’t he just say call any believer or just pray directly to God?

God Bless,
Michael

awww … GREAT questions Michael. This is the crux of it, isn’t it?

michel

 

[ralphy]

Here you are wrong. The Catholic Church teaches that the sacraments are the normative means by which God confers His grace. God can also work outside of the sacraments.

God Bless,
Michael

You know what, I get tired of the statement “the catholic church teaches”. You are absolutely wrong in this statement. The “ROMAN catholic church teaches” is the correct statement you should be making, as that is who you are refering to. The “catholic church” are those who are saved and belong to the body of Christ, of which I belong, this is the universal church of God. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Jesus left us a church, which is the pillar and protector of the truth.
He left us a church so that we can KNOW the truth.

But if I look in the phone book, how do I choose which church has the truth regarding the understanding of a particular passage.
If I pick ‘this’ one, it’s pastor will have a different understanding of that passage than ‘that’ one’s pastor.

How do I know which church in the phone book is the one that scripture says is the pillar and protector of the truth?

michel

And that church is. Ralph

 

[jmcrae]

And that church is. Ralph

I am sure you did not intend that to come out how it looks. The Church is Ralph?

Jesus founded only one Church.

When you look in the phone book, there are dozens of churches - Mormon (founded by Joseph Smith), Jehovah’s Witnesses (founded by Charles Russell), Seventh Day Adventists (founded by Ellen White), various different kinds of Baptists (founded by John Smyth), various different kinds of Lutherans (founded by Martin Luther), Presbyterian (founded by John Knox), Anglican (founded by Henry VIII), Methodist (founded by John and Charles Wesley), Catholic (founded by Jesus of Nazareth), etc.

Which one of these, is the one that Christ founded?

 

[Always_For_Him]

You know what, I get tired of the statement “the catholic church teaches”. You are absolutely wrong in this statement. The “ROMAN catholic church teaches” is the correct statement you should be making, as that is who you are refering to. The “catholic church” are those who are saved and belong to the body of Christ, of which I belong, this is the universal church of God. Ralph

Ralph, you have been told many times that the Church is the Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman rite is one of 23 rites of the Catholic Church. Every Church that the Apostles founded in the different areas makes up the 23 rites. Christ’s Church is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. The term “Roman” was initially a derogatory term given to the western rite of the Church. It was not appreciated at the time, but as time went on, it stuck and started symbolizing something good. The Church is not Roman. The Roman rite of the Catholic Church is the right way to discuss the Roman rite.

 

[cazayoux]

And that church is. Ralph

I guess we should look at scripture to get description of it, then find out which church in existence today ‘fits the bill’.

We know it was only ONE church.

Matt 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

‘church’ not ‘churches’

Acts 4:32 Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common.

‘one’ heart, ‘one’ soul.

1 Cor 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that **all of you agree **and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

‘agree’ … ‘united in the same mind’

Where can we find a church, founded by Jesus 2000 years ago, with this oneness and unity in its teaching.

Jesus established a visible church

John 17:20-23 that the world may know … that they may see

If it was an invisible church, how would we go to it to resolve issues? It had to be a church that we could go to to KNOW the truth.

Jesus established an authoritative church

John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
John 18:37 Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice.”
John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

The truth seems to be a very important thing.
We need to KNOW the truth. Where do we find it?

1 Tim 3:15 the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Matt 18:15-17 if he refuses to listen to them, take it to the church.
Eph 1:22-23 the church, which is his body
Eph 5:23 Christ is the head of the church, he himself the savior of the body

Remember that the bible has authority BECAUSE the church has authority. It was His church that wrote the scriptures.

THAT authority is apostolic

It’s in the creed … We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.

Matt 28-18-19 “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to” Jesus
John 20:21 “As the Father has sent me, so I send you”
Luke 10:16 he who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me

But this was when Jesus was alive … what assurance do we have that this is still true? … that the apostles still had authority after Jesus was in heaven?

John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. but you know it, because it remains with you and will be in you.

The apostles received the spirit of truth … .the Holy Spirit

John 14:26 The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name - He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.
John 16:13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.

So the apostles were able to teach without error, with the charism (gift) of infallibility.

