Do Jews and Muslims pray to the one true God?

[GraceDK]

HashemEchad:The so-called “messianic jews” feel they are doing nothing wrong, because Paul told them it was alright to use trickery, lies and deception to “win souls”. See 1 Cor. 9: 20-23. So you see, trickery and deception is enshrined in your very scriptures.

I thought: Paul says that? funny… I have never read that in the Bible anywhere… I looked it up to check … and nope… nothing of the sort. Cant you come up with anything better than that… I mean really HE … I am going to forget that you actually got that low in order to discredit Scripture and back slander your neigbour.

I belong to traditional Judaism. I know what Judaism believes and teaches, and what it does not. So do rabbis. And if they say you cannot be Jewish and believe in Jesus, then you cannot.

**But there are Rabbis who say Yeshua is Messiah. Even Yeshua was a rabbi… thats what we believe… And as far as I know one of the famous contemporary Rabbis that fit the criteria of your Jewishness namely Rabbi Schmuley Boteach wrote a book about Yeshua a few years ago where he called Him a pharisaic rabbi (honorable title no?)… So tell me HE… who shall I believe… the two Rabbis or you? **

How would you like it if I started insisting that you can be a practicing Catholic and advocate for abortion? There is an organization called “Catholics for a Free Choice”, which makes this very claim. The Catholic church insists they are wrong.

I would not say that a Catholic who has an issue with a teaching of the Church is no longer a Catholic per definition. I can say that she or he is not in agreement with official church teaching.
However… Jewishness is a somewhat different case… I know secular Jews who dont even practice kosher or go to synagoge… still they call themselves Jews… because being Jewish is more than a world view… you know that. I dont need to teach you.

I also know of an organization called Evangelicals for Choice. They say you can be a bornagain Christian and support abortion. Yet almost all born-again Christian say you cannot be born again and pro-abortion.

**The way I see it, its very appropriate that Messianic Jews call themselves precisely that… thereby they avoid being confused with those who have not received Yeshua as their Messiah. If they called themselves simply Jews I would call on them to be more specific in order to avoid confusion and resentment. However… you can hardly ask a Jew who believes the JEWISH Messiah has come to stop calling himself a Jew of at least some kind. **

Who should I believe? Based on your reasoning, maybe I should give the Catholics for a Free Choice and Evangelicals for Choice a fair hearing?

**Of course you should always give a fair hearing… But in this discussion you dont have to… because I dont say that these people are not Christians… only that they are in clear opposition to Catholic Church teaching and will suffer the consequences of that… But take the name of Christ away from people… now that is beyond my juristiction. So is it beyond yours to take away the name “Jewish” from people who have also taken the consequence of not being in full community with the rest of the Jewish society. They stand out and are honest… I have known them as nothing else and your own ill-will will change nothing about that. Indeed I believe that my brothers that you despise love you and pray for your wellbeing all the time. **

If you are not going to respect the right of my faith to decide who is and who is not legitimate, why should I respect the right of your faith to make similar decisions?

**A faith does not have rights… God does. And living beings do.
You don’t have to do anything you dont want to do… All I am saying is that Messianic Jews are indeed ethnic Jews who by their own definition and that of Christianity are fulfilled Jews…
Look, HE, I understand that you cannot agree that they are, but still you have to let people have the right to think differently. Sto raging and staring your self blind… why not go over to them one day with some cookies and lemonade and give it to the workers … ask them what they are doing, have a good dialog, and then tell them that you prefer peace and quiet on the Sabbaths. I am sure they would respond to you with respect and charitably stop making the noise… However… dare you meet your neighbour face to face or do you prefer to build your own ideas about them and their deceit behind closed doors?

Shalom**

 

[GraceDK]

I have to wonder at your insistence in your argument with HE. You say you’re Catholic. She says she’s Jewish (Traditional). Why would you imagine that she should ignore her own experiences to agree with yours? It’s completely illogical. (It seems quite uncharitable too.)

