Do Catholics believe Protestants are going to hell?

[Marsha_Adams]

James:

Here is the link to the Chicago Archdiocese outreach program:

goingforth.org/en/catholics_come_home_chicago/

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Your interpretation makes it sound as if anybody who believes in Christ and was in a prolonged contact with the Catholic Church and then rejects the CC is a “wicked heretic” and therefore might be destined for hell.
You are aware that there are several former Catholics on this board, one of which I am? As far as I can see it many of these are wonderful Christians, strong in their faith and in their dedication to the Lord, as much as you are.
Was I right in my thoughts about your comment?

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

Janet:

Thank you for saying this better than I ever could. Like you, I am one of those former Catholics, strong in my faith and in my relationship with the Lord.

Does the Catholic Church really consider us “wicked heretics”?

Priscilla Ann

 

[aspirant]

In terms of it “not being fair” for those with invincible ignorance getting into heaven versus a life long devout catholic, I just have to ask, who are you to put a limit on God’s mercy?

Anyone who objects that God’s mercy isn’t “fair” needs to read up on Jesus’ parables, especially passages like Luke 15:25-32 & Matthew 20:10-15.

Certainly Hell is real and people do go there, but lets not go condemning people there as if we were the almighty.

Agreed.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Anyone who objects that God’s mercy isn’t “fair” needs to read up on Jesus’ parables, especially passages like Luke 15:25-32 & Matthew 20:10-15.

Agreed.

Who here is objecting to God’s Mercy? Let’s not mix figs and pears please. If the comment is vicariously directed at me then know for certain that my complaint was against the absurd logic that a non-repentant grave sinner could be shown mercy without repenting or that there are more souls saved by “invincible ignorance” as a new salvific “norm” over those who are saved by instruction and proper exercise of the faith.

In your attempts at pandering to those who insist in staying outside of the Catholic Church by presuming on God’s Mercy you are really creating a false argument and a false comparison. The fist referenced verses are the parable of Prodigal’s Son. The central message is REPENTANCE, rejecting one’s living according to one’s own desires outside of father’s house a RETURN to the Familial Community. While the errant son was away living a life contrary to what he was taught he was outside the good graces of his father’s house and was thus “DEAD to His Father” (i.e. MORTAL SIN). This is example of returning to the good graces of God’s family - the Catholic Church.

*Luke 15:24 "…for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was **lost *and has been found."

God’s Mercy is unfathomable & available for the person who REPENTS with a sincere heart and turns away from error to return to the flock. But God can NOT set aside His Word to change His nature nor change His Justice. It’s an immutable Divine Conveyance that those who die in grave sin go to hell. That is by definition to die outside of a “right relationship” with Christ and His inseperable Body & Bride - The Catholic Church. No Communion equals an “I don’t know you” and eternal damnation.

The Prodigal’s Son is a classic example of how the withering effects of sin (what anathema and excommunication permits to happen to a stubborn soul) can bring a person to their knees and lead to repentance and a return HOME. This was exactly why The Catholic Church anathematized the erroneous Protestant teachings.

The Prodigal’s Son parable has little bearing on the discussion at hand since Protestants REMAIN in seperation from The Church. They are related substantially as SEPARATED brothers in Christ living precariously outside of the Father’s House in an estranged relationship that is quite tenuous. Being moral is not good enough - we are called to proper worship, holiness and to obedience as well. Likewise the Prodigal’s Son had no house to live in (not even an invisible one) when he was AWOL and living according to his own seared conscience and every irresponsible whim. If you still want to use this verse in this context of discussion then you have to apply the Prodigal’s words to the estranged status of his son to Protestants - that makes them DEAD TO US. I doubt your intention was to imply that Protestants are to a man DEAD to us by referencing this scripture verse did you?

Now the other verse you reference:

Matthew 20:10-15 is the parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard. This has nothing to do with Mercy. It has to do with God’s generosity in giving the same pay/reward to those who arrived late to labor as to those who labored all day. BTW this is great Catholic teaching on faith+works as well that runs counter to the Protestant sola fide theory. So again, if you want to apply this parable here to this discussion then it best applies in the case of Protestants RETURNING LATE in the day to labor for the single landowner ( Christ thru his Vicar) in building up the Kingdom of God. This is nothing do with laboring for a different (secular) landowner since there is only one landowner that merits us anything. No Catholic would object in the least to a Protestant coming in very late in the day to labor to build up the Catholic Church (the Kingdom of God). We just want them to return home and be with us as soon as possible since we need their energy and devotion - desperately.

