Do Jews and Muslims pray to the one true God?

[chosen_people]

JP II caught all kinds of stuff when he made that same statement about Hell.

Which is worse? The fire or the separation from God for eternity…

HashemEchad has taken the Catholic concept of Hell removed the fire and replaced seperation from Yehoshua bar Yosef with seperation from God. This is an interesting concept but I fear it has nothing to do with Judaisim. There is no double concept of purgatory as opposed to Hell as in Christianity.

 

[ralphinal]

HashemEchad has taken the Catholic concept of Hell removed the fire and replaced seperation from Yehoshua bar Yosef with seperation from God. This is an interesting concept but I fear it has nothing to do with Judaisim. There is no double concept of purgatory as opposed to Hell as in Christianity.

This is from a website that was refered to me by a Jewish poster on this forum. It classifies itself as Orthodox. Here is the link

jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She’ol or by other names. According to one mystical view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created. Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba.

Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of this period; their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.

This 12-month limit is repeated in many places in the Talmud, and it is connected to the mourning cycles and the recitation of Kaddish. See Life, Death and Mourning.

The bolding is done by me for emphasis.

From my limited research on Judaism, I see no reason why eternal hell is not a possibility. This does fit what H.E. said and can be reconciled with Judaism, unless I am completely wrong with my assertions.

 

[Valke2]

I think your understanding is correct. Because of things that have been done to Jews, the belief that certain souls suffer more than others, in very limited circumstances, has taken root in Jewish dogma.

 

[ralphinal]

IS that a problem to you? Personally, I like to think that the really bad folks are really punished in the end…

 

[Valke2]

IS that a problem to you? Personally, I like to think that the really bad folks are really punished in the end…

Not a problem for me. Although I have to admit that my understanding and belief of the hereafter remains a work in progress.

 

[ralphinal]

Not a problem for me. Although I have to admit that my understanding and belief of the hereafter remains a work in progress.

And from my study, that is acceptable, too.

 

[catharina]

OP, do Jews and Moslems believe in the one true God?

Answer: YES.

 

[rtconstant]

Thanks, HashemEchad, Chosen People, Valke2 for the information. Also thanks for the quote Ralphinal. So my understanding was wrong I’m glad for the clarification. So it looks like there is room within the Jewish fold for differing oppinions on the ultimate fate after the purgatory period.

As an aside I would think that seperation from God would be the ultimate punishment. Even those who don’t believe in Him still enjoy the general sense of His presence and the wonder of His creation. I think that any soul would feel starved and alone if seperated from the One it was created to adore.

All very interesting though, its cool to see that we actually are similar in our views on the afterlife. Thanks again for the information.

 

[HashemEchad]

HashemEchad has taken the Catholic concept of Hell removed the fire and replaced seperation from Yehoshua bar Yosef with seperation from God. This is an interesting concept but I fear it has nothing to do with Judaisim. There is no double concept of purgatory as opposed to Hell as in Christianity.

Hm, if it has nothing to do with Judaism then I need to let my (Chasidic) rabbi know that. Because that’s how he presented it to me.

 

[GraceDK]

GRACE DK: When I used the word “uneducated”, I did not mean uneducated in terms of secular knowledge, I meant Jews who are JEWISHLY uneducated (that is, not familiar with what Judaism fully teaches.)

Yes, thats excatly what I assumed that you also implied… and yes, I do find that statement condescending and uneducated in itself… I know Jews who are very well studied both in Judaism, strong believers as it were, (and higly educated in worldly knowlege too…not that this matters much to this discussion)… and who have embraced Yeshua on the basis of that knowlege… or should I say, in spite of… because they all say that they were broubt up with a Judaism that taught them to believe that the claims about Yeshua must not even be taken seriously let alone tested… They knew that if they became followers of Him they would suffer condemnation by a people who would not ever unbiased hear their case. One friend of mine is a former hasidic Jew… He went into an empty church one day and became a believer in there all by himself…G-d simply overwhelmed him with His presense… the same presence He knew from the Wailing Wall and other places of intense prayer but this time it was much more intense … and here he was alone with G-d.
Then there was the very orthodox Jew that accidentally went into the wrong chapel in the airport…He was going for the Synagoge-chapel but found him self face to face with the cross… he stood there for some hours and could not move while realising the truth about Yeshua… Last thing I heard was that he still has not told his family about his beliefs… he was not ready because he knows they will cut him out of the family He lives in Israel by the way…

Anyway…what’s the point… you think you need to deny Judaism and the true G-d in order to believe in Yeshua as the Messiah. My friends don’t buy into that anymore and they claim they are fulfilled Jews… and they are not uneducated in any of the ways you would prefer to think.

