Do Catholics teach that the world must be made Christian?

[Brendan_64]

Amos,

Your interest in Catholicism is very laudable, but without getting along to a Catholic Church and joining with the community their your interest is little more than an intellectual pursuit. Faith is not about intellectual discourse and philosophical discussion, it is about living the Gospel in communion with others.

Christmas is a great time for you to make a start on this. Get along to your local Catholic Church and speak to a priest. Talk to him and tell him you are interested.

 

[AmosTown]

Amos,

Your interest in Catholicism is very laudable, but without getting along to a Catholic Church and joining with the community their your interest is little more than an intellectual pursuit. Faith is not about intellectual discourse and philosophical discussion, it is about living the Gospel in communion with others.

Christmas is a great time for you to make a start on this. Get along to your local Catholic Church and speak to a priest. Talk to him and tell him you are interested.

Yes. I agree. It’s about living the Gospel in communion with the Apostles. Where is the Apostolic church of St. Peter? The closest thing I’ve found trappist monasteries, but where is the same teaching for a town, city, community of apostolic believers that are of Peter the apostle. Can you point me to a town or church that are apostolic Christians in the line of St. Peter?

The coptics of St. Mark seem to be very ancient in their practice and beliefs and close to the actual instructions of St. Mark. For example, Coptics fast 200+ days per year. That seems very strict. Peter’s church was very strict and of one heart and soul.

I’m married so being living as trappist monk is not an option. When I studied the early middle ages there is a pattern. The monks established the church in towns and villages and it seems to me that the christian rule of the lay people revolved around the Mass and the teaching that the faithful should live their lives as a sacrifice joined to the sacrifice of the Mass.

Where is a single apostolic catholic church community in the line of Peter that practices as the early Christians? :::

And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. Acts 4:32-35

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Well, the Church desires that all come to Christ…So, we put the Gospel out there and those who are predestined to hear it with open hearts do so. The rest, we keep working on - which is also why we carry this thread on.

That’s Calvinist. Are you a Calvinist?

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Where is a single apostolic catholic church community in the line of Peter that practices as the early Christians? :::

The Catholic Church is the ‘one, holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church’ of the creed. Either you accept that or you don’t. Which is it?

 

[Brendan_64]

Where is a single apostolic catholic church community in the line of Peter that practices as the early Christians? :::

But that’s not what it’s all about.

Christ formed one Church on Earth and the Catholic Church is that Church. Despite all it’s flaws, it is the apostolic Church with bishops and Pope tracing an unbroken line of succession to Peter.

But if you are looking for a perfection in terms of practice (or anything else for that matter) then you won’t find it in the Catholic Church. That isn’t what it’s about. We are a Church full of imperfect humans, a Church full of sinners, and we don’t quite get it right, but we are the Church that Christ formed on Earth, and all are welcome. So come and join us. Get yourself down to your local church and talk to the parish priest, don’t delay.

 

[AmosTown]

The Catholic Church is the ‘one, holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church’ of the creed. Either you accept that or you don’t. Which is it?

I’m not trying to be argumentative. I accept the Roman Catholic church’s apostolic success of bishops comes from Peter.

I am asking a sincere question: Where is a community of people living as one heart and one soul and laying all their possessions at the feet of the bishops as described in Acts 4:32-35?

Let me humbly ask another way. If you agree that Acts 4:32-35 is a true historic account of the church of St. Peter in Rome, at which point in time did the church depart from St. Peter’s rule?

Is such a time documented in the catholic church history?

 

[AmosTown]

But that’s not what it’s all about.

Christ formed one Church on Earth and the Catholic Church is that Church. Despite all it’s flaws, it is the apostolic Church with bishops and Pope tracing an unbroken line of succession to Peter.

But if you are looking for a perfection in terms of practice (or anything else for that matter) then you won’t find it in the Catholic Church. That isn’t what it’s about. We are a Church full of imperfect humans, a Church full of sinners, and we don’t quite get it right, but we are the Church that Christ formed on Earth, and all are welcome. So come and join us. Get yourself down to your local church and talk to the parish priest, don’t delay.

Dear Brendan,

As I’ve previously mentioned, I’m just trying to understand Catholicism in its earliest form.

Consider my journey along the lines of Protestant pastors that make a connection to Catholicism via a niche bible study. For example “The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth [Scott Hahn]” is primarily a study of the Mass in context of the book of Revelations.

