Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[Mangy_Donkey]

So your question is a bait and switch. What you really want to ‘prove’ is that Catholics aren’t being honest…that, while we hold to literal belief in the Eucharist as a saving Sacrament instituted by Christ and His Church…we are ‘condemning’ others (as unsaved) by our belief.

What you really want to discuss, it would seem, is ‘salvation outside the Church’ and using the Eucharist as an approach. to prove a contradiction.

I knew from the get go that the OP was patronizing, that it was not a genuine question and leading up to the " I’ll try and teach these simple Catholics" I see this all the time, I kinda called it the “set the trap” question, but you byzgirl have given me the term that I should refer to these arguments as, the bait and switch. Very good Byzgirl, thanks.

 

[BereanRuss]

According to the manner in which you interpret it, yes. However, from a Catholic perspective, there is no contradiction.

Most assuredly (Amen, amen), I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. [John 5:24]

Most assuredly (Amen, amen), I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. [John 6:53]

The theology of the CC does indeed require Jesus to contradict Himself. This contradiction is specifically created by the addition of the priesthood for it is the priesthood that requires John 6:53 to be literal.

 

[mikeledes]

Yes it does…

if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [Rom 10:9]

And the next verse…

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [Rom 10:10]

Actually, its not only confessing Jesus as Lord - which is a profession before men - that results in salvation. Paul also goes one to say that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. So its believe, confess, and calling on His name.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

It is impossible for God to lie. If salvation is not through believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth but is by keeping the commandments instead then God is a liar and Christ died in vain…

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." [Gal 2:21]

You are creating a false dichotomy, Russ. To believe and to confess means to obey.

John 14:15-17
15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

You see that the coming of the HS is contingent upon obedience.

John 14:18-21
“I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you will see me; because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Jesus manifests Himself to those who keep his commandments.

John 15:9-11
10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Keeping His commandments fills us with joy. Following His commandments results in our ultimate freedom, because they are designed to make us completely human, partakers of His Divine Majesty, and to reflect His image and likeness in us.

It is sad that you seem to believe that obeying Jesus is “burdensome” or somehow slavery to “law”. The Law of love is how we are set “free indeed” to become all thatJesus created us to be.

1 John 3:22-24
22 and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.

It is not confess with the mouth…instead…keep commandments. The keeping of His commandments is a reflection of our confessed faith.

 

[fbl9]

If the CC’s interpretation of John 6:53 is correct then I CANNOT be a Christian for I do not have LIFE unless I eat of His flesh…

Otherwise the words of Jesus (Amen, amen…) are meaningless! If we cannot trust Him when He says Amen then we cannot trust Him at all.

St.Joh 9;41"Jesus said to them,“If you were blind,you would not have sin.But now that you say ‘we see’, your sin remains”…now Russ you claim to see so your sin in rejectig Christ in the Eucharist remains…if you didn’t come here and recieve the truth you could have some excuse but as it is now your sin remains.

 

[jmcrae]

That is correct. But He DID say that whoever believes does have life (see post 1225 for a list)

And whoever believes will join His Church. Why wouldn’t they? Unless they had been deceived into thinking that Jesus has no Church.

 

[cazayoux]

This again, is your understanding. You just read it differently than the first 1500 years of Christians did. The Apostles and those who were members of the early Church understood and believed completely in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

I wonder if the year A.D. 110 is early enough … or from a student of the apostle, John.

Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans (A.D. 110)
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out [through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as where Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

Russ, Ralphy … Do you still maintain that you are following the ‘early’ Church?

michel

 

[mikeledes]

Jesus says that it is what goes into the mouth that gives life. Paul says it is what comes out of the mouth that saves.

Jesus says, “whoever comes to me I will no way cast out”. Then He says, “Amen, amen, unless you eat…”

He “contradicts” Himself because you are starting off with a faulty premise. To eat the Body and Blood of the Lord is an act of faith because it is faith that moves you to eat and only one who who has faith can subjectively appropriate the spiritual blessings offered in the Eucharist. However, those who refuse to eat because they *do not believe *do not partake of that which Christ offers, namely, life. So refusal to eat the Body and Blood of Christ is evidence of lack of faith in Christ and a person who lacks faith in Christ cannot have life.

CC theology demands that Jesus contradicts Himself in these verses. It is the addition of the priesthood demands that John 6:53 is literal. The theology of the CC demands that Jesus contradicts Himself.

