Do Eastern Catholics accept the filioque?

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The Orthodox feel that filioque (as commonly understood in the Latin church) is false in itself, but at best was an unauthorized addition–something that it is felt only an ecumenical council can make.

A comparison can be drawn with Justinian’s wanting the Creed to refer to Mary as “ever-virgin”–something that is true, but again, the bishops objected to changing the Creed. (Hence, Justinian composed the hymn Only-begotten Son.)

From the Father through the Son–yes, the fathers taught that, and yes, I believe it–but the text of the Ecumenical Symbol should not be tampered with.
 
Imprimateur is not guarantee of non-error nor infallibility, only of being generally sound according to the granter thereof.

The 1909-1917 imprints have a number of errors. Otherwise, the 1956 would not have been needed.

And further, it is not a magisterial document, therefore magisterial infallibility doesn’t apply.
And the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Second council of Lyons (1274), were not infallible also?
The Catholic encyclopedia article on the filioque was printed with the approval of the bishop and is therefore part of ordinary magisterium of the Catholic church, is it not? Your statement was"If you were taught differently, Bobzills, your catechist’s instruction is the questionable item." But then anyone who believed the Catholic encyclopedia, or the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Second council of Lyons (1274), were misled, is that your statement? The Catholic encyclopedia article clearly says that it is an error to deny the the Filioque, or the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and Son.
 
Why doesn’t the creed read per filium?
If you have kept up with all the explanations (if not that’s fine), it is because the Latin procedit in the Latin version of the Creed fulfills the same purpose. IOW,
ekporeusai from the Father through the Son” =
"procedit from the Father and the Son.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
If there was some Latin word perfectly equivalent to ekporeusai, then that Latin word would be used with per filium.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
And the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Second council of Lyons (1274), were not infallible also?
Do you have the texts of the Fourth Lateran and the Lyons Council for us to peruse?

The whole problem is the term “double procession.” My question is, did the Councils use the exact same terminology?
The Catholic encyclopedia article on the filioque was printed with the approval of the bishop and is therefore part of ordinary magisterium of the Catholic church, is it not? Your statement was"If you were taught differently, Bobzills, your catechist’s instruction is the questionable item." But then anyone who believed the Catholic encyclopedia, or the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Second council of Lyons (1274), were misled, is that your statement? The Catholic encyclopedia article clearly says that it is an error to deny the the Filioque, or the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and Son.
Until you show us that the Councils used the term “double procession,” I’d hold off on your smart remarks and attempting to equate the Encyclopedia with the Councils. Otherwise, your comments have no merit.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Otherwise, your comments have no merit.
It is interesting that you say that an article which most likely comes under the ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church has no merit. As I recall, the article had the ecclesiastical approval of the bishop and as you know the teachings of a bishop come under the ordinary magisterium of the Catholic Church and these teachings do have merit for a faithful Catholic.
“The dogma of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from Father and Son as one Principle is directly opposed to the error that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father, not from the Son.”
“The rejection of the Filioque, or the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and Son, and the denial of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff constitute even today the principal errors of the Greek church.”
 
It is interesting that you say that an article which most likely comes under the ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church has no merit. As I recall, the article had the ecclesiastical approval of the bishop and as you know the teachings of a bishop come under the ordinary magisterium of the Catholic Church and these teachings do have merit for a faithful Catholic.
“The dogma of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from Father and Son as one Principle is directly opposed to the error that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father, not from the Son.”
“The rejection of the Filioque, or the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and Son, and the denial of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff constitute even today the principal errors of the Greek church.”
If “double procession” is understood to mean that there are two processions as opposed to a single procession, then it is wrong.

If it’s understood to mean that two Persons share a single procession, albeit differently (the Father is the Source, the Son is a participant) then it is correct.

Usually when the term “double procession” is opposed, it’s because of the first understanding. This is why the Latins went to great lengths to emphasize the “single principle” or “single Spiration” point of the definition.

Peace and God bless!
 
