Do LDS openly acknowledge that their religion teaches the belief of multiple gods?

[dianaiad]

Bravo on the subject change and obfuscation. Are you defending polygyny as something that doesn’t objectify women?

I don’t think I’m alone in the assesment that the practice of plural marriage did just that.

It did not…when practiced properly. However, that’s the hard part. Right now I think that the 50’s idea of marriage …one woman, one man, he is the boss of the house and brings home the bacon and she is ‘just a housewife’ whose job is to take care of the kiddies and look sexy for the man…THAT is objectifying the woman.

Today’s attitude towards women is hugely that of objectifying them. The feminist movement, that abandoned traditional women’s roles so that a woman could 'do the things any man can do" did the same thing.

ANY society that elevates the sexual and demeans the other facets of marital relationships objectifies the women.

When practiced properly (and the polygamist groups that operate now don’t do that.) the women and the men are EQUAL PARTNERS in a Family relationship. When a new wife is introduced to the family, the choice is made as much or more by the women involved as the man. I’m the product of polygamist ancestors; several sets. Some of them were good at it…some weren’t. The ones who were GOOD at it, well…one wife was the homemaker…because that’s what she loved doing. Another was a teacher (of the family children as well as others) and a writer. A GOOD one…and she could be because SHE ‘had a wife.’ The husband was a farmer who wasn’t worked to death. A third wife was a physician, sent by BY back east to medical school…and she could DO that and BE that because she knew her family was safely being cared for by her sister-wives and husband. The fourth and last wife was studying law. She could DO that, because of the family dynamics. All five adults had the time to employ their talents AND raise their children well. All the women had the vote (well, of course they did. They were, after all, Mormon women and that came with the territory) and equal say in the family affairs–which meant that the four women outvoted the man sometimes. In fact, the only way my G-Grandpa could hold his own was that he had the priesthood, which made him the religious head of the household–and all that did was raise him up to have the same authority the women did.

But the government stepped in, broke up the families, and from that day on a happy, well adjusted and prosperous group was poverty striken, struggling…the difference was amazing. All to make some officious idiot in some Methodist pew back in New England happy that the Utah women were no longer being…what was that word…'objectified?"

But living polygamy the right way is HARD. Men don’t like giving up the control, and they have to, in a properly run polygamist society.

 

[dianaiad]

**History tells us Joseph Smith was proven a false prophet many times over. How can any Mormon believe such falsehoods, when it defies every historic and anthropological kind of evidence. Not only does scientific evidence refute any kind of Book Of Mormon civilization, it give concrete evidence of a totally different civilization in its place. **

Jo Ann

Dear Jo Ann.

I am a Mormon. I’ve been one all my 60 years of life. I’m the product of Mormons. I was raised with the faith, and the beliefs, and they all make FAR more sense to me than any other belief system I have ever run across, including Catholicism, Protestantism (all the many types,) and any other 'ism.

You believe that Joseph Smith has been ‘proven’ to be this or that…but obviously he has not been proven so to the 14,000,000 or so Mormons who believe that he was indeed a prophet. You claim that the Book of Mormon has been ‘proven’ false…but it has not. I has not been proven true, either—but for that matter, neither has the Bible been scientifically proven true. That’s what faith is all about. Your horrified, gasping exclamation of disbelief that anyone could believe, or accept, the things we do is simply a repeat of the sort of unending, absolutely stultifying and useless, rhetoric that we have to put up with all the time.

If you have an actual QUESTION, rather than some further grand declaration of outraged huff, I would be more than happy to answer it.

Diana, who is tired, has the flu, feels like the stuff rabbits chew, and has NO patience for this stuff tonight.

 

[dianaiad]

I used to be a Mormon yes. True blue. Went to BYU and lived in Provo for over a decade. Been thru the temple, etc etc. Held callings of sunday school teacher, Relief society teach and Relief Society President etc etc.

If people ask me if I think Mormons are Christians I tell them I see them as non-traditional Christians.

They do believe that Christ is the Son of God, came to earth, suffered, was crucified and rose again on the 3rd day for our sin.

What makes them non-traditional is that they dont believen in the Trinity in the traditional sense. For the the father,son and holy ghost are three distinct personages, each a god, united in purpose. And they believe that they can become gods by reaching exhaultation in the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom

Which means they are not monotheistic. (I think the term someone used was henotheistic or something like that)

I can fully understand why they vehemently deny the accusation that they are “not Christian”…Let me tell you even when I was a Mormon I knew I WAS Christian…I know what the Lord ment to me even then…And for someone to tell me that I wasnt was arrogant to me…

They had no idea what was in my heart…they didnt know the kind of relationship I had with the Lord…

That is why I will tell anyone who asks me…Yes they are Christians but in a non-traditional sense…

Hope that makes sense…

I for one have no problem with being accounted a “non-Traditional Christian” We are not traditional, or Orthodox, or orthodox. We’re just…Christian.

 

[dianaiad]

Thank you for your honesty and for standing up for what you believe in even if others disagree.

I can respect that kind of integrity.

The problem isn’t denying that we believe that Adam and Michael are the same person. The problem comes when that is extrapolated into the Adam/God theory.