We have to agree to dissagree.

Shalom.

 

[HashemEchad]

GraceDK: Studies have repeatedly shown (and they are borne out by what I have found in over 25 ys of work in the countermissionary field) that the VAST MAJORITY of Jews who convert out and/or marry out come from backgrounds that are grossly lacking in authentic Jewish education.

Those are the statistics.

 

[GraceDK]

GraceDK: Studies have repeatedly shown (and they are borne out by what I have found in over 25 ys of work in the countermissionary field) that the VAST MAJORITY of Jews who convert out and/or marry out come from backgrounds that are grossly lacking in authentic Jewish education.

Those are the statistics.

Come on HE.
Jews are clever people for the most part… dont tell me you dont question statistics… even when they say something you are in favour off.
In my years of study we learned about statistics and that the vast number of them indeed come out with results that favour the position that is held by the one posing the questions. Show me two statistic that says what you claim… one should be made by messianics and the other by non-messianics… then if they say the same you got a case… but my guess is you cant pull that off and you know it well… the card where you make it appear as a statistic, scientific fact that people who disagree with you are less educated in crucial areas has been played since the dawn of time…
You have to be kidding me… I will tell you what… I live in a society with huge differences in world view, culture, ethical and normative thinking etc… this reality has made it obvious to the vast majority of the well-educated population that even the highest professors can look at the same object and see two opposite things …the one will say: “Its the moon”… the other will say: “its a yellow cheese”… Enough said…

 

[HashemEchad]

GraceDK, I have been in this (countermissionary work) for several decades, and in that time have met many. many Jews who joined other religions.

NOT ONCE have I met one that had a very thorough knowledge of traditional Judaism. NOT ONCE. That’s a lot of people! Ditto for Jews who intermarry.

What I find is that some Jews develop a rudimentary knowledge of Judaism AFTER their conversion to Christianity, probably because they want ti have the knowledge to try to convert other Jews.

 

[GraceDK]

GraceDK, I have been in this (countermissionary work) for several decades, and in that time have met many. many Jews who joined other religions.

NOT ONCE have I met one that had a very thorough knowledge of traditional Judaism. NOT ONCE. That’s a lot of people! Ditto for Jews who intermarry.

What I find is that some Jews develop a rudimentary knowledge of Judaism AFTER their conversion to Christianity, probably because they want ti have the knowledge to try to convert other Jews.

Then I am prone to say: You have not met very many on a close level… or, even more likely: you set a very, very high standard for a convert which is probably higher than what you should in order to be reasonable. The fact that some of the people you know might not have the knowlege of a Rabbi does not mean that they are not well informed, or even more important, very seriously practice their Jewish faith at the time where they become convinced believers in Yeshua.
As I said… I know such former Orthodox Jews from my stay in Jerusalem… people who are serious and very well informed Messianic Jews and who have payed a costly price in order to follow their conviction…
I dont know if Jews in America are generelly less informed about their Jewish faith before receiving Yeshua as their Messiah but I have no reason to believe so…
So… if you want to meet some people or the kind you havent meet yet, come to the Messianic gongregations in Israel… thats where I have my knowlege from…

 

[HashemEchad]

If a Jew truly was fully knowledgeable of what Judaism teaches, they would never fall for the Yeshu thing. That is readily apparent to anyone with a good grasp of Judaism.

Just because someone grew up in Israel does not make them an expert on Judaism. Unfortunately, many Israelis are what is termed “Hebrew-speaking Gentiles”, because Israelis are predominantly secular.

 

[GraceDK]

If a Jew truly was fully knowledgeable of what Judaism teaches, they would never fall for the Yeshu thing. That is readily apparent to anyone with a good grasp of Judaism.

Just because someone grew up in Israel does not make them an expert on Judaism. Unfortunately, many Israelis are what is termed “Hebrew-speaking Gentiles”, because Israelis are predominantly secular.

