Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

[Marybeloved]

I agree with most of what you say. Of course there’s no doubt about Mohammad and his claim to prophethood or his “revelation”- They are all false. Their ultimate origin is the Devil whether he did it through demonic apparitions that Mohammed called “jibril” or through the normal temptations to pride and self-glorification, or whether Mohammed was just deluded.

Ok, I realize I went too far with this. I know this discussion involves Muslims as well. And this must seem deeply offensive. Apologies.

 

[twinc]

Muslims are infidels- they do not hold the true faith, but they are not pagans. By the very fact that people acknowledge the most basic truths of God (The same I’ve been repeating here repeatedly) they are not pagans. Do you know of any pagans who believe in the one invisible God?

Let’s consider: St Paul was talking to some real pagans about God (If the ancient Greeks were not pagans, I don’t know who is), he acknowledged that among the many alters to their numerous gods and idols, there was one with no idol dedicated to “the unknown God”.

St Paul, immediately recognized that in these manner, these bunch of idolaters/polytheists were worshiping the one true God without knowing it. So I ask, if these group of idolaters could worship the true God w/out even knowing it, how in all fairness, can we here say that Muslims who worship ONLY one invisible God, to whom they attribute all the qualities that WE ourselves attribute to him, attributes that we know can only belong to the one true God, How can we insist that those Greeks worshiped the True God, but Muslims worship something else?? I am no fan of Mohammed, but this would be both untrue and unjust.

yes but you seemed to imply that no matter which God of numerous Gods it could only be true God since there is only one God - so how about the Hindus and others - twinc

 

[Flyingg]

It differs by the way we view ‘same God’.

• If it’s by the Abrahamic origin of God, then muslims, jews and christians worship the same God.
• If it’s by the characteristics or the formation of this God, muslims and christians both believe in the one God but Catholics in trinity and a son of God, while muslims believe in no begotten son.
• If we take the qualities of God , both Christians and muslims believe God is total Good, just, powerful, ( but this can be very debatable ) exp: the 99 qualities and names of Allah- Allah=God in arabic.

 

[rain_bow]

It differs by the way we view ‘same God’.

• If it’s by the Abrahamic origin of God, then muslims, jews and christians worship the same God.

But is it right?Allah was the supreme God of Meccan Pagans. He had 3 daughters, Al-Lat, Manah and Al Ujjah. So how is it possible that Muslims even worship a God that has Abrahamic origin? Only because Mohammad copied Bible and wrote his new book?

BTW, what if any Greek Pagan preached a new religion by forging Bible and proclaimed that Zeus is the Supreme God?And there is no other God than Zeus and all prophets of OT and NT are the prophet of Zeus? Would you wrote the same thing like you wrote now? .

 

[jakasaki]

Re: Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

1

Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2

**I worship not that which ye worship, **

3

**Nor will ye worship that which I worship. **

4

**And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, **

5

**Nor will ye worship that which I worship. **

6

To you be your Way, and to me mine.

سورة الكافرون

Sura #109 | Makkah

searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=109&translator=2

This Sura above is clear -

**We do not worship what they worship. **

Allah denies The Holy Son of God - His Divinity - His Crucifixion - Death & Resurrection

 

[rain_bow]

Re: Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

1

Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2

**I worship not that which ye worship, **

3

**Nor will ye worship that which I worship. **

4

**And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, **

5

**Nor will ye worship that which I worship. **

6

To you be your Way, and to me mine.

سورة الكافرون

Sura #109 | Makkah

searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=109&translator=2

This Sura above is clear -

**We do not worship what they worship. **

Allah denies The Holy Son of God - His Divinity - His Crucifixion - Death & Resurrection

I think that the blue texts are enough to prove that Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God

 

[jakasaki]

I think that the blue texts are enough to prove that Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God

All I did was quote the koran - from an islamic koran site -

This was not posted from an anti-islam site…

If you go to:

searchtruth.com you will see it’s 100% islamic…

I read the koran from this site - I also read all of the tafsir’s & ahadiths…

Happy Saturday and be well dear friend

Best regards
Pam

Signing off for the day - I shall return tomorrow…!!!

 

[rain_bow]

All I did was quote the koran - from an islamic koran site -

This was not posted from an anti-islam site…

If you go to:

searchtruth.com you will see it’s 100% islamic…

I read the koran from this site - I also read all of the tafsir’s & ahadiths…

Happy Saturday and be well dear friend

Best regards
Pam

Signing off for the day - I shall return tomorrow…!!!

okk good night and happy Saturday too my dear friend. I will also sign out now, its late night here and I think I also should sleep. tomorrow I will read your link .