I think in you examples you just fell into a serendipity that strengthens the Catholic position even more. God does indeed work in unexpected and mysterious ways. Each day on CAF has its own surprises…

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

James,

 I am not saying that we should be okay with ignorance of the Catholic Faith or that we shouldn't do our best to bring all peoples into the fullness of the truth contained within the Church. In terms of it "not being fair" for those with invincible ignorance getting into heaven versus a life long devout catholic, I just have to ask, who are you to put a limit on God's mercy? Certainly God is infinitely just as well as infinitely merciful. Have you ever heard of the different degrees of reward in heaven? Certainly Hell is real and people do go there, but lets not go condemning people there as if we were the almighty.

First of all let me say that my comments were not really directed to you. I just used your post as a convenient reply-to springboard to get some thoughts on the matter into the discussion. So please don’t take my contributions personally so you feel a compulsion to judge me out of a defensive reflex.

Secondly I have not in any way put a limit on God’s mercy nor judged a single soul. I objected not in the least to God’s Mercy but rather to the irrational conclusions that must follow from anyone who imagines that “invincible ignorance” is in practice the norm for saving more souls than proper Catholic education and exercise of the faith. If “invincible ignorance” were the normative way to salvation then Christ would not have instructed us to teach now would He? The implications to Catholics here are that 800 Million Protestants can NOT in any degree ALL be considered “invincibly ignorant”. Hundreds of millions of souls are at substantial risk of damnation by being outside of the Catholic Church - just as there are about 4 billion non-Christians at risk of eternal damnation for not being converted to the Catholic Church. Note again. I have made no specific judgment on any single soul - what I have done is provoke reason with a sobering look at the large magnitude of potential numbers that are lost - exactly my intention here.

I have put forward cogent and rational thoughts about the absurdity in the underlying implications of ideas presented here about “invincible ignorance” that would necessitate it being a more effective means to attain salvation than would be the expansion of knowledge of the true apostolic Catholic Faith and teachings. I could just as easily counter that those here critical of my view are pretending to know God’s mind that He MUST grant through the Divine Mercy any arbitrary exceptions to the dogmas which have already been infallably declared as true by the Church.

God has the sovereign right to “show mercy to whom He shall show mercy”. But God is not at liberty to Change His Nature or to CHANGE His words or His teachings to save people who have sinned gravely and not repented our who have acted out of freewill to consciously reject Christ or Christ’s representatives (The Church). Christ’s plea to “forgive them father for they know not what they do” is apropos only to the degree that The Church does not bind on heaven and earth a person to their unforgiven sins and the degree that a person desires to turn away from their sins and repent. But the Church generally disallows the sacrament of repentance to any who are not formal Catholics. This leaves Protestants with the very difficult single option of forming “perfect contrition” for each occasion of grave post-baptismal sin and still leaves the necessity to repent (which would also require entering formally into the Catholic Church or at least by desire if impossible to do so).

God IS bound to His Word and His nature does not permit Him to contradict Himself - that would be a change of nature and violate all we know about Him. God has spoken very clearly on the matter through His Church - “there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church”. The only open area here is not knowing who God considers to be in the Catholic Church since the pews contain both practising and non-practising Catholics and many are not in formal membership due to recognition of Protestant Baptisms.

Further, Invincible Ignorance only mitigates fault it is NOT in its own right any guarantee of salvation. The Catechism word “MAY” (‘be saved’) is not a general permission rather its ONLY an assertion of the possibility (since nothing is impossible for God as long as it does not violate His nature) . At any rate Invincible Ignorance is not the normative way for salvation and that realization casts considerable doubt on non-Catholics who call themselves Christian but remain outside of the Catholic Church. Ergo not being the normative means of salvation means that this principal can not be sufficient to carry with even a remote degree of certainty that the 800 Million Protestants or anyone who dies with unforgiven and unrepentant grave sin gain heaven…

It is EXTREMELY risky to be in a condition of ignorance (ref. the Hosea verse I quoted and others of St. Paul’s’) OR a “cultural Catholic” who is not well catechised and not embraced their faith and never really breaks out of the habit of grave sin. I will grant that being a Protestant is better than being a non-Christian. But its still a weak and vulnerable faith since Protestantism with its varying degrees of truth LACKS important sacraments and sacramental spiritual authority (e.g. NO: Sacrament of Repentance, Communion and Last Rites) essential to keeping one’s batismal grace.

Do you see my point? Invincible Ignorance does NOT impute a condition of exemption from the moral conscience nor does anyone gain heaven by being lucky to be ignorant.

I had a lot more to say - but this is getting quite long so I am ending it here:

James

 

[aspirant]

If the comment is vicariously directed at me

It is directed to any people to whom it might apply. If you are not one of them, you’re not one of them.

my complaint was against the absurd logic that a non-repentant grave sinner could be shown mercy without repenting

I would agree that no sinner can be saved without repenting. Fortunately, one can repent without explicit or complete knowledge of the Gospel, which is why the Church teaches it is possible even for non-Catholics to be saved by Christ through the graces given the Church. Divine Providence, the Council Fathers taught, does not deny “the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.”