Actually, its Protestantism that makes Christ contradict Himself. Let me correct that. Martin Luther believed that John 6:53 was literal and the Lutheran Church still teaches that. Do you believe Martin Luther made Christ contradict Himself as well?

By interpreting John 6:53 literally and equating Jesus’ word to taking communion ONLY in the CC the CC denies the following…

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart you will be saved.

In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise…

The Catholic Church denies the Protestant understanding of these passages.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jmcrae]

Most assuredly (Amen, amen), I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. [John 5:24]

Most assuredly (Amen, amen), I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. [John 6:53]

It sounds like we need to do both, doesn’t it?

If my boss says to me, “Amen, Amen, I say to you, make enough photocopies of the meeting agenda for everyone who will be present,” and then later on he says, “Amen, Amen I say to you, run out and get a box of donuts or something for the meeting, and make sure the coffee is on,” do I say, “Oh, he must not have meant the second thing literally, because he said the first thing,” or do I say, “Okay, I will make enough photocopies of the agenda for everyone at the meeting, and I will also make sure there are donuts and coffee available for the meeting.”

The theology of the CC does indeed require Jesus to contradict Himself. This contradiction is specifically created by the addition of the priesthood for it is the priesthood that requires John 6:53 to be literal.

It is also perfectly possible for Jesus to have made two separate commands, both of which, we are required to follow.

 

[mikeledes]

Most assuredly (Amen, amen), I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. [John 5:24]

Most assuredly (Amen, amen), I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. [John 6:53]

The theology of the CC does indeed require Jesus to contradict Himself. This contradiction is specifically created by the addition of the priesthood for it is the priesthood that requires John 6:53 to be literal.

And it is your soteriology - not the Bible - that requires these passages not to be literal. You keep on insisting here that what comes out of your mouth is what saves you. Well this fits in a Catholic soteriology, but not a Protestant one. Why? Because Protestantism teaches salvation through faith alone and yet you keep arguing that not only must you have faith (believe in your heart) but also confess with your mouth. Its believe and confess and you will be saved, not believe alone and you will be saved.

As Catholics, it is faith that moves us to receive Chrsit in the Sacrament and Christ has promised that the one who eats His Flesh and Blood abides in Him. The Greek word used here (meno) means to stay where you are, continue, remain. Through the Eucharist, our souls are nourished - if we have faith - and the vital union we have with Christ is strengthened. In other words, we continue to partake of the life-giving sap that is in the True Vine.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

One of the reasons why John 6 proves the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is the fact that throughout the Gospel of John, John makes an effort to explain things that may not be clear to the reader or was not clear to those who first heard the words of Christ. Here are some examples:

John 2:20-21

20The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

John 6:70-71

70Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

John 7:38-39

38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’"
39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive

John 8:26-27

**26"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."
27They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. **

John 10:1-10

1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."
6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

John 12:32-33

**32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die. **

John 13:10-11

**10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.” **

John 21:18-19

**18 Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.” 19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. **

John 21:23

**23Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?” **

So it seems rather odd and out of character for John not to provide a clarification or explanation of Jesus’s words in John 6 if Jesus was only speaking figuratively, especially since this is the only recorded instance where disciples of Christ leave because of what Christ said. If John habitually provides a clarification when Christ made less controversial statements, then why is it that he doesn’t provide one when Jesus makes one of the most controversial statements in the Gospels? The fact that John provides no clarification indicates that Jesus meant what He said and hence needed no clarification from John. But John is not the only one that clarifies Jesus’s statements. Jesus also does it Himself.

Continued in next post.

 

[mikeledes]

Jesus also has a habit of clarifying His statements and this habit is most pronounced in the Gospel of John. In fact, in the Gospel of John there is a basic pattern of progressive revelation that usually begins with an ambiguous statement and ends with a calrifying statement.
This is the basic outline of this pattern:

1. **Ambiguous Statement by Jesus **
2. Misunderstanding/ Question/Challenge
3. Clarification

The calrification is usually made by Jesus Himself, but sometimes John does it himself for the reader. Now here are some examples from the Gospel of John:

John 2:19-21

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and you will raise it up in three days? But He was speaking of the temple of His body."

John 3:3-5

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?Jesus answered, "Truly Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

John 4:32-34

"But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” So the disciples were saying to one another, 'no one brought Him anything to eat, did he? Jesus said to them, " My Food is to do the will of Him who sent me and to accomplish His work."