Best regards!

Rain_bow

 

[Flyingg]

But is it right?Allah was the supreme God of Meccan Pagans. He had 3 daughters, Al-Lat, Manah and Al Ujjah. So how is it possible that Muslims even worship a God that has Abrahamic origin? Only because Mohammad copied Bible and wrote his new book?

BTW, what if any Greek Pagan preached a new religion by forging Bible and proclaimed that Zeus is the Supreme God?And there is no other God than Zeus and all prophets of OT and NT are the prophet of Zeus? Would you wrote the same thing like you wrote now? .

I think each religion have some or lots of pagan’s origins and you might be right about your post but the dominant or the known part and belief in Islam is that Allah is the Abrahamic God , the god with old testament prophets and stories including Jesus from the NT as messiah and mohamed as last prophet. This is what muslims believe whether there is pagan origins or not, this is not the case.

 

[Tylervo]

Well it is the magisterium that said it was the same God after careful research prayer and meditation. Lets not let media driven rubbish go against the Churches teaching. To be honest based on some of the examples you suggest they are only ‘diametrically opposed’ in your mind, not in reality. I’m sorry you feel that way

 

[Marybeloved]

yes but you seemed to imply that no matter which God of numerous Gods it could only be true God since there is only one God - so how about the Hindus and others - twinc

Well, that’s not what I said, you must have misread me.

Hindus are polytheists, Buddhists don’t even have the concept of a God, new-agers just make up their religion as they go, Wiccans (lets not mention satanists) could very well be worshipping the devil or leaning dangerously close to it, nature worshipers (self explanatory) think that the created universe is God (as do new-agers and many of these groups), druidism, animism, agnostics, atheists, secular humanists etc etc:- (though I, actually think the Buddhists are the safest of the bunch, and regret that I can’t put them in a separate category)- These are what I think about when I think about the word “pagan”.

People who have no concept of the one invisible creator of the universe, who is personal (not some super-force that anyone can manipulate) to whom mankind is ultimately accountable; They have no idea of owing God as duty both worship and good morals and that failing in these is not just “bad karma” but sinning against him. Basically they have variations of concepts like: “I am my own god” “everything is god” “there is no god” “there are numerous gods-therefore no god” “god is someone/something I can manipulate through certain rituals to do what*** I*** want”. It amounts to an attempt at displacing God- That to me, is paganism.

 

[Marybeloved]

Re: Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

1

Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2

**I worship not that which ye worship, **

3

**Nor will ye worship that which I worship. **

4

**And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, **

5

**Nor will ye worship that which I worship. **

6

To you be your Way, and to me mine.

سورة الكافرون

Sura #109 | Makkah

searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=109&translator=2

This Sura above is clear -

**We do not worship what they worship. **

Allah denies The Holy Son of God - His Divinity - His Crucifixion - Death & Resurrection

Forgive me, but wasn’t Muhammad speaking to the Meccan Arabs (who were pagans) when he said this? Did he ever say such a thing to Jews and Christians?

 

[Marybeloved]

furthermore it seems to me and imho that the Christian God and Father of Jesus was/is,until rejected,the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob with no mention of Ishmael - so did God forget to mention this in all three Gospels and the Acts - twinc

Don’t you see? it doesn’t actually matter whether or not Ishmael was mentioned, or even if the Arabs are his descendants (I think that this is just something everyone assumes because it’s claimed by Muslims and the name Ishmael sounds Arab, it’s not been established as far as I’m concerned).

Let me ask this, Are we saying that unless God revealed himself,no man can worship the true God? For example,I’m not quite sure abut the whole story, but I heard this story about the ancient Chinese.

They believed that their emperor was King and high priest- But unlike other kingdoms in Asia, their emperor was not a demi-god. In fact he was a servant and merely a representative of a being they called “The Emperor of Heaven” and this heavenly emperor was the true King and owner of all China. He was one and all powerful. He was deeply feared and worshiped. No idols were made of him, sacrifices were offered to him in temples. Once a year, the king would travel to a special temple, very beautiful, with hundreds of priests, and offer worship (burnt sacrifice of some animal, I think wine also,not sure) and prostrate with everyone before his temple. He would ask for blessings for himself, his kingdom and his people. This Chinese “Heavenly emperor” was so deeply revered. The Chinese record a story of one emperor, who for some reason, decided to defy and blaspheme this heavenly emperor. He made an idol of him of wood and set it under a tree. He then had a sack of pig’s blood tied above the idol on a tree branch and began to shoot arrows at the sack. The pig blood would then pour onto the idol. A short while after, lightning struck him on a hunt (I think on the head??-Not sure) and killed him instantly. Everyone knew he was punished for blasphemy and no other emperor dared to do that again.