In your attempts at pandering to those who insist in staying outside of the Catholic Church by presuming on God’s Mercy

Where have I attempted anything of the sort?

The Prodigal’s Son parable has little bearing on the discussion at hand since Protestants REMAIN in seperation from The Church.

Many Protestants do not know that the Catholic Church is necessary. I was once one of them myself. Whether their ignorance is culpable only God can judge, certainly not us. For this reason we both strive to make the fullness of the Gospel known and hope for the salvation of all.

 

[dz102789]

It is directed to any people to whom it might apply. If you are not one of them, you’re not one of them.

I would agree that no sinner can be saved without repenting. Fortunately, one can repent without explicit or complete knowledge of the Gospel, which is why the Church teaches it is possible even for non-Catholics to be saved by Christ through the graces given the Church. Divine Providence, the Council Fathers taught, does not deny “the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.”

Where have I attempted anything of the sort?

Many Protestants do not know that the Catholic Church is necessary. I was once one of them myself. Whether their ignorance is culpable only God can judge, certainly not us. For this reason we both strive to make the fullness of the Gospel known and hope for the salvation of all.

I totally agree with you. I also want to add something that I think James does not understand. You cannot “hide” behind invincible ignorance, and salvation for someone who is invincibly ignorant is in no way unjust or a cop-out. Invincible Ignorance is not intentional (feigned ignorance as it is called in the CCC), rather it is a genuine inability to not recognize or to not be presented with the truth.

 

[aspirant]

You cannot “hide” behind invincible ignorance… Invincible Ignorance is not intentional (feigned ignorance as it is called in the CCC), rather it is a genuine inability to recognize or to not be presented with the truth.

Yes.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I totally agree with you. I also want to add something that I think James does not understand. You cannot “hide” behind invincible ignorance, and salvation for someone who is invincibly ignorant is in no way unjust or a cop-out. Invincible Ignorance is not intentional (feigned ignorance as it is called in the CCC), rather it is a genuine inability to not recognize or to not be presented with the truth.

Nope - I do understand that one can not hide behind invincible ignorance when it comes to God. I have said already that “God is not mocked”. The PROBLEM is that PEOPLE are IRRATIONAL, immature, intellectually dishonest and WILL TRY to hide behind invincible ignorance (to their own destruction) if we Catholics continue to pander this area and present the concept too softly. We NEED to shake people out of their false comfort zones and explain to them very firmly and very energetically that just mere disbelief in the Catholic truth is INSUFFICIENT. It’s not a matter of a good sales job. No one ran after the disciples in John 6:66 who turned their back on Christ’s real-presence teachings and asked them “didn’t you understand I was not kidding”? Nope - Jesus NEVER begged anyone to follow Him once they rejected His teachings - they made their choices and Jesus has told us that His words and their rejection of them would condemn them. We can take Jesus at His word. REJECTION is REJECTION. Just because someone was not “SOLD” using the best sales and presentation techniques in a free 6 week seminar with advanced audio-video tools to make the case does not gain anyone who rejects Christ an excuse viz “invincible ignorance”. Mentally impaired is a different story though.

I am sorry to say that some of you seem to be slanted in your reasoning to believe that MOST EVERYONE on the planet who is not Catholic is by definition “invincibly ignorant” for not being Catholic.

Time to take off the rose colored glasses of liberalism. Too many people now either don’t believe Hell is real or they imagine that God being all loving would not condemn anyone to hell for disobedience except for who are so evil that they are inhuman. WRONG. There are no doubt plenty of ostensibly polite and civil people in hell who’s worst offense to humanity was driving 10 mph over the speed-limit but who offended God eternally by rejecting Jesus and/or His Church or who slandered the true faith by parroting old polemics.

This kind of thinking is all wrong headed and flies in the face of scripture as well as well vetted and approved private revelation (e.g. Fatima) that speaks of millions falling into hell like snowflake. And as others have already mentioned and which I repeat Jesus spoke MORE often about hell than he did about anything else. How much more explicit can he be? Shall we call Jesus an “alarmist” and make him into an insincere sinner?