So how do we find this church that Jesus established that is…

• one (unity of teaching)
• authoritative
• visible
• apostolic

Wouldn’t this church that Jesus established that is one, authoritative, visible, and apostlic at least claim that they were this church?
Which church in the phone book would you say fits this scriptural description of the church Jesus founded?

michel

 

[BereanRuss]

And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

The verse does not say that the Spirit was only given by the apostles hands but that, “Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles hands…”.

The Holy Spirit is given to all believers upon salvation…

This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul says nothing about the laying on hands or baptism but, “by the hearing of faith”.

 

[joe370]

**

I cannot account for all these churches. I do know however, that it is only the word of God that is infallible, and salvation by the Word of God is the only way to be saved, and not by any other method or teaching of any church regardless of it’s origin or denomination. Ralph

**

Ralph, my sister would agree with you, yet she still goes to her church built circa 1987, for guidance, erudition and spiritual enlightenment.

I’ll ask you the same question I asked her: why do you even go to church, to which Jesus built, 2000 years ago, and charged fallible, sinful men to teach ALL that He commanded --in perpetuity?

Why don’t you just stay home and read your bible and interpret it infallibly, thanks to the Holy Spirit, Who is guiding every individual, such as yourself and my sister, since the P.R., to do the same, which has of course, led to unity or division?

Ralph, how did we get an infallible Bible from a very fallible church?

I thought Jesus was/is the Savior of His church, as per sacred scripture, or is He the Savior of people who simply read their Bibles? If that’s the case, then without doubt, many many people, for the first 300 years of Christianity have not been saved, for the codified/canonized bible absolutely did not exist until circa 393 AD; if you could travel back in time to say, 275 AD, and ask someone for the king James bible, any version for that matter, you would be out of luck my friend; people relied on Jesus’ one church, the C.C., for guidance, erudition and spiritual enlightenment, which was born when:

…suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them. And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim. Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem…

Pentecost did not take place in the 16th century, and I cannot believe for one second that the H.S. would leave Jesus’ established church, to guide another church, which has endlessly led to more and more isolated churches, into utter division and chaos. Jesus gave us one church, NOT the one bible, with specific church leaders to spearhead, guide and teach all that Jesus commanded, in perpetuity:

…you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." When he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him from their sight.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Jesus’ church is a teaching Institution, instructed to teach all that God commanded; only a handful of people were assembled in the house when the Holy Spirit suddenly came from the sky…when a noise like a strong driving wind appeared, and it filled the entire house…when they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.

Ralph, did the H.S. descend upon the devout Jews from every nation that gathered in Jerusalem in Acts 2?

To become a valid teach/minister/presbyter/bishop/prophet/pastor/deacon of Jesus’ one church, for the 1st 1500 years of Christianity, one had to go through a rigorous training program, and only then, via the imposition of the hands, could one become a qualified, ordained minister, guided by the Holy Spirit, as Christ’s Body of teachers, working collectively, as the Apostles did, infallibly teaching and interpreting sacred scripture through no power of their own; they received said power when the Holy Spirit came upon the bride of Christ, and she was/is to be Jesus’ faithful witnesses starting in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth, and this process was/is very effective at maintaining oneness and unity, steering clear of division and dissension. Once the P.R. ensued, everything, outside Jesus’ One church, fell apart, almost immediately, at a torridly rapid pace.

Immediately new protestant churches started popping up, and those churches, in the eyes of many, failed just as the C.C. reputedly failed, ergo the need for new churches, which of course failed as well, necessitating the need for more and more churches, and this process, has been snowballing for about 500 years into all of the chaos and confusion that we now see in this hopelessly fractured protestant monolith, only this rock possesses zero uniformity and oneness and an inflexible and recalcitrant character when it comes to any teaching church (especially the C.C.) --other than the church to which each protestant belongs --which of course is the true church, otherwise they wouldn’t belong to it --being guided by the Holy Spirit to infallibly interpret sacred scripture --their only source of divine authority/revelation, which of course has led to the endless fracture in Jesus’ Mystical Body, and my conversion from one of the many many P.C.'s to the One C.C., built 2000 years ago!

Perhaps one day someone will finally get it right…will finally do what Christ evidently could not do 2000 years ago: build a church which will never be vanquished by the gates of hell, thanks to the Divine guidance of the One Holy Spirit.