I did not say Israelis are experts… only that I had meet a good bunch of Messianic Jews in Israel that would willingly tell you about their past as very serious Jews and non-believers in Yeshua.
If you dont even have enough cool in this area to admit that we believe in YESHUA (yes, I have heard such nonsense talk as yours before… there is nothing new under the sun) then I doubt you are readily willing to give the Messianics a break and a chance to explain themselves… also its evident from that word “yeshu thing” that you would be more than willing to accept what any statistic says in favour of your own position.
Your unwillingness to admit that anyone can in fact be a serious Jew and accept YESHUA as Messiah is so old… so old… and so irrational and biased.
I’d say: be honest in your investigation.

 

[HashemEchad]

I did not say Israelis are experts… only that I had meet a good bunch of Messianic Jews in Israel that would willingly tell you about their past as very serious Jews and non-believers in Yeshua.
If you dont even have enough cool in this area to admit that we believe in YESHUA (yes, I have heard such nonsense talk as yours before… there is nothing new under the sun) then I doubt you are readily willing to give the Messianics a break and a chance to explain themselves… also its evident from that word “yeshu thing” that you would be more than willing to accept what any statistic says in favour of your own position.
Your unwillingness to admit that anyone can in fact be a serious Jew and accept YESHUA as Messiah is so old… so old… and so irrational and biased.
I’d say: be honest in your investigation.

GraceDK, There are four “messianic” congregations in my city. NONE of them are Torah observant. Most of the members are intermarried with Gentiles. One of the groups is located in an Orthodox neighborhood, and they not long ago hired contractors to do work on their building, VERY noisy, on Shabbat, thereby disturbing the peace of the Sabbath. This is typical behavior for them, and they are DECEITFUL int he way they claim to be religious Jews but their actions show otherwise.

You can no more be a Jew who believes in Jesus as you can a Jew who believes in Krishna. You cannot blend two religions whose views are diametrically opposed.

If A Jew chooses to believe in Jesus, let him at least be HONEST about it, and call himself what he is: a Christian. Its the DECEPTION that annoys us more than anything.

 

[GraceDK]

GraceDK, There are four “messianic” congregations in my city. NONE of them are Torah observant. Most of the members are intermarried with Gentiles. One of the groups is located in an Orthodox neighborhood, and they not long ago hired contractors to do work on their building, VERY noisy, on Shabbat, thereby disturbing the peace of the Sabbath. This is typical behavior for them, and they are DECEITFUL int he way they claim to be religious Jews but their actions show otherwise.

You can no more be a Jew who believes in Jesus as you can a Jew who believes in Krishna. You cannot blend two religions whose views are diametrically opposed.

If A Jew chooses to believe in Jesus, let him at least be HONEST about it, and call himself what he is: a Christian. Its the DECEPTION that annoys us more than anything.

There is no deception where there is no will to deceive. you should know that much.
As for your words… they remind me fairly much of the anti-sentiment that Jews were shown by many Christians throughout history… only now the role is reversed… did you know that Christians one time during the middle ages reported Jews for disturbing their holy days by being noisy? When I read that I thought to my self… the Christians had an uncharitable suspision towards their Jewish neighbour and I was sad… Today you show the same behaviour.

About being Jewish. Its their word against yours. They say they are fulfilled Jews. All of Christianity rejoices at that truth with them.
All of us, including the Messianics, believe that you too are called to be fulfilled Jews… The Messiah is Jewish… there is nothing more Jewish than to embrace the true Messiah. You know that…
However… there is no sense in discussing this. You and I both feel blessed… you for believing what you do and for believing you stand in the Truth. I for the same reason.

We wont be able to rejoice together until the day of the coming of the Messiah… I long for that for the same reason… I have always had a special love for the Jews … as far as I understand, Jews and Christians alike have an expectation that the coming of the Messiah is soon.
Do you share this near expectation ?

Ps… As for the unwillingness to call themselves Christians… I am grieved at that for my own reasons… for sometimes it is a sign of division. On the other hand… because of their name “Messianic Jews” more and more Jews join them, and I rejoice at that.

besides… as I said… I have befriended them and felt no hostility… I see them as role models of love and morality to the rest of the Christians… besides from that… the Messianics are under alot of pressure and mockery in their own country, Israel… especially the Orthodox Jews call our Lord Yeshu in order to deliberately offend… however… offence have never made someone come back to Judaism has it now…

Shabbat Shalom…

 

[catharina]

There is no deception where there is no will to deceive. you should know that much.
As for your words… they remind me fairly much of the anti-sentiment that Jews were shown by many Christians throughout history… only now the role is reversed… did you know that Christians one time during the middle ages reported Jews for disturbing their holy days by being noisy? When I read that I thought to my self… the Christians had an uncharitable suspision towards their Jewish neighbour and I was sad… Today you show the same behaviour.