*Mat 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Luke 13:28-33 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 “Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 “Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27 and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ 28 “In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

First Secret of Fatima: The sight of multitudes of souls falling into Hell-----like snowflakes, Lucy said-----because there was no one to pray and sacrifice for them.
And finally I want to ask you to quote me accurately and stop putting words I never said into my mouth. I never said that salvation for someone who is invincibly ignorant is unjust or a cop-out. What I said is that there is no just way that invincible ignorance is the normative way for salvation and that the principal means is only through the Catholic Church and the fullness of the Catholic teaching. But the way I am seeing some of you having difficulty correctly parsing my sentences I can certainly see how some here might want to imagine there are more saved by invincible ignorance and miscommunication. Some of you just don’t want to face the real possibility that hundreds of millions of non-Catholic “Christians” might not escape hell via “invincible ignorance” and that a “Close enough faith is good enough for government work and therefor for God too”. The temple Jews thought the same thing when they sacrificed 1st to Caesar and then to God to keep the secular peace but ended up getting slaughtered by their new secular Roman god.

James

 

[dz102789]

Nope - I do understand that one can not hide behind invincible ignorance when it comes to God. I have said already that “God is not mocked”. The PROBLEM is that PEOPLE are IRRATIONAL, immature, intellectually dishonest and WILL TRY to hide behind invincible ignorance (to their own destruction) if we Catholics continue to pander this area and present the concept too softly. We NEED to shake people out of their false comfort zones and explain to them very firmly and very energetically that just mere disbelief in the Catholic truth is INSUFFICIENT. It’s not a matter of a good sales job. No one ran after the disciples in John 6:66 who turned their back on Christ’s real-presence teachings and asked them “didn’t you understand I was not kidding”? Nope - Jesus NEVER begged anyone to follow Him once they rejected His teachings - they made their choices and Jesus has told us that His words and their rejection of them would condemn them. We can take Jesus at His word. REJECTION is REJECTION. Just because someone was not “SOLD” using the best sales and presentation techniques in a free 6 week seminar with advanced audio-video tools to make the case does not gain anyone who rejects Christ an excuse viz “invincible ignorance”. Mentally impaired is a different story though.

I am sorry to say that some of you seem to be slanted in your reasoning to believe that MOST EVERYONE on the planet who is not Catholic is by definition “invincibly ignorant” for not being Catholic.

Time to take off the rose colored glasses of liberalism. Too many people now either don’t believe Hell is real or they imagine that God being all loving would not condemn anyone to hell for disobedience except for who are so evil that they are inhuman. WRONG. There are no doubt plenty of ostensibly polite and civil people in hell who’s worst offense to humanity was driving 10 mph over the speed-limit but who offended God eternally by rejecting Jesus and/or His Church or who slandered the true faith by parroting old polemics.

This kind of thinking is all wrong headed and flies in the face of scripture as well as well vetted and approved private revelation (e.g. Fatima) that speaks of millions falling into hell like snowflake. And as others have already mentioned and which I repeat Jesus spoke MORE often about hell than he did about anything else. How much more explicit can he be? Shall we call Jesus an “alarmist” and make him into an insincere sinner?

*Mat 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Luke 13:28-33 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 “Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 “Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27 and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ 28 “In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

First Secret of Fatima: The sight of multitudes* of souls falling into Hell-----like snowflakes, Lucy said-----because there was no one to pray and sacrifice for them.

And finally I want to ask you to quote me accurately and stop putting words I never said into my mouth. I never said that salvation for someone who is invincibly ignorant is unjust or a cop-out. What I said is that there is no just way that invincible ignorance is the normative way for salvation and that the principal means is only through the Catholic Church and the fullness of the Catholic teaching. But the way I am seeing some of you having difficulty correctly parsing my sentences I can certainly see how some here might want to imagine there are more saved by invincible ignorance and miscommunication. Some of you just don’t want to face the real possibility that hundreds of millions of non-Catholic “Christians” might not escape hell via “invincible ignorance” and that a “Close enough faith is good enough for government work and therefor for God too”. The temple Jews thought the same thing when they sacrificed 1st to Caesar and then to God to keep the secular peace but ended up getting slaughtered by their new secular Roman god.

James

First of all James, I apologize if I misrepresented you in any way shape of form that was not my intention. Getting back to the discussion… Speaking of Scripture, I find it even more striking that Jesus criticized and condemned more severely the Scribes and Pharisees who were members of the “people of God” and yet he invited the sinners and gentiles. It seems that he did hold a higher standard and harsher judgment of those who were members of the people of God. I am not denying Hell or saying that people don’t go there, but come on, you are doing no help to Christ or his Church. Your message is devoid of love or wanting to understand others, rather it is full of fear.

 

[aspirant]

Speaking of Scripture, I find it even more striking that Jesus criticized and condemned more severely the Scribes and Pharisees who were members of the “people of God” and yet he invited the sinners and gentiles. It seems that he did hold a higher standard and harsher judgment of those who were members of the people of God.

To whom much is given, much will be required.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I am not denying Hell or saying that people don’t go there, but come on, you are doing no help to Christ or his Church. Your message is devoid of love or wanting to understand others, rather it is full of fear.