It is interesting that you say that an article which most likely comes under the ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church has no merit. As I recall, the article had the ecclesiastical approval of the bishop and as you know the teachings of a bishop come under the ordinary magisterium of the Catholic Church and these teachings do have merit for a faithful Catholic.
“The dogma of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from Father and Son as one Principle is directly opposed to the error that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father, not from the Son.”
“The rejection of the Filioque, or the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and Son, and the denial of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff constitute even today the principal errors of the Greek church.”
I agree with you that the term “double procession” is thoroughly misleading. The Councils themselves EXPLICITLY reject procession from two sources. I won’t even seek to justify that error from the Catholic Encyclopedia (though Latins might attempt to do so by saying that it is understandable “with explanation”). That is why I felt it was disingenuous of you to compare the authority of the Councils (which are infallible) to the authority of the Encylopedia.

As regards the imprimatur, brother Aramis has sufficiently explained to you the matter, but it seems that is not sufficient for you. Perhaps the following further explanation may help.

First of all, if you want to get a gauge of the authority that determined the appropriateness of the contents for the Faithful, then you don’t look at the imprimatur, but rather the nihil obstat. Many times, the two are granted by the same authority. Other times it is not. Though the imprimatur of the Catholic Encyclopedia was granted by a bishop, the nihil obstat was not.

Perhaps a history of the matter may be appropriate. In the ancient past, the nihil obstat and imprimatur was under the direct purview of the Pope. Later it came under the purview of a papal commission. Much later (IIRC, around the time of the Council of Trent) the local bishop gained purview over the matter. Even later (at the turn of the 19th-2oth century), the matter was turned over to specially appointed local episcopal commissions. It is rare for a bishop to have a direct hand (much less the Pope) in the granting of the nihil obstat and imprimatur.

So in many cases, not even the ordinary magisterium is involved in determining the doctrinal appropriateness of the contents of a book to be published - ONLY the permission for it to be printed is granted by the local ordinary. Even then, as stated, the permission is granted by the episcopal commission in the name of the local ordinary, not the ordinary in personam.

When all is considered, the publishing of a book does not fall under the direct purview of the ordinary magisterium, much less the extraordinary magisterium. Only books that are explicitly intended for catechetical purposes would have the direct purview of the ordinary magisterium (or should). Merely informative books such as the Catholic Encyclopedia, or a history book on the Church, etc. do not.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I agree with you that the term “double procession” is thoroughly misleading. The Councils themselves EXPLICITLY reject procession from two sources.
they do?
One quote that I have seen is:
“We firmly believe and openly confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immense, omnipotent, unchangeable, incomprehensible, and ineffable, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; three Persons indeed but one essense, substance, or nature absolutely simple; the Father (proceeding) from no one, but the Son from the Father only, and the Holy Ghost equally from both, always without beginning and end.”
fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html
 
As regards the imprimatur, …
the article contained the nihil obstat. I didn;t see the imprimatur.
Imprimatur means let it be printed.
nihil obstat means that there is nothing objectionable. So it seems to me that if an article contains the nihil obstat, which is an official declaration by the bishop, then it would probably come under the teachings of the ordinary magisterium of the Catholic Church. The teachings of a bishop are part of the ordinary magisterium of the Catholic church, I think.
 
they do?
One quote that I have seen is:
“We firmly believe and openly confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immense, omnipotent, unchangeable, incomprehensible, and ineffable, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; three Persons indeed but one essense, substance, or nature absolutely simple; the Father (proceeding) from no one, but the Son from the Father only, and the Holy Ghost equally from both, always without beginning and end.”
fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html
The meaning of “equally from both” has been explained thoroughly in this thread only a few weeks back. It means that the processive power coming THROUGH the Son is no different (hence, “equal”) from the processive power coming FROM the Father. That is easily explained. What is less liable to easy explanation is the term “double procession” which the Encyclopedia uses, but the Councils you mention do not, and the
Lyons Council explicitly rejects.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
the article contained the nihil obstat. I didn;t see the imprimatur.
Imprimatur means let it be printed.
nihil obstat means that there is nothing objectionable. So it seems to me that if an article contains the nihil obstat, which is an official declaration by the bishop, then it would probably come under the teachings of the ordinary magisterium of the Catholic Church. The teachings of a bishop are part of the ordinary magisterium of the Catholic church, I think.
As I noted, the imprimatur of the Encyclopedia is from the bishop (the Archbishop of New York, specifically), the nihil obstat is not (it is from a regular priest).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
The Orthodox feel that filioque (as commonly understood in the Latin church) is false in itself, but at best was an unauthorized addition–something that it is felt only an ecumenical council can make.