Somewhere along the timeline of church history, one of the successors of Peter changed the requirement of laying all possessions at the feet of the bishop.

When did that change occur? Why did it happen?

 

[steve_b]

That’s great! That’s the attraction! That’s what I want, a social body of Jesus Christ church with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as the heartbeat of every town village and city in the world! The people live out the catholic religion by offering themselves ceaselessly in every thought action word deed in union with the Sacrifice of the Mass which is the covenant made in Christ’s Blood!

The world will become sanctified. People’s lives will become regulated according to the holy way and truth and life. One common heartbeat one breath. The apostolic religion is like a big life support breathing machine. That is Acts 2:44

C’mon catholics! You have the biggest church. Get your act together and organize and evangelize one way in which you live the Gospel.

Get your game on people!

When you become Catholic, I sense you’ll have the fire in your belly for the faith.

The number of Catholics not living the faith is legion in numbers. The number of Catholics who don’t know their faith is legion in numbers. That’s just fact. And that’s not okay. The amount of information available to Catholics from the Church so that people can learn the faith properly is avalanche in size. How many people avail themselves of this? Certainly not 100%.

I was listening to a news program yesterday on TV. 3 Catholics were being interviewed about about this “Duck Dynasty” issue. One being homosexual activity. 2 out of the 3 Catholics disagreed with Church teaching. That’s not okay. And they did this on an internationally syndicated news network which means a ton of viewers saw this spectacle.

Peter was inspired to teach the following to his fellow Catholics

1 Pet 1
13 Therefore gird up your minds, be sober, set your hope fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.
2 Pet 1
5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body,d] to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my bodye] will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

Catholics need to take this seriously.

 

[AmosTown]

When you become Catholic, I sense you’ll have the fire in your belly for the faith.
The number of Catholics not living the faith is legion in numbers. The number of Catholics who don’t know their faith is legion in numbers. That’s just fact. And that’s not okay. The amount of information available to Catholics from the Church so that people can learn the faith properly is avalanche in size. How many people avail themselves of this? Certainly not 100%.

I was listening to a news program yesterday on TV. 3 Catholics were being interviewed about about this “Duck Dynasty” issue. One being homosexual activity. 2 out of the 3 Catholics disagreed with Church teaching. That’s not okay. And they did this on an internationally syndicated news network which means a ton of viewers saw this spectacle.

Peter was inspired to teach the following to his fellow Catholics

1 Pet 1
13 Therefore gird up your minds, be sober, set your hope fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.
2 Pet 1
5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body,d] to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my bodye] will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

Catholics need to take this seriously.

Thanks for that brother!

One might imagine that in the time of the early church in Rome, the Roman people were very tolerant of other religions. I only say this because, like the Greeks, they had so many temples to so many gods.

Along come St. Peter and his Christians with their ‘on fire’ community of God. They reject and renounce the “king money” of wealth, opulence, power of all that is “Roman”.

Christian behavior had to be a great threat to Roman leaders. After all, these Romans had this way of controlling society through love of money and taxation. See:

*And it came to pass that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that the whole world should be enrolled. * – Luke 2:1

**" the whole world should be enrolled". ??? **
Can you imagine!? How appalling that a hedonistic pagan and authoritarian anti Christian government forcing a people of faith and values into their system?

These faith on fire, community of renunciates of personal wealth, banded so closely they were as "one heart and one soul (Acts 4:32-35). Individuals would have no way to pay taxes or be controlled.

The Roman Catholic of Peter church did not bend to the oppressive, evil, God-less Roman government.

Rather, they are willing to die with Jesus Christ to spread the Way the Truth and the Life of Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

St. Peter’s One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church of Rome renounces, with one heart and soul, the world including the oppressive evil Roman government that tries to make its citizens accept sin.

St. Peter’s One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church forms its own society governed only by the Holy Laws of God and accepts, not Caesar, but only Jesus Christ as its King!

 

[steve_b]

Thanks for that brother!

One might imagine that in the time of the early church in Rome, the Roman people were very tolerant of other religions. I only say this because, like the Greeks, they had so many temples to so many gods.

Along come St. Peter and his Christians with their ‘on fire’ community of God. They reject and renounce the “king money” of wealth, opulence, power of all that is “Roman”.