Bologna. You can disagree with what I say but I will not tolerate your personal ad-hominems against me to slander me. DE-PERSONALIZE THIS RIGHT NOW and start speaking objectively.to the topic and my points rather than to me personally and my character. Really, how dare you judge me as “devoid of love or desire to understand” or imagine you can singularly judge for Christ and His Church the merits or lack of same for my contributions to it. That is one the most blatantly bigoted and self-righteous statements I think I have heard here at CAF from a fellow Catholic. This renders your prior apology insincere and devoid of any meaning.

I have been very balanced and accurate with respect to the Catholic teaching - referencing a comprehensive list of CC paragraphs that relate to the subject matter. As for fear - you act like fear is a bad thing. But in fact a little bit of fear is good and will keep a person alert and alive and seeking the truth. It can also sober the senses to help overcome the stubbornness of human pride to resist orthodox teaching and imagine anything one wants. There is no love to be found in a false compassion or complacency that let’s people live comfortably in an error that can put another soul at severe risk of damnation. Pandering and soft peddling does no one any good.

*** Luke 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

---

I happen to agree with the other Protestant’s opinion that we Catholics need to be more forthright in the urgency to return to the Catholic Church if we really believe in the full teachings that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

For the record I am personally very concerned that many Protestants (and poorly catechized Catholics too) are falling into hell because they listen to just the sort of liberal and wussified neo-Christianity or as I call it the “love and lollipops” version of Christianity that you seem more than inclined to present. Ecumenical-ism is not about sitting around the campfire burning each other’s dogmatic marshmallows while holding hands and singing Kumbaya. We need to convert people and get them out of their comfort zones if we are to correct them.

Read your scripture. Christ was no wimp nor a dandy-boy who pandered at any time. He sweat, he got body odor from being out of doors all day teaching in the sun. He got angry and he severely chastised those who mislead others. He was gentle with the downtrodden and those who sincerely wanted to repent - but firm with those who challenged his teachings. He complained often about those who refused to see even when he made His teachings clear or when those healed did not return to offer thanks.

I see no sort of “soft love” teaching in the early Church history either - but I am not expert in it. Early Christians were in a pure survival mode and put their lives on the line for their faith daily. They loved each other but demanded discipline in the rank and file and would not tolerate evil or heretical ideas within their ranks. People who backslid into sin had to do public penance in humiliating sackcloth and ashes for months and years to regain full communion. Recall that St. Peter slew Ananias & his wife Sapphira with the Fear of The Lord for for not giving the full price of their sold property to the Church ( Acts 5:1-11). Tough Love. Early Christians refused to compromise the truth for the sake of pandering to the errors of Roman paganism or the old Judaic teachings. Love yes - but a lot of tough love mixed in with the agape fests.

Reset and go on from here…

James

 

[dz102789]

Bologna. You can disagree with what I say but I will not tolerate your personal ad-hominems against me to slander me. DE-PERSONALIZE THIS RIGHT NOW and start speaking objectively.to the topic and my points rather than to me personally and my character. Really, how dare you judge me as “devoid of love or desire to understand” or imagine you can singularly judge for Christ and His Church the merits or lack of same for my contributions to it. That is one the most blatantly bigoted and self-righteous statements I think I have heard here at CAF from a fellow Catholic. This renders your prior apology insincere and devoid of any meaning.

I have been very balanced and accurate with respect to the Catholic teaching - referencing a comprehensive list of CC paragraphs that relate to the subject matter. As for fear - you act like fear is a bad thing. But in fact a little bit of fear is good and will keep a person alert and alive and seeking the truth. It can also sober the senses to help overcome the stubbornness of human pride to resist orthodox teaching and imagine anything one wants. There is no love to be found in a false compassion or complacency that let’s people live comfortably in an error that can put another soul at severe risk of damnation. Pandering and soft peddling does no one any good.

*** Luke 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

---

I happen to agree with the other Protestant’s opinion that we Catholics need to be more forthright in the urgency to return to the Catholic Church if we really believe in the full teachings that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

For the record I am personally very concerned that many Protestants (and poorly catechized Catholics too) are falling into hell because they listen to just the sort of liberal and wussified neo-Christianity or as I call it the “love and lollipops” version of Christianity that you seem more than inclined to present. Ecumenical-ism is not about sitting around the campfire burning each other’s dogmatic marshmallows while holding hands and singing Kumbaya. We need to convert people and get them out of their comfort zones if we are to correct them.

Read your scripture. Christ was no wimp nor a dandy-boy who pandered at any time. He sweat, he got body odor from being out of doors all day teaching in the sun. He got angry and he severely chastised those who mislead others. He was gentle with the downtrodden and those who sincerely wanted to repent - but firm with those who challenged his teachings. He complained often about those who refused to see even when he made His teachings clear or when those healed did not return to offer thanks.