I have a discussion with HE because I find it interesting to discuss with her. I think we are both grown ups and we could shake each others hand after each post… I know I could. Both of us try to be respectful and understanding at the same as as we firmly state our dissagreeing points. It might get a bit fiery… but no one is forced to continue or is here in order to somehow persecute the other… On the contrary…
So whats uncharitable about that?
I find it interesting to discuss with her namely because she is an orthodox Jew that takes her belief seriously… Besides… wherever did you get the idea that I expect her to ignore her own experience… I am calling for critical thinking at times… thats hardly the same.
I find it unlikely that you have read this whole dialog and only have that little to say … Actually yours is the most uncharitable comment I have yet seen on this thread.

Peace to you…

 

[HashemEchad]

GraceDK, Why did you lie and say that Paul never said what I said he did? Did you think no one would look it up?

What do you think this passage from 1 Corinthians means?

“And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the Law, as under the Law, that I might gain them that are under the Law…” (1 Cor. 9:20)

What do you think that means?

Paul is clearly saying (using himself as an example), that it is OK to pose as someone who is a Jew, or who “is under the Law” (which is why “messianics” pose as Orthodox, Torah observant Jews), in order to convert Jews, or “those that are under the Law”!

I’ve had “messianics” admit to me that they use that passage as justification for their antics (of course, when they admitted it to me, they didn’t realize who I was. )

Paul is saying that he “became all things to all men” in order to convert them. That means WHATEVER he has to do to make people think he is “one of them”, he will do to convert them.

If that is not deception and trickery, WHAT IS?

What if my mother had continued to call herself a Catholic after her conversion to Judaism, so as to give the impression that you can be a Catholic and not believe in Jesus? That would have been WRONG.

All we in Judaism ask for is HONESTY. If you’re going to be a Christian, CALL yourself one. You can’t have your cake and eat it too! Because if so, then my husband can begin calling himself a “Christian for Judaism”, because he used to be a Christian but converted to Judaism. Maybe that’s what he should do; call himself a “Christian without Jesus”. See how ridiculous it sounds?

How about Christians for Buddha? Christians for Zoroaster? Christians for Krishna?

Why must Christian former Jews resort to DECEPTION to 'win souls"? What that tells me is their beliefs CANNOT stand on their own, they NEED deception to convince people.

 

[morning_star777]

graceDK,can you give me some authentic information?did really the former pope john paul II said that christians and muslims pray to same god?i am confused about it.jews obey OT.but muslims don’t obey OT or NT.so how can muslims worship same god with christians?muslims brought a different book named quran.i think quran if a fiction.(though its not the topic here).so pls give me the authentic information about former pope’s word.god bless you

 

[morning_star777]

GraceDK u can give information of my previous post via PM if u want.but pls give me information.i am a converted christian from islam.so if christians and muslims worship same god then why i became christian!though i don’t belive muslim god.but i am shocked about former pope’s word(if he really said so).so pls inform me as a christian fellow.

 

[GraceDK]

GraceDK, Why did you lie and say that Paul never said what I said he did? Did you think no one would look it up?

Dont get so dramatic HE. Try the first option. You see, you call yourself a truth-witness… yet you rather call your neighbour a liar before hearing them out. That shows alot about you.

What do you think this passage from 1 Corinthians means?
“And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the Law, as under the Law, that I might gain them that are under the Law…” (1 Cor. 9:20)

**Have you read the whole of the letter or only this little piece that you may use to support some bias against messianics? You see, deception and lying is forbidden according to the whole New Testament… so, no one will understand this passage the way you do. How does Paul win souls?: He answers: I have become weak. I have become a servant of all. I have become everything to every one in order that I may save some… Now Paul does not believe he has to keep a certain day of rest in order to be saved, he knows he is saved by Yeshua and is already saved… He knows he can eat whatever and it wont make God angry… but he overlooks his own rights and serves the ones he is with in order to show a sign of love and humility for them so that they may come to believe that he is indeed sent by Love himself with a good message… ****therefore Paul becomes servant to all. It has nothing to do with deceit. Nowhere can you find a passage that says Paul was not honest as a believer in Yeshua. You have misinterpreted the whole text… for your sake I hope you have done it with no evil intent… but you certainly havent got the truth out of it. Indeed liars serve the devil… that is Pauls own words. **

Paul is clearly saying (using himself as an example), that it is OK to pose as someone who is a Jew, or who “is under the Law” (which is why “messianics” pose as Orthodox, Torah observant Jews), in order to convert Jews, or “those that are under the Law”!