Christian behavior had to be a great threat to Roman leaders. After all, these Romans had this way of controlling society through love of money and taxation. See:

*And it came to pass that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that the whole world should be enrolled. *-- Luke 2:1

**" the whole world should be enrolled". ??? **
Can you imagine!? How appalling that a hedonistic pagan and authoritarian anti Christian government forcing a people of faith and values into their system?

These faith on fire, community of renunciates of personal wealth, banded so closely they were as "one heart and one soul (Acts 4:32-35). Individuals would have no way to pay taxes or be controlled.

The Roman Catholic of Peter church did not bend to the oppressive, evil, God-less Roman government.

Rather, they are willing to die with Jesus Christ to spread the Way the Truth and the Life of Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

St. Peter’s One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church of Rome renounces, with one heart and soul, the world including the oppressive evil Roman government that tries to make its citizens accept sin.

St. Peter’s One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church forms its own society governed only by the Holy Laws of God and accepts, not Caesar, but only Jesus Christ as its King!

 

[po18guy]

That’s Calvinist. Are you a Calvinist?

Calvinism teaches double pre-destination, which the Catholic Church rejects.

 

[Brendan_64]

Calvinism teaches double pre-destination, which the Catholic Church rejects.

Nobody is predestined to hear the Gospel, or to do anything else for that matter. Yes God has an eternal plan of ‘predestination’ which includes every person, but each person is free to accept reject God’s plan for his salvation. This element of free-will for a person to accept or reject God’s plan is what Calvinists take issue with.

 

[po18guy]

Nobody is predestined to hear the Gospel, or to do anything else for that matter. Yes God has an eternal plan of ‘predestination’ which includes every person, but each person is free to accept reject God’s plan for his salvation. This element of free-will for a person to accept or reject God’s plan is what Calvinists take issue with.

Precisely. Calvin taught irresistible grace, which denies our free will and essentially makes us robots of God. If a soul pre-destined to heaven rebels and rejects God, will God force that unwilling soul into heaven?

Once you rebel against the Church and remove the lid from Pandora’s box, it is a doctrinal free-for-all. Never mind the contradictory verses in the scripture…

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Calvinism teaches double pre-destination, which the Catholic Church rejects.

The Church teaches we have free will. No room for Calvinist preD, single or double.

Predestination rises from God’s foreknowledge of our actions and behavior.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

I’m not trying to be argumentative. I accept the Roman Catholic church’s apostolic success of bishops comes from Peter.

Papal authority comes through Peter. Apostolic succession came from the line of each of the Apostles.

I am asking a sincere question: Where is a community of people living as one heart and one soul and laying all their possessions at the feet of the bishops as described in Acts 4:32-35?

No such community exists. The notion that hundreds or thousands or millions will line up to lay all they have at the feet of the local bishop is risible. As I said, your expectations are unrealistic.

 

[po18guy]

The Church teaches we have free will. No room for Calvinist preD, single or double.

Predestination rises from God’s foreknowledge of our actions and behavior.

Before we are derailed too seriously, I must point out that you have somehow associated Calvin with all of this. See Catechism sections 257, 600, 1007, 2012, 2782 and 2823. If the Church did not teach predestination, then is is possible that the Blessed Virgin Mary could have gone to hell. Does that sound right?

 

[PeaceInChrist]

The Church teaches we have free will. No room for Calvinist preD, single or double.

Predestination rises from God’s foreknowledge of our actions and behavior.

This is false. Catholic doctrine distinguishes between God’s foreknowledge and predestination. To limit it to foreknowledge is not Catholic doctrine.

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Traditional Catholic theology on predestination is actually closer to Calvinism than many think, but obviously the Calvnists go too far by proclaiming God makes people specifically to go to hell, while, generally, Thomistic predestination has God simply pass over the reprobate and let them die in sin, while predestining the elect to glory and giving them the grace required for their salvation (sufficient vs efficacious grace).

One may also hold to molinism, which states that God foresees our acceptance of His grace (“middle knowledge”), and gives efficacious grace to those who will accept it.

There are also two other accepted positions in Catholic predestination, but one must never limit it to foreknowledge alone.

therealpresence.org/archives/Grace/Grace_015.htm

Posted above is an excellent treatment on the subject.

FYI, always remember when learning about things like predestination that 1) there are multiple positions and the Church has not make a declaration as to which is correct. Rather, they have only declared on those that are heresies (Calvinism, pelagianism, ect). And 2) God loves you and desires you to be saved. Always keep that in mind when learning about predestination.