I see no sort of “soft love” teaching in the early Church history either - but I am not expert in it. Early Christians were in a pure survival mode and put their lives on the line for their faith daily. They loved each other but demanded discipline in the rank and file and would not tolerate evil or heretical ideas within their ranks. People who backslid into sin had to do public penance in humiliating sackcloth and ashes for months and years to regain full communion. Recall that St. Peter slew Ananias & his wife Sapphira with the Fear of The Lord for for not giving the full price of their sold property to the Church ( Acts 5:1-11). Tough Love. Early Christians refused to compromise the truth for the sake of pandering to the errors of Roman paganism or the old Judaic teachings. Love yes - but a lot of tough love mixed in with the agape fests.

Reset and go on from here…

James

James,

I really am not attacking you personally, I’m attacking your message. If It sounded like a personal attack it was not meant to be. I just believe the message that is being portrayed is doing no good for the Church and is not going to bring about conversion. I simply do not understand the message you are portraying. I do sincerely apologize if anything i said looked like a personal attack, it wasn’t meant to be. I will do my best to depersonalize my posts on this subject. Peace of Christ be with you brother, and please accept my sincerest apology for any way that I have offended you.

 

[CentralFLJames]

James,

I really am not attacking you personally, I’m attacking your message. If It sounded like a personal attack it was not meant to be. I just believe the message that is being portrayed is doing no good for the Church and is not going to bring about conversion. I simply do not understand the message you are portraying. I do sincerely apologize if anything i said looked like a personal attack, it wasn’t meant to be. I will do my best to depersonalize my posts on this subject. Peace of Christ be with you brother, and please accept my sincerest apology for any way that I have offended you.

Apology accepted.

If you are misreading my message let me state my intentions a final time.

My intended message with respect to answering the OP is simple. Catholics do not believe that all Protestants will go to hell anymore so than we believe that all non-Christians will go to hell. But we have to go deeper here since the OP limits the response to a simple yes or now and does not give an opportunity to express the full teaching nor give insights into the unchanging urgency in the need for Protestants and non-Christians to convert to the one apostolic Catholic faith.

No Catholic believes that all Protestants go to hell because that would deny the power and the discretion of God and limit Him only to the sacraments. But God gave us The Catholic Church and the sacraments for our benefit and NOT for the purpose of condeming anyone to hell. But we Catholics DO believe that the NORMATIVE way to gain salvation and eternal beatitude AND be ALL that God calls us to be and to receive our highest heavenly reward is to be in full life long communion with the Catholic Church and her teachings.

One has the opportunity to gain the highest graces and most rapid and perfect Christian maturity “to be all God calls us to be” (which is perfect and holy and Christlike - theosis) by being in full communion with Christ THROUGH His Church. Jesus desired that His Church (His Body) would be the means by which humanity would be nurtured, protected and grace indwelled. We are afterall “… a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people set apart.” --1 Peter 2:9. But we are ALSO a shining light of truth set on the hill for the peoples who are yet to join us as brothers - an example to draw the multitude to salvation. Those that experience that light from afar CAN AND DO benefit by basking in that light and CAN receive grace THROUGH the Church’s vast spiritual treasure who’s source is Christ Himself - present in the Eucharist and in each of those consecrated to Him and in good grace.

All that said, I personally caution that the catechism while teaching that somone who is not a formal member of the Catholic Church has by right of baptism a claim to the title “Christian” and the initial graces necessary for salvation through that baptism (which makes them Catholic and therefor imperfect members of The Catholic Church although many do not consciously know this) is at grave risk of disgracing themselves and never attaining salvation.

My second caution is that those who are imperfectly joined to the Catholic Church (esp. Protestants but also poorly catechized Catholics) are in grave danger of falling out of grace since they do not have the benefit of the sacraments nor the full apostolic teachings so necessary to form their consciences.

The going away message I would leave here is that the spiritual risk of remaining in an estranged or poorly developed communion with the Catholic Church (e.g. only via original baptism without benefit of Eucharist and the sacrament of repentance and full moral teaching etc.) is to fall away, become “disgraced” and not gain salvation at all. All it takes is as single grave sin and failure to repent each and every time one sins. No one is saved by a presumption of Mercy or by mere belief that one is saved. One is saved only by sanctifying grace which can only be know definitively by divine revelation, or by signal grace or by regular exercise of the Church’s sacraments (esp. sacrament of repentance and eucharist) and the Catholic disciplines.

Bottom line - all grace comes through Christ through the Catholic Church and none can escape salvation without grace and staying in grace. It is very difficult but not entirely impossible to remain in grace without being a formal and practising Catholic. The many and diverse Protestant “Faith Communities” have certain limited aspects of Christianity since they all derived from the Catholic Church but are ALL deficient, disordered and wounded in their separation and are hurting themselves by remaining estranged.

