Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[NotWorthy]

Then it is impossible to be reconciled to God without the Priest? Yikes, Joe, that sure condemns a lot of Christians.

Has anybody on this thread made that claim?

 

[BereanRuss]

You claim that the earthly priesthood was made up essentially, by the C.C., and is not to be believed because the word priest is not used to identify the C.C. minister, even though the function of that priesthood can be clearly identified in the bible…

A priest is a mediator between God and man. In the NT there is only ONE mediator between God and man – Jesus.

You say that the “function of (a mediator between God and man) can be clearly identified in the bible”. Please show me this from the NT.

 

[jmcrae]

THere is no earthly priest in this verse Joe.

There are at least 11 “earthly priests” in this verse - Jesus is saying to them “do this” (sacrifice the bread and wine, and make it to be the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ) "in anamnesis of Me. [anamnesis=the bringing forward in time to the now, and the making of the experience of it to be real] "

 

[BereanRuss]

If you take Scripture verses out of isolation, you can come up with all sorts of goofy ideas.

Please show me the other “mediators between God and man” in the NT. If there is more than one, they should be easy to find.

 

[NotWorthy]

A priest is a mediator between God and man. In the NT there is only ONE mediator between God and man – Jesus.

You say that the “function of (a mediator between God and man) can be clearly identified in the bible”. Please show me this from the NT.

This question is poorly framed. But the NT does show that interceding for others is good.

1 Tim. 2: 1-4 - 1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,*** 2 ****** for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.****** 3 ****** This is good and pleasing to God our savior,****** 4 ****** who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.***

 

[NotWorthy]

Please show me the other “mediators between God and man” in the NT. If there is more than one, they should be easy to find.

James 5: 14-15 - 14 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,*** 15 ****** and the prayer of faith will save the sick person,** and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.*
There’s so much going on here, Russ.

a) Why does James say a “presbyter of the church” should be summoned.
b) The prayer of the faith will save the sick person.
c) If all his sins are forgiven during the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, why is there a further need to have his sins forgiven?

 

[ecaro]

bradwill911:
At that time he did not know his path and was unsure. Untill he set ot to the deasert for 40 and40 nights because at baptism GOD put the holy spirt in him.

 

[NotWorthy]

At that time he did not know his path and was unsure. Untill he set ot to the deasert for 40 and40 nights because at baptism GOD put the holy spirt in him.

First of all, welcome to the Forums!!!

Second of all, “What”?

At the Baptism of Jesus, God did NOT put the Holy Spirit in Him. The Three have been One for all time.

 

[BereanRuss]

JL: Please show me that evidence, otherwise it is only your opinion

The question at hand here is, “Did the religious leaders of the Jews teach that Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT?”

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue…[John 12:42]

Now some of them from Jerusalem said, "Is this not He whom they seek to kill? But look! He speaks boldly, and they say nothing to Him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is truly the Christ… The Pharisees heard the crowd murmuring these things concerning Him, and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take Him. [John 7:25, 32]

Then the Pharisees answered them, “Are you also deceived? Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him? But this crowd that does not know the law is accursed.” [John 7:47…]

And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people. [Luke 22:2]

Then Jesus said to the chief priests, captains of the temple, and the elders who had come to Him, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs? Having arrested Him, they led Him and brought Him into the high priest’s house. [Luke 22:52, 54]

Then the detachment of troops and the captain and the officers of the Jews arrested Jesus and bound Him. And they led Him away to Annas first, for he was the father-in-law of Caiaphas who was high priest that year. [John 18:12]

It was the leaders of the Jews the arrested and crucified Jesus.

 

[jmcrae]

The question at hand here is, “Did the religious leaders of the Jews teach that Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT?”

Jesus Himself was a religious leader of the Jews (a Rabbi with licenses to preach in the synagogues and in the Temple) and so was John the Baptist (he was a priest in the line of Levi) - so, yes - at least two Jewish religious leaders were teaching that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament.

There were many religious leaders who disagreed with this. However, since God had never said to their ancestors, “What you bind on earth is bound in Heaven, and what you loose on earth is loosed in Heaven” there is actually no problem with the fact that they were not infallible. Nor did God ever say to Israel, “the gates of Hell shall never prevail against thee.” (See Matthew 16:18-19)

 

[BereanRuss]

JL: We all have the same access as any pastor, priest or pope, but we all still mediate or intercede for one another.

If this were true you could confess your sin to anyone in the church, not just the priest. You require the priest to mediate for you to the Father.

By your personal definition then when a Christian prays for those who do not know Christ they are mediating as that person does not have access.

That is your definition, not mine.

Tell me what does Christ do to mediate for us? When the priest mediates at mass, he is the sacramental sign of Christ mediating, just as baptismal water is the sacramental sign of the action of Holy Spirit. It is Christ himself offering the sacrifice. I still have direct access to the Father thru Christ, plus I mediate when I pray for anyone.

The priest stands between you and God to present the sacrifice to God on you behalf. If this were not true then anyone could say mass, not just the priest.

 

[BereanRuss]

Has anybody on this thread made that claim?

Joe did.

