Do Crosses at Catholic U Violate "Human Rights" of Muslim Students?

[Ridgerunner]

This may all be true in other situations, but that’s not the subject of this news article nor is it the case at Catholic University of America.

We know nothing of the sort, of course. At this point, all we know are these things:

1. This lawyer, Banzhaf, has brought this discrimination complaint, supposedly on behalf of Muslim students at CU.
2. He alleges two points of discrimination:
   A. That a Muslim group tried to get official recognition on campus, but that it was denied because of CU’s belief about its ties to the Muslim Brotherhood.
   B. Muslims do not have their own worship space on campus, unadorned with Christian symbols.
3. The point of this thread seems to be to persuade Catholics that the assault on CU is in no way supported, financed or directed by Muslims; students or otherwise.

Since nobody on here really knows whether, to what degree, or by whom any Muslims are involved, the whole premises of the thread is simply without foundation, and one has to wonder why it was even started.

 

[JReducation]

We know nothing of the sort, of course. At this point, all we know are these things:

1. This lawyer, Banzhaf, has brought this discrimination complaint, supposedly on behalf of Muslim students at CU.
2. He alleges two points of discrimination:
   A. That a Muslim group tried to get official recognition on campus, but that it was denied because of CU’s belief about its ties to the Muslim Brotherhood.
   B. Muslims do not have their own worship space on campus, unadorned with Christian symbols.
3. The point of this thread seems to be to persuade Catholics that the assault on CU is in no way supported, financed or directed by Muslims; students or otherwise.

Since nobody on here really knows whether, to what degree, or by whom any Muslims are involved, the whole premises of the thread is simply without foundation, and one has to wonder why it was even started.

There was a press statement by the President of Catholic University that said that the Muslim students at the university were not involved in this. Unfortunately, the link to it is gone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[markomalley]

There was a press statement by the President of Catholic University that said that the Muslim students at the university were not involved in this. Unfortunately, the link to it is gone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Here is a thread around a CUA newspaper that covers that subject.

 

[JReducation]

Here is a thread around a CUA newspaper that covers that subject.

This student’s statement was confirmed by the president of the university. The university has said that it has never received a request or a complaint from the Muslims students.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Ridgerunner]

Here is a thread around a CUA newspaper that covers that subject.

No it doesn’t. It’s the hearsay-on-hearsay statement of one guy. Proves nothing.

 

[Ridgerunner]

This student’s statement was confirmed by the president of the university. The university has said that it has never received a request or a complaint from the Muslims students.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

On both points? In other words, the president of the university says the university never received a request for recognition of a Muslm student organization either? Quote him through a source that can be verified.

Actually, the university president never confirmed either point, at least not in any source anybody has quoted so far. What he said in those sources was that he believe Muslim students were being used as “pawns” in this campaign. It was not explained further.

The problem with this thread and similar threads is that it seems to represent an attempt to dissasociate Muslims from this lawyers’ complaints. Do it if you’re able, but nobody has done it so far.

In the meantime, in the face of example after example of Muslim aggressiveness toward the west and toward Christianity generally, those who want to persuade that this is not an example of the same thing have a burden of proving it. One hearsay-on-hearsay statement by one person doesn’t do that.

 

[Sandy_Mooney_B]

No… This is a Catholic College. They have a choice to attend or not attend. Transfer this negative energy in their behalf to form their own college if they do not want to attend this one. Sandy Mooney B

 

[markomalley]

This student’s statement was confirmed by the president of the university. The university has said that it has never received a request or a complaint from the Muslims students.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I’m out of this thread. It is apparent that people here despise individual Muslims more than hack trip-and-fall lawyers.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m out of this thread. It is apparent that people here despise individual Muslims more than hack trip-and-fall lawyers.

Absolutely wrong. I have friends who are Muslims; from Palestine, no less. Listen to them very long and you won’t whitewash some of the negative aspects of Islam. One of my friends came within inches of being killed in that wedding blast in Jordan, and has NO illusions about the dark side of Islam.

I guess I can understand someone who is ultra-concerned that Catholics on CAF might think the CU thing typical of Muslims. Nobody here said that. What I have said all along is that concluding that NO Muslims connected with CU have anything to do with this lawyer’s complaints is without foundation. One student’s sweeping generalization is not proof of anything. Nor has anyone so much as commented on the other of this lawyer’s points about denial of recognition on campus of the suspect Muslim organization.

And so, with the above post, those who want to see more than a one-person assertion about both complaint contentions, are condemned with the sweeping generalization the thread was instituted to prevent. Truly remarkable.

 

[JReducation]

On both points? In other words, the president of the university says the university never received a request for recognition of a Muslm student organization either? Quote him through a source that can be verified.