James

 

[rinnie]

I was reading other posts just seeing what I can learn about Catholicism and I found this in a post.

“The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation” - Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos

“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.” - Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” - 11th Session of the Council of Florence, under Pope Eugene IV

The Pope said to sum it up. Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church. There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. If you read scripture Jesus Christ tells you he is the Catholic Church.

Now back to the question at hand Catholics believe that many are going to hell. No matter what faith you are. If you reject God and do not follow his commands you are not getting in. Catholics not only say this, It is the word of God. But the teaching of the church is if you are Catholic and understand your faith and turn away from it your soul is in mortal danger. But it all comes to judgement day. For ANYONE to say anyone is going to hell is taking on the role of God. You cannot do that. Its Gods call, always was always will be!

 

[CentralFLJames]

For ANYONE to say anyone is going to hell is taking on the role of God. You cannot do that. Its Gods call, always was always will be!

Re-expressing it in the other positive way is to say “that NO ONE can judge others or themselves as going to heaven either”. All we can do is have a trembling hope & faith and never presume on God’s Mercy to definitively know with certainty.

James

 

[dz102789]

Apology accepted.

If you are misreading my message let me state my intentions a final time.

My intended message with respect to answering the OP is simple. Catholics do not believe that all Protestants will go to hell anymore so than we believe that all non-Christians will go to hell. But we have to go deeper here since the OP limits the response to a simple yes or now and does not give an opportunity to express the full teaching nor give insights into the unchanging urgency in the need for Protestants and non-Christians to convert to the one apostolic Catholic faith.

No Catholic believes that all Protestants go to hell because that would deny the power and the discretion of God and limit Him only to the sacraments. But God gave us The Catholic Church and the sacraments for our benefit and NOT for the purpose of condeming anyone to hell. But we Catholics DO believe that the NORMATIVE way to gain salvation and eternal beatitude AND be ALL that God calls us to be and to receive our highest heavenly reward is to be in full life long communion with the Catholic Church and her teachings.

One has the opportunity to gain the highest graces and most rapid and perfect Christian maturity “to be all God calls us to be” (which is perfect and holy and Christlike - theosis) by being in full communion with Christ THROUGH His Church. Jesus desired that His Church (His Body) would be the means by which humanity would be nurtured, protected and grace indwelled. We are afterall “… a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people set apart.” --1 Peter 2:9. But we are ALSO a shining light of truth set on the hill for the peoples who are yet to join us as brothers - an example to draw the multitude to salvation. Those that experience that light from afar CAN AND DO benefit by basking in that light and CAN receive grace THROUGH the Church’s vast spiritual treasure who’s source is Christ Himself - present in the Eucharist and in each of those consecrated to Him and in good grace.

All that said, I personally caution that the catechism while teaching that somone who is not a formal member of the Catholic Church has by right of baptism a claim to the title “Christian” and the initial graces necessary for salvation through that baptism (which makes them Catholic and therefor imperfect members of The Catholic Church although many do not consciously know this) is at grave risk of disgracing themselves and never attaining salvation.

My second caution is that those who are imperfectly joined to the Catholic Church (esp. Protestants but also poorly catechized Catholics) are in grave danger of falling out of grace since they do not have the benefit of the sacraments nor the full apostolic teachings so necessary to form their consciences.

The going away message I would leave here is that the spiritual risk of remaining in an estranged or poorly developed communion with the Catholic Church (e.g. only via original baptism without benefit of Eucharist and the sacrament of repentance and full moral teaching etc.) is to fall away, become “disgraced” and not gain salvation at all. All it takes is as single grave sin and failure to repent each and every time one sins. No one is saved by a presumption of Mercy or by mere belief that one is saved. One is saved only by sanctifying grace which can only be know definitively by divine revelation, or by signal grace or by regular exercise of the Church’s sacraments (esp. sacrament of repentance and eucharist) and the Catholic disciplines.

Bottom line - all grace comes through Christ through the Catholic Church and none can escape salvation without grace and staying in grace. It is very difficult but not entirely impossible to remain in grace without being a formal and practising Catholic. The many and diverse Protestant “Faith Communities” have certain limited aspects of Christianity since they all derived from the Catholic Church but are ALL deficient, disordered and wounded in their separation and are hurting themselves by remaining estranged.

James

James,

Thank you for your response. I agree with everything you said. I am glad to be clarified on your position.

In Christ,
Dave

 

[paul_c]

I’ve read through this with great interest. a few comments:

For those that want a God of mercy, we have one. He will allow any one the chance to repent and be saved, right up to the point of Death. No matter how evil one’s life has been, he will take us back if we sincerely repent of our sins and request his mercy.