John 8:31-34

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who believed in Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered Him, "We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, “You will become free.” Jesus answered them, "Truly, Truly I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

Now let’s look at John 6:51-53 and see if it fits the Ambiguous Statement/Question/Clarification pattern:

"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them, Truly, Truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you have no life in yourselves.

So, following the established pattern, verse 53 is a clarification of verses 51-52. If he were merely speaking figuratively, then we would have expected the literal meaning of the “figurative” langauge He used in verse 53. Instead, what we see in verse 53 is a reaffirmation of what the Jews understood Jesus to mean, using His characteristic “Truly, truly” or “Amen, amen” before He reveals a sacred truth (see John 3:5 and John 8:34) . And not only does he reaffrim, but He also adds drinking blood to eating flesh. All of this indicates that Jesus was speaking literally, not figuratively.

Continued in next post.

 

[mikeledes]

Here are some more examples of the ambiguous statement/question or misunderstanding/clarification pattern. Also, note the use of “Truly, Truly” in some of the examples:

John 4:10-14

**10Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11She said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?
12"You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?”
13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” **

John 8:21-24

**21Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.”
22So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?”
23And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” **

John 8:26-29

**26"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."
27They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.
28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
29"And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” **

John 8:56-58

**56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” **

John 10:1-10

**1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."
6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
7So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. **

John 11:11-14

**11This He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.”
12The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, **

In the last example, we have both John and Jesus explain what verse 11 meant.

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life

This verse does not mean that Jesus was speaking figuratively. The word “Spirit” is used to refer to those things that pertain to God and the word “flesh” refers to those things that pertain to sin. If “Spirit” meant “figurative”, then God is figurative because He is also “Spirit.” So the contrast is not between the literal and the figurative, but between that which is of God and that which is of sin or purely human origin. We constantly see the Spirit vs. flesh construct thorughout the Bible:

Galatians 5:16

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Romans 8:5-6

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace

So what Jesus meant in John 6:63 was not that he was speaking figuratively. Rather, that His words originate from God (i.e. Spirit) and they are life giving (i.e. life). He said this in response to the rejection of His teaching. Those who were “carnally minded” rejected His teaching, while those who were “spiritually minded” accepted it. If one thinks in a “carnally minded” way, then one will not accept Christ words. Consequently, the flesh profits nothing because its end is death. Those who are in the Spirit receive life (Romans 8:6). To be “carnally minded” does not mean to be literally minded. It means to have a mind that is in rebellion against God. Those who were in such a state did not accept Jesus’s words.

To be continued.

 

[mikeledes]

When Jesus said that He would give His flesh for the life of the world, the Jews reponded (John 6:52):

**52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” **

This is similar to an earlier response to Jesus’s claim that He is the Bread that came down from heaven (John 6:41-42):

**41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” **

In the case of the latter, did the Jews understand Jesus correctly, namely, that He literally came down from heaven? They did! Jesus literally - not figuratively - came down from heaven. This is one instance where Jesus was speaking literally and the Jews understood Him to be speaking literally. The other example comes a couple of verses later in John 6. Jesus makes a statement that the Jews take literally and He reaffirms that their basic understanding of what He said is correct (John 6:51-58). Eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is as literal as His coming down from Heaven. His return to Heaven (ascension) will reaffirm the truth He has revealed regarding His origin and hence the fact that what He said regarding His flesh and blood is of the Spirit (i.e. a revelation of God) and not of the flesh (a statement of purely human origin). That’s why He responds (John 6:61-62):

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

His ascension will vindicate His words and thus prove that the words He spoke are spirit and life, that is, that they are of God and are life-giving.

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

Some have argued that John 6:51-58 is about faith and that Jesus gives the explanation of the “metaphor” prior to actually using the metaphor. This goes against Jesus’s established teaching method in which the metaphor or parable usually precedes the explanation, such as in the case of the parables of the sower and the wheat and the tares.

 If John 6:51-58 were talking about faith, then why the controversy? :shrug:  Didn't He just explain that eating His flesh and drinking His blood means to believe in Him?  And if they were already *disciples*, then what would be the problem with accepting  that they must believe in Him?  In fact, there was no real controversy when He said earlier about believing in Him in order to receive eternal life.  The first objection was *not* to Christ being the object of faith, but to His claim regarding His origin (i.e. from heaven). 

