do islam promote killing of innocent?

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ahmadhassan said:
bec you move around and dont confess that the quote dont talk about peace ,if he didnt come to bring peace and he will use sword then he will bring peace?:confused:
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Are you saying the Islamic view of Jesus brought war like Muhammad brought war, and that justifies more war by Muslims?
 
ahmadhassan said:
bec you move around and dont confess that the quote dont talk about peace ,if he didnt come to bring peace and he will use sword then he will bring peace?:confused:
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Well, considering I was commenting on a quote you posted, it is you who is jumping around. But at least I won’t insult you for it.
 
Verisimilitude said:
Are you saying the Islamic view of Jesus brought war like Muhammad brought war, and that justifies more war by Muslims?
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did i said so? no i didnt i just give proofs from bible ,there is difference between what i believe and what is in bible
 
dmelosi said:
Interesting sites…will save and look through it.

But…still nothing about condemning violence. Please answer this question…where is the condemnation of violence??? Can you show an instance please???
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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm

Muslim leaders condemn terrorism
Islamic leaders across Birmingham have issued a joint message against terrorism in a bid to tackle mistrust of Muslims in the UK.

Leaders of the 150 mosques in the city have backed the statement, which comes in response to the police raid in London’s Forest Gate this month.

The religious edict makes clear the killing of innocent victims is against the principles of Islam.

It has been welcomed by the chief constable of the West Midlands.

The message is thought to be the first joint statement made by Muslim scholars in the UK against terrorism.

Activities regulated

It states: “That killing of innocent civilians is absolutely forbidden in Islam and anyone who contemplates or commits any such act, does so against the teachings of Islam.”

The statement adds action has been taken to regulate the activities of every mosque to ensure worshippers are given a message of “calmness and civic responsibility”.

It said the action of the UK Government in Iraq had caused anger in the Muslim community but there is a “resolve to guide the Muslim response in accordance with good citizenship”.

Dr Muhammad Naseem, chairman of the Birmingham Central Mosque, said: "There is a perception that Muslims are a source of terrorism.

“Although individuals have made statements against terrorism people still say Muslims aren’t denouncing terrorism.”

‘Positive announcement’

Terrorism is against the teachings of Islam, Dr Naseem explained, saying he was making the leaders’ position clear.

“We hope this will improve the understanding between religious communities in the city,” he added.

West Midlands chief constable Paul Scott-Lee said: “I am delighted by this positive announcement from our local mosques and fully support what is an important statement for all our communities.”

It is planned that similar anti-violence messages from Muslim leaders across other UK cities will be issued as part of the initiative.
Story from BBC NEWS:
news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm

Published: 2006/06/23 17:48:02 GMT

© BBC MMVII
 
here is the problem with that. They (muslims) get to define who is “innocent”. Sure they condemn in general principle the killing of innocent civilians. But give specific condemnations of specific acts. The imams issue fatwas declaring their victims “guilty” and thus muslim atrocities are justified because they are punishment for the “guilty”. here are some passages form the Koran that are relevant to this:

*Q9:4 Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers, except
those idolaters who have honoured their treaties with you and
aided none against you. With these keep faith until their
treaties have run their term. Allah loves the righteous. When
the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find
them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere
for them. If they repent and take to prayer and pay the alms-
tax, let them go their way. Allah is forgiving and merciful.

Q5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Q9.14: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

Q2.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Q9.29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book (Bible), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

“Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.” (Surah 2:216)

“Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme.” (Surah 8:36-)

“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them.” (Surah 9:121-)

Surah 23 - Al Mu’minun THE BELIEVERS

023.001 The believers must (eventually) win through,-

023.002 Those who humble themselves in their prayers;

023.003 Who avoid vain talk;

023.004 Who are active in deeds of charity;

023.005 Who abstain from sex,

023.006 Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,
*

these passages are easily used to point out that killing and raping and enslaving and dhimitude are easily justified because the victims aren’t innocent. If you aren’t muslim then you can’t be innocent and unless you pay the jizya and acknowledge the superiority of Islam and submit to Islamic rule with complete humility then you deserve what you get from the muslims.
 
ahmadhassan said:
just talk and talk with no proof against islam 👍 you prove that you know nothing about islam ,we shall judge christians by what hitler(christian) did ,my country(egypt) was under occupation of uk(christian) for more than 50 year and under frensh(christians) occupation more than 30 year
italy(catholics ) invaded lybia
france(christians) killed one million muslim during **300 year of occupation in algeria **
us(christians) invaded iraq
us(christians) killed native americans (innocent people)

now do you think we shall judge religions by its teachings or by what its followers do?
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Thank you for your quote from another thread. You didn’t address my points though. Feel free to re-read and answer.
 