About being Jewish. Its their word against yours. They say they are fulfilled Jews. All of Christianity rejoices at that truth with them.
All of us, including the Messianics, believe that you too are called to be fulfilled Jews… The Messiah is Jewish… there is nothing more Jewish than to embrace the true Messiah. You know that…
However… there is no sense in discussing this. You and I both feel blessed… you for believing what you do and for believing you stand in the Truth. I for the same reason.

We wont be able to rejoice together until the day of the coming of the Messiah… I long for that for the same reason… I have always had a special love for the Jews … as far as I understand, Jews and Christians alike have an expectation that the coming of the Messiah is soon.
Do you share this near expectation ?

Ps… As for the unwillingness to call themselves Christians… I am grieved at that for my own reasons… for sometimes it is a sign of division. On the other hand… because of their name “Messianic Jews” more and more Jews join them, and I rejoice at that.

besides… as I said… I have befriended them and felt no hostility… I see them as role models of love and morality to the rest of the Christians… besides from that… the Messianics are under alot of pressure and mockery in their own country, Israel… especially the Orthodox Jews call our Lord Yeshu in order to deliberately offend… however… offence have never made someone come back to Judaism has it now…

Shabbat Shalom…

I have to wonder at your insistence in your argument with HE. You say you’re Catholic. She says she’s Jewish (Traditional). Why would you imagine that she should ignore her own experiences to agree with yours? It’s completely illogical. (It seems quite uncharitable too.)

 

[HashemEchad]

There is no deception where there is no will to deceive. you should know that much.
As for your words… they remind me fairly much of the anti-sentiment that Jews were shown by many Christians throughout history… only now the role is reversed… did you know that Christians one time during the middle ages reported Jews for disturbing their holy days by being noisy? When I read that I thought to my self… the Christians had an uncharitable suspision towards their Jewish neighbour and I was sad… Today you show the same behaviour.

About being Jewish. Its their word against yours. They say they are fulfilled Jews. All of Christianity rejoices at that truth with them.
All of us, including the Messianics, believe that you too are called to be fulfilled Jews… The Messiah is Jewish… there is nothing more Jewish than to embrace the true Messiah. You know that…
However… there is no sense in discussing this. You and I both feel blessed… you for believing what you do and for believing you stand in the Truth. I for the same reason.

We wont be able to rejoice together until the day of the coming of the Messiah… I long for that for the same reason… I have always had a special love for the Jews … as far as I understand, Jews and Christians alike have an expectation that the coming of the Messiah is soon.
Do you share this near expectation ?

Ps… As for the unwillingness to call themselves Christians… I am grieved at that for my own reasons… for sometimes it is a sign of division. On the other hand… because of their name “Messianic Jews” more and more Jews join them, and I rejoice at that.

besides… as I said… I have befriended them and felt no hostility… I see them as role models of love and morality to the rest of the Christians… besides from that… the Messianics are under alot of pressure and mockery in their own country, Israel… especially the Orthodox Jews call our Lord Yeshu in order to deliberately offend… however… offence have never made someone come back to Judaism has it now…

Shabbat Shalom…

The so-called “messianic jews” feel they are doing nothing wrong, because Paul told them it was alright to use trickery, lies and deception to “win souls”. See 1 Cor. 9: 20-23. So you see, trickery and deception is enshrined in your very scriptures.

I belong to traditional Judaism. I know what Judaism believes and teaches, and what it does not. So do rabbis. And if they say you cannot be Jewish and believe in Jesus, then you cannot.

How would you like it if I started insisting that you can be a practicing Catholic and advocate for abortion? There is an organization called “Catholics for a Free Choice”, which makes this very claim. The Catholic church insists they are wrong.

I also know of an organization called Evangelicals for Choice. They say you can be a bornagain Christian and support abortion. Yet almost all born-again Christian say you cannot be born again and pro-abortion.

Who should I believe? Based on your reasoning, maybe I should give the Catholics for a Free Choice and Evangelicals for Choice a fair hearing?

If you are not going to respect the right of my faith to decide who is and who is not legitimate, why should I respect the right of your faith to make similar decisions?