A comparison can be drawn with Justinian’s wanting the Creed to refer to Mary as “ever-virgin”–something that is true, but again, the bishops objected to changing the Creed.
Exactly right! :clapping:
 
The Orthodox feel that filioque (as commonly understood in the Latin church) is false in itself, but at best was an unauthorized addition–something that it is felt only an ecumenical council can make.

A comparison can be drawn with Justinian’s wanting the Creed to refer to Mary as “ever-virgin”–something that is true, but again, the bishops objected to changing the Creed. (Hence, Justinian composed the hymn Only-begotten Son.)
I agree that is a good point. But I would ask whether or not Justinian wanted to make a universal change or whether it was only intended for a local Church. If universal, I would see your point; at the same time I do not see how it would apply to the issue of filioque which was always local. If local, I would also see your point, as indeed the local Easterns obviously did not want to see their Creed changed; at the same time I do not see how it would apply to the issue of filioque which was a matter for the Latin Church.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I agree that is a good point. But I would ask whether or not Justinian wanted to make a universal change or whether it was only intended for a local Church. If universal, I would see your point; at the same time I do not see how it would apply to the issue of filioque which was always local.

Blessings,
Marduk
The always local thing is not accurate. The union ushered in by His Imperial Majesty Michael Paleologus(sorry for the misspelling) and the Pope of his day made the inclusion of the Filioque in the Greek creed required. I believe this was the union of Lyons. Later the Apostolic See admitted it was wrong and did not force the adoption of the Filioque at Florence. The papacy that His Imperial Majesty had to deal with was not interested in compromising on this issue and and even tried forcing the Greeks to adopt the Latin liturgy.
 
The always local thing is not accurate. The union ushered in by His Imperial Majesty Michael Paleologus(sorry for the misspelling) and the Pope of his day made the inclusion of the Filioque in the Greek creed required. I believe this was the union of Lyons. Later the Apostolic See admitted it was wrong and did not force the adoption of the Filioque at Florence. The papacy that His Imperial Majesty had to deal with was not interested in compromising on this issue and and even tried forcing the Greeks to adopt the Latin liturgy.
Good point as well. Now, I would ask, were there Greek representatives at the Lyons Council which could have canonically changed the Creed, since it would then have been ecumenical (regardless of the transiency of its ecumenical status among the Easterns)?

In any case, the forcing of the Latin liturgy would just be flat out wrong.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
There were only a few Greek representatives at the Council I think. It was mostly the Emperor’s secular powers that forced the Greek Church into Communion. He even sent members of the Imperial family to prison for not accepting the union 😦 .
 
There were only a few Greek representatives at the Council I think. It was mostly the Emperor’s secular powers that forced the Greek Church into Communion. He even sent members of the Imperial family to prison for not accepting the union 😦 .
Well, then…that’s a different story. Thanks for the info.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
There were only a few Greek representatives at the Council I think. It was mostly the Emperor’s secular powers that forced the Greek Church into Communion. He even sent members of the Imperial family to prison for not accepting the union 😦 .
And how many representatives from the West were at the Councils of Nicea I and Constantinople I? And yet we readily accept the creed that was the product of those two Councils (Constantinople altered the Creed, just like at Lyons).

The point is the East was represented at Lyons.
 
And how many representatives from the West were at the Councils of Nicea I and Constantinople I? And yet we readily accept the creed that was the product of those two Councils (Constantinople altered the Creed, just like at Lyons).

The point is the East was represented at Lyons.
I thought that the Greek Church had been excomunicated from the Roman Church at that point in time?
 
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