Actually, the university president never confirmed either point, at least not in any source anybody has quoted so far. What he said in those sources was that he believe Muslim students were being used as “pawns” in this campaign. It was not explained further.

The problem with this thread and similar threads is that it seems to represent an attempt to dissasociate Muslims from this lawyers’ complaints. Do it if you’re able, but nobody has done it so far.

In the meantime, in the face of example after example of Muslim aggressiveness toward the west and toward Christianity generally, those who want to persuade that this is not an example of the same thing have a burden of proving it. One hearsay-on-hearsay statement by one person doesn’t do that.

You seem to have an agenda here, to find a guilty Muslim in this issue. The fact is that this has not been proven. It is not up to the rest of us to prove that the Muslim students are innocent. The law has always been, “Innocent until proven guilty.”

There is no evidence that the Muslim students at Catholic University have anything to do with this lawyer.

The University President did say that they have received no complaints from Muslim students.

The fact is that no Muslim student at Catholic University has registered a complaint with the University about the exercise of their religion on campus. And today we learned from an article in the Washington Post that Mr. Banzhaf himself has not received any complaints from our Muslim students

washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/catholic-u-responds-to-lawsuit-charging-muslim-discrimination/2011/10/29/gIQAd1XmZM_blog.html

The lawyer himself admits that he received no complaints from Muslim students

The details of that situation were not clear Thursday, but professor John Banzhaf said he filed the complaint with the city based on the article and had not received any complaints from Muslim students.

washingtonpost.com/local/cu-sued-over-muslim-worship/2011/10/27/gIQAidsMNM_story.html

There is nothing here that links Muslim students to this lawyer. Even if only one Muslim student approached the lawyer, he or she does not represent the Muslim student population at the university, which is pretty big. However, as you can see from the lawyer himself, he was not approached. This is his initiative alone. Until proven otherwise, it is unfair to assume that these students are guilty. Such an assumption would be contrary to American jurisprudence and contrary to the Catholic Church’s social teachings.

Even if they did ask, the Church recognizes their right to ask under Nostra Aetate. That does not mean that the Church commits herself to grant the request.

The question about a Muslim Student Association was settled a while back. The argument was made by a reporter that Catholic University has a Jewish Student Association. The difference is that Judaism is both a religion and a culture. Many Jews are non-believers. There are also Catholic Jews, sometimes called Hebrew Catholics. They would not be excluded. The university has many ethnic associations: Black Student Association, Hispanic Student Association, etc. A Muslim Association would not represent a particular ethnic group, nor would it provide students an opportunity to learn something about a specific culture, because Islam is like Christianity. It spans across many cultures from Asian to American.

However, even the lawyer in this case, never claimed to have been approached over this issue. It appears that the students made the request. It was denied and the university gave another suggestion. The suggestion was an Arab Student Association or a Middle Eastern Student Association. Either would represent a cultural group, not one particular religious group.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Ridgerunner]

You seem to have an agenda here, to find a guilty Muslim in this issue. The fact is that this has not been proven. It is not up to the rest of us to prove that the Muslim students are innocent. The law has always been, “Innocent until proven guilty.”

There is no evidence that the Muslim students at Catholic University have anything to do with this lawyer.

The University President did say that they have received no complaints from Muslim students.

The fact is that no Muslim student at Catholic University has registered a complaint with the University about the exercise of their religion on campus. And today we learned from an article in the Washington Post that Mr. Banzhaf himself has not received any complaints from our Muslim students

washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/catholic-u-responds-to-lawsuit-charging-muslim-discrimination/2011/10/29/gIQAd1XmZM_blog.html

The lawyer himself admits that he received no complaints from Muslim students

The details of that situation were not clear Thursday, but professor John Banzhaf said he filed the complaint with the city based on the article and had not received any complaints from Muslim students.

washingtonpost.com/local/cu-sued-over-muslim-worship/2011/10/27/gIQAidsMNM_story.html

There is nothing here that links Muslim students to this lawyer. Even if only one Muslim student approached the lawyer, he or she does not represent the Muslim student population at the university, which is pretty big. However, as you can see from the lawyer himself, he was not approached. This is his initiative alone. Until proven otherwise, it is unfair to assume that these students are guilty. Such an assumption would be contrary to American jurisprudence and contrary to the Catholic Church’s social teachings.

Even if they did ask, the Church recognizes their right to ask under Nostra Aetate. That does not mean that the Church commits herself to grant the request.

The question about a Muslim Student Association was settled a while back. The argument was made by a reporter that Catholic University has a Jewish Student Association. The difference is that Judaism is both a religion and a culture. Many Jews are non-believers. There are also Catholic Jews, sometimes called Hebrew Catholics. They would not be excluded. The university has many ethnic associations: Black Student Association, Hispanic Student Association, etc. A Muslim Association would not represent a particular ethnic group, nor would it provide students an opportunity to learn something about a specific culture, because Islam is like Christianity. It spans across many cultures from Asian to American.