That might be so… but not with deception… he might try not to cause scandal out of love for his brother… But that is not the same as violating the commands by lying.

I’ve had “messianics” admit to me that they use that passage as justification for their antics (of course, when they admitted it to me, they didn’t realize who I was. )

**Yes… and now it appears why… they thought you understood the passage… but you did not. **

Paul is saying that he “became all things to all men” in order to convert them. That means WHATEVER he has to do to make people think he is “one of them”, he will do to convert them.

**No… no where is sin EVER condoned in the New Testament. **

What if my mother had continued to call herself a Catholic after her conversion to Judaism, so as to give the impression that you can be a Catholic and not believe in Jesus? That would have been WRONG.

I** agree to some extent. We have a duty to our fellow man that we use language with clarity. However… I see no reason why your mother would call herself Christian after having turned away from Christ (Lord have mercy on her) but it makes total sense to me that a Jew that believes in the Jewish Messiah calls himself a Messianic Jew… Somehow I cant understand you have so little understanding for that. Even if you disagree with them.

Grace**

 

[HashemEchad]

GraceDK: Christian of Jewish origin are being deceitful when they use the term “messianic jew”…because do you know what the term “messianic jew” really means?

It means a Jew who awaits the coming of the Messiah. That means Orthodox Jews are the true owners of that term.

“messianics” use the term to deceive authentic Jews into thinking you can be a Jew and believe in Jesus. I have followed the evangelical missionary movement for a long time, and I can tell you that before the 1970s, they called themselves "Hebrew Christians, “Jewish Christians”, and the like.

But they realized that as long as the word “Christian” was in the mix, Jews would see them for what they really are and avoid them.

So to DECEIVE Jews into hearing their message, they changed their M.O. and changed what they call themselves. The only Jews they manage to trick are the unwary.

Why do you think they stopped calling themselves “Hebrew Christians”? Ever ask yourself that? or are you not old enough to remember when they called themselves that?

They found that “messianic jew” enabled them to deceive more Jews (and evidently, Gentiles too), because it removes the word “Christian”.

I don’t know about Christians, but if I were a Christian, I’d be really offended and distrustful of anyone who claimed to believe in my messiah but refused to use the term “Christian”. I’d see them as two-faced and deceitful. I thought for believers in Jesus, the term “Christian” was a badge of honor?

In fact I know Christians who do see them that way, which is why they won’t financially support their missionary organizations.

 

[emeraldisle]

Hi everyone. I was just wondering if Jews and Muslims pray to the one true God or not? I ask because they reject the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus. Therefore, is it possible that they are praying to the one true God?

Please note what the Lord Jesus said in John 8:37-47;

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Anyone who rejects the Lord Jesus and denies that He is God is not praying to the one true God.

.

 

[HashemEchad]

Anyone who rejects the Lord Jesus and denies that He is God is not praying to the one true God.

.

…according to your belief.

 

[emeraldisle]

…according to your belief.

According to what the Lord Jesus said in John 8:37-47;

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

.

 

[HashemEchad]

According to what the Lord Jesus said in John 8:37-47;

.

And Buddha said things in the Buddhist writings, and Krishna said things in the Bhagavad-Gita, and I could go on and on.

Jesus is the deity of just one religion of many.

 

[emeraldisle]

And Buddha said things in the Buddhist writings, and Krishna said things in the Bhagavad-Gita, and I could go on and on.

Jesus is the deity of just one religion of many.

Mohammad is dead, Buddha is dead, Krishna is dead, Joseph Smith is dead and I could go on and on…

The Lord Jesus Christ is alive and He said the following;

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6

.

 

[HashemEchad]

Mohammad is dead, Buddha is dead, Krishna is dead, Joseph Smith is dead and I could go on and on…

The Lord Jesus Christ is alive and He said the following;

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6

.

Actually, Jesus died too. He was crucified.

I know, I know…“he was assumed into heaven!” How convenient for Christians, eh? That way, they don’t have to worry about giving the evidence of a body.

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[emeraldisle]

Actually, Jesus died too. He was crucified.

I know, I know…“he was assumed into heaven!” **How convenient for Christians, **eh? That way, they don’t have to worry about giving the evidence of a body.