Ralph, did Jesus’ one C.C. lose her power to teach infallibly vis-a-vis all that Jesus commanded, once she infallibly codified and canonized the inerrant bible, in the latter part of the 4th century?

 

[joe370]

Ralph, you said:

And how do you go about understanding that the scripture you are quoting is correct?

We take it to the church, if we are having a problem understanding sacred scripture; that’s what they did 2000 years ago, if they couldn’t resolve an issue; they took it to the Apostolic Church:

…it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question.They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them…But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law.” The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter. After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us…The whole assembly fell silent, and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them…After they had fallen silent, James responded, "My brothers, listen to me…It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God…but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood…Then the apostles and presbyters, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers.

Jesus told His disciples…tells you and I to attempt to settle the dispute, and if we can’t, we should share it with two or three more people, and if we still can’t resolve the problem, we are to take the matter to Jesus’ church, and if we refuse to listen even to the church, then we are to be treated a Gentile or a tax collector. Matthew 18:17 The only difference is: you take it to your bible and I take it to my church, which codified your bible! Jesus’ church to which He is the Head and Savior, is the final arbiter.

I guess that’s why Jesus said to His One Apostolic Church (and, if it’s NOT the C.C. --then which church):

…you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

 

[fbl9]

1)The Jewish leaders of the synagogue taught that Jesus was not the fulfillment of the OT. If you were a Jew at the time of Christ, you would have to know the OT for yourself (personal interpretation of the scriptures) and believe that your interpretation was correct and that the priests and scribes interpretation was wrong. You would then have to act on your personal understanding of the Bible and step out in faith against the popular teaching and subject yourself to persecution in order to obey the Gospel.

2)How did John the Baptist know that he was being led of God when He was not approved by the Jewish leaders?

3)All believers must be led of the word of God and the Holy Spirit first and foremost over the teaching of any man.

4)For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [Rom 8:14]

hi thanks for the reply,looks like our times are out of synch.
1)Actually the gospels are silent on your opinion in this matter. From my memeory i don’t remember reading anything about the Jewish leaders teaching such a thing…We know that during the Jewish worship that the word of God was read,so all who had ears to hear heard the turth of the messiah.

1. and again there is no evidence in the gospels for this opinion of yours.

3)and again there is no evidence for this opinion of yours.BTW did you come to Christ by listening to a man teach?

1. and united they stand unlike some other persons we know of.

 

[jlhargus]

The Jewish leaders of the synagogue taught that Jesus was not the fulfillment of the OT.

JL: Not so, some leaders believed, Jn12:42 Nevertheless AMONG THE CHIEF RULERS ALSO MANY BELIEVED ON HIM; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue Lk23:50 Now there was a man named Joseph, A MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL, a good and upright man, 51who had not consented to their decision and action. He came from the Judean town of Arimathea and he was waiting for the kingdom of God. Also the OT church did not have the pormise of the Holy Spirit to lead them into ALL TRUTH, nor the promise the gates of hell would not prevail, nor the promise given to Peter that is faith will fail not.

If you were a Jew at the time of Christ, you would have to know the OT for yourself (personal interpretation of the scriptures) and believe that your interpretation was correct and that the priests and scribes interpretation was wrong. You would then have to act on your personal understanding of the Bible and step out in faith against the popular teaching and subject yourself to persecution in order to obey the Gospel.

JL: No so again, no one new the OT better than Paul, yet he did not get it did he? It took an act of God and Paul’s acceptance of that grace for Paul to believe and then be baptized to wash away his sins, [Acts22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, AND WASH AWAY THEY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] Then Paul went into the desert of Arabia for three years to re-think his OT theology. Remember the Jewish BEREANS, the only scriptures around in their time was the Old Testament. The Bereans already knew the OT very well, but they only understood the OT, after Paul preached, in the LIGHT of what Christ revealed. Then they searched the scriptures (OT) in the LIGHT of the Gospel, to see if those things, not seen or understood before, were so. The early fathers of the Church say, the NT is hidden in the OT and the OT is revealed in the NT.

How did John the Baptist know that he was being led of God when He was not approved by the Jewish leaders?

JL: John the Baptist was a prophet and had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb.

All believers must be led of the word of God and the Holy Spirit first and foremost over the teaching of any man.