However, even the lawyer in this case, never claimed to have been approached over this issue. It appears that the students made the request. It was denied and the university gave another suggestion. The suggestion was an Arab Student Association or a Middle Eastern Student Association. Either would represent a cultural group, not one particular religious group.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I have no such agenda. I do, however, have a problem with making unwarranted assumptions based on little or no information, and making assertions as if they were indisputable facts.

The Washington Post article does not say what you say it does, by the way. Read it carefully. It did, of course, publish the (yes, mildly expressed) disappointment of a Muslim student on the issue of the recognition of the Muslim student group. So it isn’t as if no Muslim ever “went public” about it.

When all of this unfolds, the informational base will be better.

 

[JReducation]

I have no such agenda. I do, however, have a problem with making unwarranted assumptions based on little or no information, and making assertions as if they were indisputable facts.

The Washington Post article does not say what you say it does, by the way. Read it carefully. It did, of course, publish the (yes, mildly expressed) disappointment of a Muslim student on the issue of the recognition of the Muslim student group. So it isn’t as if no Muslim ever “went public” about it.

When all of this unfolds, the informational base will be better.

Until more comes out, these students are innocent until proven guilty. There is nothing connecting them to this lawyer and we should not make such an assumption unless it actually comes up.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Fabrizet]

I go to a catholic university and I never never once heard a muslim complain about the crosses and crucifixes here.

 

[jasonjessica09]

This whole situation is a reflection of the media more than anything. One just one wacko Muslim complains and the whole media reports it. This done to discriminate Christianity of course.

In the name of tolerance and claiming unfairness, the lamestream media are the ones who are full of bigotry.

 

[agnes_therese]

What I have said all along is that concluding that NO Muslims connected with CU have anything to do with this lawyer’s complaints is without foundation. One student’s sweeping generalization is not proof of anything.

I guess you don’t believe the lawyer himself, either.
Banzhaf admitted as much in an email to The Christian Post. He wrote, “At this point, the complaint is filed solely and only in my name.” The online blog for The Blaze says, “Banzhaf sent a letter to the editor of the school’s newspaper soliciting complainants on September 22, yet readily admits that none have signed on to his case against the school.”

 

[Ridgerunner]

Until more comes out, these students are innocent until proven guilty. There is nothing connecting them to this lawyer and we should not make such an assumption unless it actually comes up.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

“Innocent until proven guilty”??? This is not a criminal trial. There is no “innocent” or “guilty” to it. And I agree with you that no assumptions should be made until the facts come out in detail, if they ever do. That has been my point all along.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ridgerunner;8573429:

What I have said all along is that concluding that NO Muslims connected with CU have anything to do with this lawyer’s complaints is without foundation. One student’s sweeping generalization is not proof of anything.

I guess you don’t believe the lawyer himself, either.
Banzhaf admitted as much in an email to The Christian Post. He wrote, “At this point, the complaint is filed solely and only in my name.” The online blog for The Blaze says, “Banzhaf sent a letter to the editor of the school’s newspaper soliciting complainants on September 22, yet readily admits that none have signed on to his case against the school.”

christianpost.com/news/muslim-students-not-behind-complaint-against-catholic-university-59796/

So far, posters in here have called Banzhaf the villain in the piece. So, I’m supposed to believe him?

Besides, the quote you have here only says he filed the complaint in his name, and that none have “signed on” to his case. That only means no one has joined as an official party to the complaint. It does not address whether there were any other interested or supporting parties.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Excellent idea! It’s precisely what I have been saying all along. We should make no assumptions one way or the other. And why? Because none of us can possibly know any more facts about the moving parties than Banzhaf has disclosed.

 

[JReducation]

Excellent idea! It’s precisely what I have been saying all along. We should make no assumptions one way or the other. And why? Because none of us can possibly know any more facts about the moving parties than Banzhaf has disclosed.

No, what you’re doing is outright immoral. You’re on a campaign to impugn these kids without any reason to do so. To deny the possibility that these kids are innocent, because of your beliefs about Muslims is bigotry at its finest. That is not Catholic.

The Church does not deal with people this way. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Everyone is deserving of their good name. These kids are no exception. Even if one or two jump on this wagon, it does not make a statement about an entire group of people.

This is the same propaganda that extremists use on the other side of the fence. When something goes wrong, they don’t rest until they find any excuse to condemn the entire Western world for the faults of a few.

It is unfair when they do it to us and when we do it to them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Robert_Bay]

Good place to close the thread