Section I

Anti-Islamic people often use the following verses to justify the stereotype that Islam is a religion of violence and intolerance, which was spread by the sword. The explanations here were aided by Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s commentary on the Holy Quran.

Sura 8.12 “Remember thy lord has inspired the angels with the message. Give firmness to the believers and instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite them above their necks and smite the fingertips of them.”

Sura 9.5 “When the sacred months have passed, kill the idolaters whereever you find them.”

Sura 47.4 “When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives.”

Sura 8 is about a BATTLE - the Battle of Badr - not just some daily affair. A battles take two side to occur. Are you under the impression that while these ‘horrid’ Muslims were fighting, the enemies were simply standing there like good little peaceful men?

Sura 47 was revealed during the first year of Hijrah when the Muslims were under threat of extinction by invasion from Makkah.

Sura 9 is interesting. Non-Muslims almost invariably quote verse 5 but leave out verse 4 and 6. Why? Because verse 4 says, “But the treatires are not dissolved with those Pagans with whom you have entered into alliance and who have you subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God Loves the righteous.”

And verse 6 says, “If one among the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him so that he may hear the Word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure.”

So basically what has been done above is:
  1. The background to each sura was shown. One cannot take a verse revealed for a battle and insist it is if for the daily affairs of Muslims.
  2. It was shown how Non-muslims who wish to attack Islam, conveniently leave out verses before and after their quoted verse. Above, I have shown only one of the many examples.
 
Section II

This long list of verses from the Holy Quran and the Traditions of Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) show that Islam at it’s core and at its source is a religion of peace. Terrorists who persecute innocent people because of their faith are not welcome - their use of Islam as a scapegoat, does not make Islam what they portray it to be.

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them.

4:79, 80 (Say to everyone of them,) 'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have (O Prophet) sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 (Noah to his people) He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If 1 act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?

17:53, 54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs). Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe … Hence, We have not sent you (Unto men O Prophet) with power to determine their Faith.

21:107 to 109 (O Prophet?) ‘We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?’ But if they turn away then say, “I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour (of Judgment) is near or far.”

22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites (of prayer) which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord (since that is the main objective of religion). You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, (then say,) `God best knows (the value of) what you do."

88:21, 22; also see 24:54 And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the (task of spreading) Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every (false) religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.

36:16, 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said (the Messengers), "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.’

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

42:6, 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach …

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

67:25, 26 And they ask, “When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?” Say, “The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner.”

60:8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

60:9 Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
 
ahmadhassan said:
as you know we cant make an opinion about a religion by what its followers do but by its teachings ,when a person do an accident you dont judge the car but the driver
and here i want anyone to tell me what do he know about islam from point of peace ,(talk with proof ,any thing without proof will be ignored )🙂
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Consider the Moslem obsession with THE CULT OF COLD STEEL, e.g., the sword. It’s primitive and cruel, much like that of the Japanese cult of the Samurai.
 
ahmadhassan said:
you are so funny ,do you know what is sword?
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Do you know what parables and metaphors are? Perhaps you need to study these forms of speech.

‘Sword’ was used to mean stiff, not blood shed. The passages mean that when people broke followed Jesus, in many cases they will be going against the religion of their family. This is called apostasy. Many of those who were the original Christians were executed for their belief that Jesus is the Messiah. The biblical passage did not say that the Christians will be using the sword. It says that there were be strife. And in deed in the first few centuries it was the Christians who were put to the sword and fed to lions, etc. Entire communities of Christians were slaughtered by the Jews in the early days.