“Paul as one of the principal ministers, along with the rest of the bishops and presbyters and their successors via the imposition of hands, in perpetuity, were given the ministry of reconciliation, entrusting to them the message of reconciliation…”

 

[NotWorthy]

The question at hand here is, “Did the religious leaders of the Jews teach that Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT?”

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue…[John 12:42]

Now some of them from Jerusalem said, "Is this not He whom they seek to kill? But look! He speaks boldly, and they say nothing to Him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is truly the Christ… The Pharisees heard the crowd murmuring these things concerning Him, and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take Him. [John 7:25, 32]

Then the Pharisees answered them, “Are you also deceived? Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him? But this crowd that does not know the law is accursed.” [John 7:47…]

And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people. [Luke 22:2]

Then Jesus said to the chief priests, captains of the temple, and the elders who had come to Him, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs? Having arrested Him, they led Him and brought Him into the high priest’s house. [Luke 22:52, 54]

Then the detachment of troops and the captain and the officers of the Jews arrested Jesus and bound Him. And they led Him away to Annas first, for he was the father-in-law of Caiaphas who was high priest that year. [John 18:12]

It was the leaders of the Jews the arrested and crucified Jesus.

I’m a little confused at what this has to do with the thread, but the Pharisees began to crack during Jesus’ time. We see evidence of this from Nicodemus, although overwhelmingly the Pharisees were against Jesus. People, who are facing the loss of authority, tend to do that.

But in Acts, around chapter 7, the many of the preists of the Mosaic Covenant begin converting to Catholicism.

 

[BereanRuss]

This question is poorly framed. But the NT does show that interceding for others is good.

First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone for kings and for all in authority…

There is nothing wrong with the question and this is not an example of a mediator.

PRAYING FOR ANOTHER PERSON IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO BEING A MEDIATOR. A mediator or a priest is one who stands BETWEEN God and man. Praying for another is standing alongside that person – not between.

Put is this way. I can pray for you and you can pray for me because we stand alongside each other.

A priest can hear your confession but you cannot hear his because he is not standing alongside – he is standing BETWEEN you and God. That is why you cannot hear his confession but he only hears yours.

 

[NotWorthy]

Joe did.

“Paul as one of the principal ministers, along with the rest of the bishops and presbyters and their successors via the imposition of hands, in perpetuity, were given the ministry of reconciliation, entrusting to them the message of reconciliation…”

Yes, that’s what Joe said. But you equated that with:

  			Originally Posted by **BereanRuss** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5094812#post5094812) 				
  		*Then it is impossible to be reconciled to God without the Priest?  Yikes, Joe, that sure condemns a lot of Christians.*

That’s a hard twist of interpration there, BR.

 

[jmcrae]

A priest can hear your confession but you cannot hear his because he is not standing alongside – he is standing BETWEEN you and God. That is why you cannot hear his confession but he only hears yours.

Jesus did not create a democracy of equals. He Himself set Peter above the Apostles, the Apostles above the 70, and the 70 above the crowds. It was to Peter that He gave authority to bind and loose, and later, with Peter, to the other Apostles.

Such authority was never given either to the 70 or to the crowds.

 

[BereanRuss]

Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

a) Why does James say a “presbyter of the church” should be summoned.
b) The prayer of faith will save the sick person.
c) If all his sins are forgiven during the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, why is there a further need to have his sins forgiven?

a. Why shouldn’t the leaders of the church come and pray for the sick?
b. You skipped the previous verse. All can pray for the sick, not just the leaders.

Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.

c. I never said that Christians don’t sin after they are saved nor does the Bible say that. I said that Christians are to seek forgiveness from God through the One Meadiator, Jesus Christ. Not through a priest.

 

[NotWorthy]

a. Why shouldn’t the leaders of the church come and pray for the sick?
b. You skipped the previous verse. All can pray for the sick, not just the leaders.

Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.

c. I never said that Christians don’t sin after they are saved nor does the Bible say that. I said that Christians are to seek forgiveness from God through the One Meadiator, Jesus Christ. Not through a priest.

It sounds like James is requesting the leaders for the Anointing of the Sick. Why does James single out, “go fetch the elders”, instead of “have all the faithful”.

But, trying to stick to a single point that you brought up, this sure looks like intercession and mediation, but always in harmony with Christ, not instead of Christ.

 

[NotWorthy]

A priest can hear your confession but you cannot hear his because he is not standing alongside – he is standing BETWEEN you and God. That is why you cannot hear his confession but he only hears yours.

No, he can hear mine because he has been given that authority through Apostolic Succesion. He has the authority given by Jesus in John 20:20-23.

I can not hear his because I am simply one of the faithful. I can forgive his sins all I want (and I should, according to Christ), but I can’t forgive in the name of Jesus, as he can.

In the meantime, the Church doesn’t teach that the priest is the only one who can forgive my sins. Hence, you can’t say he is standing between me and God.

Catholics, though, tend to understand that if Jesus gave this authority to men, then He most certainly wishes us to gain from this gift of authority.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, that’s what Joe said. But you equated that with:

That’s a hard twist of interpration there, BR.

Actually, it’s pretty accurate. If a baptized Protestant commits a mortal sin, how does he get back into God’s grace? Since he can’t go to Confession.