 And as I have stated in previous posts, the established pattern in Jesus's method of teaching/preaching in the Gospel of John is one of progressive revelation.  He moves from ambiguity to greater clarity, *not* from clarity to greater ambiguity.  So it would  be odd and out of character for Him to start with the literal meaning *first *(i.e. faith) and then use the metaphor.

Moreover, John 6:56 talks about “abiding.”

56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

The Greek word translated “abiding” is “meno,” which means to continue, stay, remain, etc. Thus the assumption is that the person who abides in Christ has already come to faith in Him and has already been incorporated into Christ. Hence, abiding occurs subsequent to coming to Christ in faith and incorporation. What is being decribed here is an act rooted in faith, but not identical to faith.

John 15:3-4
**3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. **

1 John 2:28

28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

So eating the Body of Christ and drinking His Blood is a means of abiding in Christ. Thus it was most appropriate for Him to start with faith in chapter 6 and then move to abiding in Christ through the Eucharist because coming to faith precedes abiding and one must believe* first *before partaking of the Eucharist. Only those who have a living faith can subjectively benefit from receiving the Eucharist. And those who remain in Christ will be raised by Him on the last day and not suffer eternal damnation.

John 15:4-6

**4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[PRmerger]

It sounds like we need to do both, doesn’t it?

If my boss says to me, “Amen, Amen, I say to you, make enough photocopies of the meeting agenda for everyone who will be present,” and then later on he says, “Amen, Amen I say to you, run out and get a box of donuts or something for the meeting, and make sure the coffee is on,” do I say, “Oh, he must not have meant the second thing literally, because he said the first thing,” or do I say, “Okay, I will make enough photocopies of the agenda for everyone at the meeting, and I will also make sure there are donuts and coffee available for the meeting.”.

That is HYSTERICAL, JMc!

Hysterically funny, yes, but also a makes our point quite well~:clapping:

 

[cazayoux]

1251 posts!!! most I’ve seen. cool.

michel

 

[PRmerger]

1251 posts!!! most I’ve seen. cool.

michel

Yup, pretty cool. And, I must say this thread has been relatively respectful and cordial. I’ve been on a few threads that devolved rather quickly into rudeness (usually with atheists and probable teenage boys.)

 

[guanophore]

Then why do you call them “brethren”?

Because God has revealed to us that everyone who is validly baptized, or who is connected to Him as the Head of the Church is, by default, a part of His one Body.
He only has One Body, therefore, all who are saved are members of it.

Jesus excluded all who do not take communion in the CC when He said, “Amen, amen”. Why don’t you believe the Lord when He says, “Amen?”

If they have become disciples, such as those to whom this was addressed, then they have an obligation to follow His commandments.

Most people who don’t receive communion have never received the Apostolic Teaching. God does not hold people responsible for what they don’t know.

The Apostle Paul said, “…all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved…”.

Yes, and when you read the rest of what Paul wrote, it is clear that for him, as with the rest of the Apostles, “calling upon His name” meant accepted all that He commanded.

God saved all who put the blood on the door at Passover.  Anyone with the lamb’s blood on the door was saved, Egyptians included.  Protestants are covered in the blood of Christ.

This is what they have been taught to believe. Only God knows who is covered, and who is not.

1 Cor 4:5
5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart.

 And Jesus condemned the successors of Moses and the sons of the Prophets.

God has established His word above His name.

Yes. So, if you want to run the risk of missing the mark by picking and choosing what is comfortable for you, or what makes sense to you, instead of receiving what was passed down to us from the Apostles, that is certainly your perogative.

Yes it does…

if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [Rom 10:9]

And the next verse…

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [Rom 10:10]

What he is saying is that this kind of believing heart is an obedient heart that follows the commandments. To “confess with the mouth” means to speak the creed of the Church, embracing all that the Apostles believed and taught. Scripture is clear that those who love Him will follow His commandments. The two are not separated from one another.

Why do you call them brethren when Jesus says they do not have life? If you have life and they do not, why call them brethren?

The Lord knows those who are his, Russ. We are responsible for what we have been taught, which is, as His disciples, if we do not eat, we will not have life. We are not in a position to judge another’s servant. We cannot see into the heart of a man, to know that he does not receive out of ignorance, or rebellion. Only God knows that. In the meantime, we accept their baptism and their confession of faith as valid.