The bible passages was a warning from Jesus that Christians would not have an easy time of it.
 
one muslim scholars opinion on the koran isn’t binding on anyone. We see those verses interpreted by various islamic communities as not just permission ut actual requirement fro violence all the time. even so, the quoted scholar merely states that treaties with infidels should be honored and that infidels who ask for asylum should be spared. so we are back to my original point. with no central authority each muslim leader can interpret the koran how choses and community can act as they feel the koran dictates. there is no consensus on sharia. why is this unique? because we have not only countries where islam is the state religion but communities throughout the world that feel compelled to ignore local laws and governments in favor of islam. that in and of itself is problematic but what I find most disturbing is the almost universal consensus that anything is okay to do against the “guilty” and that any non-muslim starts out guilty unless/until they accept dhimitude. actions speak louder than words and today in the world I see plenty of examples of muslim leaders and muslim groups engaging in terrorism, murder, rape and slavery and justifying it as allowed or even required by their religion. I have yet to see muslim leaders and/or communities publicly denounce or condemn any specific acts of this type by muslims. We merely get generic “frowning upon” in principle followed by a diatribe on how muslims are so persecuted and the infidels deserve far worse than what they have gotten so far.

Islam can claim peace all day but it’s followers have never ceased to practice extreme atrocities in it’s name on a large scale.
 
majick275 said:
one muslim scholars opinion on the koran isn’t binding on anyone. We see those verses interpreted by various islamic communities as not just permission ut actual requirement fro violence all the time. even so, the quoted scholar merely states that treaties with infidels should be honored and that infidels who ask for asylum should be spared. so we are back to my original point. with no central authority each muslim leader can interpret the koran how choses and community can act as they feel the koran dictates. there is no consensus on sharia. why is this unique? because we have not only countries where islam is the state religion but communities throughout the world that feel compelled to ignore local laws and governments in favor of islam. that in and of itself is problematic but what I find most disturbing is the almost universal consensus that anything is okay to do against the “guilty” and that any non-muslim starts out guilty unless/until they accept dhimitude. actions speak louder than words and today in the world I see plenty of examples of muslim leaders and muslim groups engaging in terrorism, murder, rape and slavery and justifying it as allowed or even required by their religion. I have yet to see muslim leaders and/or communities publicly denounce or condemn any specific acts of this type by muslims. We merely get generic “frowning upon” in principle followed by a diatribe on how muslims are so persecuted and the infidels deserve far worse than what they have gotten so far.

Islam can claim peace all day but it’s followers have never ceased to practice extreme atrocities in it’s name on a large scale.
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ignored for not giving proofs
 
BelFarfalla said:
Do you know what parables and metaphors are? Perhaps you need to study these forms of speech.

‘Sword’ was used to mean stiff, not blood shed. The passages mean that when people broke followed Jesus, in many cases they will be going against the religion of their family. This is called apostasy. Many of those who were the original Christians were executed for their belief that Jesus is the Messiah. The biblical passage did not say that the Christians will be using the sword. It says that there were be strife. And in deed in the first few centuries it was the Christians who were put to the sword and fed to lions, etc. Entire communities of Christians were slaughtered by the Jews in the early days.

The bible passages was a warning from Jesus that Christians would not have an easy time of it.
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dont you know that son of God is also metaphore and before abram ,i am and so and so but christians follow things that isnt present at all in bible like "truine god "
 
ahmadhassan said:
dont you know that son of God is also metaphore and before abram ,i am and so and so **but christians follow things that isnt present at all in bible **like "truine god "
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You are very arrogant. Please stick to your own faith, as obviously you are clueless to Christianity. :rolleyes:
 
ahmadhassan said:
dont you know that son of God is also metaphore and before abram ,i am and so and so but christians follow things that isnt present at all in bible like "truine god "
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lol, what does this have to do with the verse about a sword? Did I get the better of you so t hen you had to bring up something else?
 
Verisimilitude said:
You ask for proof in eveything. What kind of proof are you expecting?
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atheists say that christ wasnt exist ,will you believe me or you will need proof? proof is what determine what is true and what is not ,every word we say need proof or its nothing ,
 
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