For those that want a God of Justice, we have that too. When the Israelites turned from him during the Exodus, he allowed every one to die, except Joshua and Caleb. When the population of Sodom and Gommorah sinned gravely against God, he rained down fire and brimstone on them, allowing only Lot’s family to escape. In fact, he restarted the entire Earth with Noah. I’m sure that there were plenty of people in all these situations that complained it was unfair and that they would have repented had they known. But apparently, those execuses were insufficient. God knows exactly what we know and how much we love. There will be no hiding being excuses.

That said, I know a lot of very good people who are not Catholic and I do not wish them to be condemned. For those still living, I hope they find the church. For those who have passed on, I hope that they can at least get into Purgatory with heaven as an eventual guarantee. But I believe, as CentralFlJames does, that it does them a great disservice to tell them that its okay to stay separated from the Catholic Church, where they recieve the fullness of truth and the graces from the sacraments. For those who stated on this thread that they had been Catholic but now have separated themselves, I wholeheartedly ask them to revisit why they would make such a choice and come back home. You may not THINK you have separated yourself from God, but you have. You are turning your back on his real presence in the eucharist and demonstrating that having him within you is unimportant to you. The same goes for those lapsed Catholics that no longer go to mass. Can’t they see that by their actions, they are demonstrating by their priorities, their lack of love for Jesus. Hopefully, they will come to their senses.

 

[rinnie]

Re-expressing it in the other positive way is to say “that NO ONE can judge others or themselves as going to heaven either”. All we can do is have a trembling hope & faith and never presume on God’s Mercy to definitively know with certainty.

James

You got it CFJ. I am like St Paul trembling all the way. I figure if I can at least make it to purgatory I can fight my way in.

But a up lift on the matter.

We had this Priest from another country. This is what he said about death. He said as a Father or Mother how are you towards your kids when they do wrong and fail you. Do you not welcome them back time and time again no matter what. Of course we do, as much as our kids sin we still love them. And we always forgive and welcome them back home. He said don’t sell our dear Lord short. Take how much we love our kids and times that by the largest number you know, and thats how much more Love our Father has for us, All we can do is be kind, as honest as we can, Love one another and do the best we know how. Its not saying we will get in, but its a pretty good road to follow.

 

[Louemma]

The Pope said to sum it up. Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church. There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. If you read scripture Jesus Christ tells you he is the Catholic Church.

Now back to the question at hand Catholics believe that many are going to hell. No matter what faith you are. If you reject God and do not follow his commands you are not getting in. Catholics not only say this, It is the word of God. But the teaching of the church is if you are Catholic and understand your faith and turn away from it your soul is in mortal danger. But it all comes to judgement day. For ANYONE to say anyone is going to hell is taking on the role of God. You cannot do that. Its Gods call, always was always will be!

This right here is the problem.Jesus Christ is the son of God.Now we know through scripture Jesus is the way to eternal life.There are Catholics that have reached the ideal based upon the above post that if your not Catholic then you have no part of Jesus because Jesus is the Catholic Church.This is not in the scriptures.The scripture say all who profess Jesus as their Lord and savior will receive the Holy Spirit.That is a promise in the word of God,a promise of the Holy Spirit to all the believers.
I’m not Catholic,never stepped foot inside a Catholic Church and I am very much a part of the body of Christ because his Spirit lives in me.
I agree with you that God is the only one who can sat in judgement of a man because he searches the heart.For those who believe that the Catholic Church is Jesus then tell me"How well do the Catholics know their savior and I’m speaking of Jesus and not the Church he set up but Jesus himself that dwells in the hearts of all who believe.“All Who Believe”
Somewhere down the line somebody,somehow has misused their position and alot of people have been led astray from the truth.The sad part of this is if some believe Jesus is the Catholic church then are they really going to find the true and only way to heaven,are they ever going to have a personal relationship with the Lord?
Besides this,there is no scripture saying Jesus is the Catholic Church,unless scripture is twisted to fit.There will be false prophets that lead many astray.Now this is in scripture and this is most certainly true.False prophets will lead many to hell because they have taught false doctrine causing people to become deaf and blind,ears that don’t hear and eyes that can’t see that Jesus Christ is much,much more and limiting him to the Catholic belief as if Jesus is only there for those who are Catholic.This is like the Pharisees who thought God was only there for the Jews.And we all know that God is here for us all and this is why he sent his son Jesus to die for the sins of all.The Jews don’t like the ideal of sharing God and neither do the Catholics. So if the Catholics think Jesus is the Catholic Church,he is in the Catholic Church,or rather his Spirit but guess what his Spirit is in other churches that profess the name of Jesus.