JL: Before we are believers spiritual life must first be conceived in us, by that free gift of faith given by the Holy Spirit. At that point we have a choice, accept or abort that gift. If we accept then we are delivered a child of God by water and the Spirit. Where our sins are washed away by baptism then we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is one of the things Adam lost for all.

 

[joe370]

My interpretation of the word is NOT infallible, that is why I quote the “Word of God” which is infallible. Ralph

Ralph, my interpretation of the Holy Bible is not infallible either! I agree; the Holy Bible is inerrant, but it is not self-interpretive; if it were, you and I would be attending the same church, interpreting the Holy Bible in the same way…Agreed???

Ralph, perhaps Jesus’ Holy Church, guided by the Holy Spirit in perpetuity, as per the Holy Bible, that determined which books were and were not holy and inerrant, has the right to interpret the Holy Bible; what do you think???

 

[davidv]

Praise God! Glad to hear it!

So you are saying that the priest is not necessary to receive absolution from sin and you are saying that the priest is not necessary to transform the bread and wine?

Praise God!

You forgot to ask why it was false. This isn’t the reason.

A priest in not required for a valid baptism

In marraige, the priest is only a witness. The couple administers the sacrament to each other.

 

[fbl9]

You know what, I get tired of the statement “the catholic church teaches”. You are absolutely wrong in this statement. The “ROMAN catholic church teaches” is the correct statement you should be making, as that is who you are refering to. The “catholic church” are those who are saved and belong to the body of Christ, of which I belong, this is the universal church of God. Ralph

no Ralphy your church is not even any wheres close to being universal…could please give us your defination of universal?

 

[guanophore]

Praise God! Glad to hear it!

So you are saying that the priest is not necessary to receive absolution from sin and you are saying that the priest is not necessary to transform the bread and wine?

Praise God!

I am saying that the statements you posted previously are not true.

God can absolve the sins of anyone He likes, however He chooses.

God chooses to transform the bread and the wine through an ordained priest.

 

[joe370]

The priest is absolutely necessary for the Holy Spirit to transform the bread and wine; if he is not to do as Christ did, then who???

Again…Last supper:

Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”

And His established church ministers, starting with His apostles, for He was only addressing them, have been doing this in remembrance of Jesus, since Pentecost, and they believed Him when He said: This is my Body, for He didn’t say: this is a symbol of my body; if the apostles believed shouldn’t we all believe???

His first century church believed Him; His 2nd 3rd 4th…century church believed Him; everyone believed Him for 1500 years, until the institution of the reformation, whereby the reformers, almost immediately, started bickering about the true presence in the bread, to the point that they finally went their separate ways; not off to a real good start if you ask me.

Was Jesus’ established church duped by the evil one for the first 1500 years of Christianity??? Will someone answer this question before this thread is closed.

When the minister blesses (why the need for the blessing which is the invoking of God’s favor; why is God necessary if the bread remains bread?) --and breaks the bread in pieces and gives the bread to those at the church, to eat, he is doing as Christ did at the last supper, just as Christ request, and we believe it is His Body when we eat the bread because Jesus said: take eat, this is my Body. I can’t for the life of me figure out why this seems so complicated, considering the fact that there are many other things in the bible that prove to be much more challenging, e.g. the book of Revelations.

Every church regardless of denomination should be receiving this bread from their ministers/pastors, minus the blessing of course, and eating this bread, even if you believe it’s only a symbol, however Paul believed that this was to eat the bread unworthily. Bread in and of itself in no way symbolizes flesh! The door (I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved…) is a clear symbol of Jesus; the door represents the entryway into Heaven, via Christ. If anyone can prove to me that the bread which which is to be blessed and eaten, is a symbol (which is something used for or regarded as representing something else) --of Jesus’ flesh…is a symbol of Jesus’ atoning work on the cross, I will be the first to walk away from the C.C.! Bread in no way directly or indirectly represents flesh; bread represents satiety, if it can represent anything! Bread is food and you cannot symbolically eat food!

 

[BereanRuss]

…the gospels are silent on your opinion in this matter. From my memeory i don’t remember reading anything about the Jewish leaders teaching such a thing…

His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had agreed already that if anyone confessed that He was Christ, he would be put out of the synagogue. [John 9:22]