To me, I look at that and see clearly that these ancient Chinese, so much more than the Greek pagans St Paul encountered, knew and worshiped the true God. In fact, when Syriac Christians went to spread the faith their, by this time the ancient strict monotheistic religion had been mixed up with other polytheistic religions, yet the Christians encountering this Chinese deity immediately recognized that he had the characteristics of the true God and chose his name “Shang-di- Emperor of Heaven” to be the name used by Christians.

I think God is God. Not all humans got the privilege of the revelations of the Jews, but there were people, who by God’s grace knew the truth about the one creator of all the universe. It’s good to just recognize that.

 

[Marybeloved]

To me, I look at that and see clearly that these ancient Chinese, so much more than the Greek pagans St Paul encountered, knew and worshiped the true God. In fact, when Syriac Christians went to spread the faith their, by this time the ancient strict monotheistic religion had been mixed up with other polytheistic religions, yet the Christians encountering this Chinese deity immediately recognized that he had the characteristics of the true God and chose his name “Shang-di- Emperor of Heaven” to be the name used by Christians.

I found an excerpt of the prayers that the Emperor of China would say to Shang-Di.

‘To Thee, O mysteriously-working Maker, I look up in thought. … With the great ceremonies I reverently honor Thee. Thy servant, I am but a reed or willow; my heart is but that of an ant; yet have I received Thy favouring decree, appointing me to the government of the empire. I deeply cherish a sense of my ignorance and blindness, and am afraid, lest I prove unworthy of Thy great favours. Therefore will I observe all the rules and statutes, striving, insignificant as I am, to discharge my loyal duty. Far distant here, I look up to Thy heavenly palace. Come in Thy precious chariot to the altar. Thy servant, I bow my head to the earth reverently, expecting Thine abundant grace. … O that Thou wouldest vouchsafe to accept our offerings, and regard us, while thus we worship Thee, whose goodness is inexhaustible!

And also,

‘Of old in the beginning, there was the great chaos, without form and dark. The five elements [planets] had not begun to revolve, nor the sun and moon to shine. You, O Spiritual Sovereign, first divided the grosser parts from the purer. You made heaven. You made earth. You made man. All things with their reproducing power got their being’

And

***‘When Te [ShangDi], the Lord, had so decreed, He called into existence [originated] heaven, earth, and man. Between heaven and earth He separately placed in order men and things, all overspread by the heavens.’ ***

Now sure, there’s no mention of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob. Nothing about the Blessed Trinity. But do you honestly believe that these people did not worship the One True God?

 

[twinc]

I found an excerpt of the prayers that the Emperor of China would say to Shang-Di.

‘To Thee, O mysteriously-working Maker, I look up in thought. … With the great ceremonies I reverently honor Thee. Thy servant, I am but a reed or willow; my heart is but that of an ant; yet have I received Thy favouring decree, appointing me to the government of the empire. I deeply cherish a sense of my ignorance and blindness, and am afraid, lest I prove unworthy of Thy great favours. Therefore will I observe all the rules and statutes, striving, insignificant as I am, to discharge my loyal duty. Far distant here, I look up to Thy heavenly palace. Come in Thy precious chariot to the altar. Thy servant, I bow my head to the earth reverently, expecting Thine abundant grace. … O that Thou wouldest vouchsafe to accept our offerings, and regard us, while thus we worship Thee, whose goodness is inexhaustible!

And also,

‘Of old in the beginning, there was the great chaos, without form and dark. The five elements [planets] had not begun to revolve, nor the sun and moon to shine. You, O Spiritual Sovereign, first divided the grosser parts from the purer. You made heaven. You made earth. You made man. All things with their reproducing power got their being’

And

***‘When Te [ShangDi], the Lord, had so decreed, He called into existence [originated] heaven, earth, and man. Between heaven and earth He separately placed in order men and things, all overspread by the heavens.’ ***

Now sure, there’s no mention of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob. Nothing about the Blessed Trinity. But do you honestly believe that these people did not worship the One True God?

btw Brahma is the supreme Hindu God - not many seem to know this - in the surya namaskar they do not worship the sun,they worship the sun of God or the God of the sun - twinc

 

[twinc]

Additionally, the Muslims consider themselves descendants of Abraham, via the line of Ishmael, as opposed to Isaac, and while they do not worship Jesus or believe in the Holy Spirit, they do venerate Jesus as a prophet. Interestingly enough, the Virgin Mary is mentioned several times in the Koran, more than she is mentioned in the Gospels. More moderate Muslims historically have considered Christians and Jews “people of the book,” geopolitical issues and conflicts notwithstanding.