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

It’s not about “convenience” but about Gods Truth based upon facts from His written word. In the Tanakh there is prophetic evidence of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, see Isaiah 53.

.

 

[HashemEchad]

It’s not about “convenience” but about Gods Truth based upon facts from His written word. In the Tanakh there is prophetic evidence of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, see Isaiah 53.

.

Isaiah 53 does not refer to Jesus. See this interesting explanation from a Jewish point of view: geocities.com/~Alyza/Jewish/Isaiah53.html

 

[emeraldisle]

Isaiah 53 does not refer to Jesus. See this interesting explanation from a Jewish point of view: ww.geocities.com/~Alyza/Jewish/Isaiah53

**Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah **

1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: “Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!” He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had “done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!”

chaim.org/nation.htm

 

[HashemEchad]

That info you posted is from a website run by a branch of the Presbyterian church to try to lead Jews away from the God of Israel. Why on earth would I take anything they have to say as valid?

(btw, Fred Klett, who runs that site, is someone I debated with in a public debate once, when he worked as a missionary for a Presbyterian mission in Philadelphia. In case you’re wondering, he lost the debate. And its really a small world, because the mission he runs now is located just about 5 minutes from my home.

Why don’t we just agree to disagree? I believe in God, you believe in Jesus, and that’s it.

 

[emeraldisle]

(btw, Fred Klett, who runs that site, is someone I debated with in a public debate once, when he worked as a missionary for a Presbyterian mission in Philadelphia. In case you’re wondering, he lost the debate. And its really a small world, because the mission he runs now is located just about 5 minutes from my home.

Your response is a nice attempt at trying to avoid the evidence in the Tanakh that clearly shows that Isaiah 53 doesn’t refer to Israel but that it refers to the Messiah, the Lord Jesus.

Now if you did win the debate then surely you must be able to present evidence from the Tanakh that clearly shows that Israel is sinless and so Isaiah 53 is about Israel. Can you present this evidence from the Tanakh?

Why don’t we just agree to disagree? I believe in God, you believe in Jesus, and that’s it.

Actually Jesus is God and according to the following words of the Lord Jesus you don’t believe in God.

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
**
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” **
.

 

[ralphinal]

Would it be unfair to say that Jews beleive that Moses brought the Law from God to the people?

Would it be unfair to say that, to Christians, Jesus brought a new understanding of that Law and fulfilled it?

Would it be unfair to say that, to Muslims, Muhammed brought a Law that corrected the other two groups?

No, none of these are unfair.

Now, can you accept Moses and ignore the other two? Yes.

Can you accept Jesus and ignore the other two? No. Accepting Jesus includes accepting Moses and his God. Therefore, Jews and Christians have the same God.

Can you accept Muhammed and ignore the other two? Muslims say no, but the messages are different between Jesus and Muhammed. Even Moses and Muhammed are different. Is it possible that God sent different messages to different people? Yes, but it is illogical that he would choose groups in the same geographic area to do so.

I still hold that God the Father is the God of Moses. Same God. I still hold that Muslims intend to worship that God but have a flawed understanding of Him and therefore do not have the same level of Truth as Christians or Jews.

 

[catharina]

Would it be unfair to say that Jews beleive that Moses brought the Law from God to the people?

Would it be unfair to say that, to Christians, Jesus brought a new understanding of that Law and fulfilled it?

Would it be unfair to say that, to Muslims, Muhammed brought a Law that corrected the other two groups?

No, none of these are unfair.

Now, can you accept Moses and ignore the other two? Yes.

Can you accept Jesus and ignore the other two? No. Accepting Jesus includes accepting Moses and his God. Therefore, Jews and Christians have the same God.

Can you accept Muhammed and ignore the other two? Muslims say no, but the messages are different between Jesus and Muhammed. Even Moses and Muhammed are different. Is it possible that God sent different messages to different people? Yes, but it is illogical that he would choose groups in the same geographic area to do so.

I still hold that God the Father is the God of Moses. Same God. I still hold that Muslims intend to worship that God but have a flawed understanding of Him and therefore do not have the same level of Truth as Christians or Jews.

Well said.

Only God is God.
All three of the named religions worship the only God.

Nice distinction: “I still hold that Muslims intend to worship that God but have a flawed understanding of Him and therefore do not have the same level of Truth as Christians or Jews.”