is that really so - so Gabriel was a mixed up and confused character -see Luke 1:35 and the Koran re the same annunciation and his other revelations - twinc

 

[Marybeloved]

btw Brahma is the supreme Hindu God - not many seem to know this - in the surya namaskar they do not worship the sun,they worship the sun of God or the God of the sun - twinc

I’ve read at Wikipedia that this Hindu god, Brahma is the Hindu creator god, but distinct from the Absolute being or Godhead called Brahman- So perhaps you were speaking of Brahman. Either way, I still consider the Hindus pagans, because apparently, this Brahman can be personal, or an impersonal force, but worst of all, he’s supposed to be the self of human beings- Which is that New Age mumbo jumbo that thinks we are all god- It’s not mono theism, it’s called monism, And it’s paganism. The idea that there’s really only one being/ only one true reality who is all things, or that all material things are illusions (not real) and only this one reality exists- This is Monism and like I said- Paganism.

For me there is a clear separation between the attitudes of monotheistic faiths and their adherents {Judaism, Christianity, Islam, The Samaritans/Samaritanism- (Another Abrahamic religion that is never mentioned), Zoroastrianism, The Ancient Chinese Religion I described, Bahaism, Sikhism} on one hand and other belief systems and their adherents (polytheism, monism, atheism, agnosticism, animism, nature worship etc) on the other.

For Monotheists, the underlying attitude seems to be - “I am not my own” “I have a maker to whom I owe all my being” “My Lord has absolute rights over me”. It’s a basic acknowledgment of the creature of his absolute and utter dependance on his Creator who is a distinct, benevolent and all- powerful. There’s an attitude of prostration before your maker whom you understand to have absolute rights over you and to whom you owe everything, to whom you are dependent for every good thing and to whom you are ultimate accountable for every choice and action. It basically declares- We need you, O God! It’s what should be man’s proper attitude of humility to God.

The other systems seem to attempt to make man his own master to some greater or lesser extent- To me, they are the remnants of the Babel religion, which sought to oust God.

Of course I believe Christianity to be the fullness of truth, I believe Jesus is “The way, The Truth and The Life”, but the journey to God cannot begin without that basic attitude of humility that is found in basic and fundamental monotheism.

 

[Flyingg]

Well, that’s not what I said, you must have misread me.

Hindus are polytheists, Buddhists don’t even have the concept of a God, new-agers just make up their religion as they go, Wiccans (lets not mention satanists) could very well be worshipping the devil or leaning dangerously close to it, nature worshipers (self explanatory) think that the created universe is God (as do new-agers and many of these groups), druidism, animism, agnostics, atheists, secular humanists etc etc:- (though I, actually think the Buddhists are the safest of the bunch, and regret that I can’t put them in a separate category)- These are what I think about when I think about the word “pagan”.

People who have no concept of the one invisible creator of the universe, who is personal (not some super-force that anyone can manipulate) to whom mankind is ultimately accountable; They have no idea of owing God as duty both worship and good morals and that failing in these is not just “bad karma” but sinning against him. Basically they have variations of concepts like: “I am my own god” “everything is god” “there is no god” “there are numerous gods-therefore no god” “god is someone/something I can manipulate through certain rituals to do what*** I*** want”. It amounts to an attempt at displacing God- That to me, is paganism.

How ‘‘there is no god’’ or ‘’ Everything is god’’ is paganism? So every belief is pagan exept the belief in one personal god (YAHWH)? It doesn’t make sense.

 

[Marybeloved]

How ‘‘there is no god’’ or ‘’ Everything is god’’ is paganism? So every belief is pagan exept the belief in one personal god (YAHWH)? It doesn’t make sense.

See my post #137,right above yours to understanding my thinking.

I believe basic and fundamental monotheism is the only way the creature acknowledges his complete and utter dependence on God. Atheism completely rejects God as does agnosticism to some lesser extent. Monism (We are all god) seems to attempt to depend on the self (by declaring that we ourselves are god- so in reality we depend on ourselves). Monotheism depends on an other (not me) who is completely all powerful (God) and good (not some evil spirit). It’s depending entirely on another which our rebellious wills try to resist since the fall of Adam and the tower of Babel. But it’s just my view.

 

[Flyingg]

Monotheism depends on an other (not me) who is completely all powerful (God) and good (not some evil spirit). It’s depending entirely on another which our rebellious wills try to resist since the fall of Adam and the tower of Babel. But it’s just my view.

As you said, it’s just a view because I don’t know how much is true to consider everything as pagan except monotheism.