 

[Marie5890]

Dear Jo Ann.

You believe that Joseph Smith has been ‘proven’ to be this or that…but obviously he has not been proven so to the 14,000,000 or so Mormons who believe that he was indeed a prophet.

Let’s be fair Diana, there are not 14 million BELIEVING and practicing Mormons in the world…many have fallen away…retention rates after a year for the newly baptised converts in quite low…Ask the ward clerks throughout the world…

Those are just the numbers that LDS headquarters have…Sorta like the Catholic church saying there are how every hundreds of millions (billions?) of Catholics there are…

In every calling I have ever held the high number of totally and completely inactive was evident…

It’s one thing for either organization to toss out the number that there databases have compiled…

Its completely another thing to claim that is the actual number of hard core believers who are actively engaged in their faith and going to church…

I hope you feel better soon

Prayers…

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, are you telling WMScott that in Mormon dogma that Archangel Michael is not the name for pre-existant Adam?

I can assure you that I was taught that.
Has that dogma changed?

And unless the temple ceremony has changed again, it is taught right in the ceremony.

Please, let’s not mislead WMScott or anyone else as to what IS doctrine in the Mormon church.

Honesty and integrity is a hallmark virture of righeousness.

Let’s agree at least on that.

Marie5890,

My post said “when you read the posts about Adam or Michael …”. I was agreeing that Adam is Michael the Archangel.

What I disagreed with is the statement that was taken out of context and was incomplete that said “he is our father and our God…” I also didn’t have time to lay the kind of foundation that would allow for an explanation about that incomplete quote.

Zerinus,
That is the reason I said a person will be sifted at some point as to whether they have the Holy Spirit with them, or not. I don’t think a person will understand Brigham Young’s words without having the Holy Spirit with them. (I don’t know if you missed the post by someone who cited Brigham Young’s incomplete quote.)

To the general reader:

Adam is Michael the Archangel. If you want to learn about his roles, read Daniel 7 and Revelation 12. He does play a leading role in the on-going history of this world. His posterity included Mary, of course, who is the mother of Jesus Christ. He did help organize this world, and was sent to this world as the progenitor of the human race. The sealings in LDS temples will eventually place him in the position of being able to present his posterity to Jesus Christ for Christ to be the Advocate and Judge of all humankind, and those who have been sealed and linked to Adam and Eve through their covenants and the authority of the priesthood, will be exalted through the power given by the Father to Jesus Christ.

Adam is our great-great-great-etc. grandfather. He was righteous. Eve was righteous. They came to understand the plan of salvation and the saving role of Jesus Christ, and rejoiced in that plan. They do have an intense personal interest in the well-being of their posterity. That would include all of us. I am completely grateful to them for their lives and their choices.

 

[dianaiad]

Let’s be fair Diana, there are not 14 million BELIEVING and practicing Mormons in the world…many have fallen away…retention rates after a year for the newly baptised converts in quite low…Ask the ward clerks throughout the world…

Those are just the numbers that LDS headquarters have…Sorta like the Catholic church saying there are how every hundreds of millions (billions?) of Catholics there are…

In every calling I have ever held the high number of totally and completely inactive was evident…

It’s one thing for either organization to toss out the number that there databases have compiled…

Its completely another thing to claim that is the actual number of hard core believers who are actively engaged in their faith and going to church…

And that’s all you got from my post…the fact that not all 14000000 Mormons are Temple Worthy?

(sigh)

I’m not up to citing percentages of active Mormons vs. “observing” Catholics, but that has been done–and rather to the embarrassment of the Catholics. OK, though. Let’s alter that a bit. instead of 14 million, let’s cut that down to what the studies over the world say that is actually going on; the number of people who self identify as being ‘believing Mormons,’ and identifying themselves as that. That number is, well…around 14,000,000, if you include the children. Of those who actually go to CHURCH at all, the number is about 7,000,000, about half.

Does that make you feel better? That’s still a fair number of people.

 

[Marie5890]

And that’s all you got from my post…the fact that not all 14000000 Mormons are Temple Worthy?

(sigh)

I’m not up to citing percentages of active Mormons vs. “observing” Catholics, but that has been done–and rather to the embarrassment of the Catholics. OK, though. Let’s alter that a bit. instead of 14 million, let’s cut that down to what the studies over the world say that is actually going on; the number of people who self identify as being ‘believing Mormons,’ and identifying themselves as that. That number is, well…around 14,000,000, if you include the children. Of those who actually go to CHURCH at all, the number is about 7,000,000, about half.

Does that make you feel better? That’s still a fair number of people.

What would make me feel better is if you could point me to those hard core studies where 14Million people self-identify as LDS.

14 Million is my understanding is the number that is put out by the LDS church at general conference as per their accounting department.

I have never heard that that number is an objective number put out by an unbiased entity.

Woiuld love if you could show me that documentation.

 

[wmscott]

At the recommendation of dianaiad, I have gone out and researched what happens in a Mormon temple. Saw all of the beautiful architecture and decorations. And then stumbling on the Kolob thing, I really need to disengage from this thread. Although I fully recognize and respect each persons right to worship the way the choose, I have even defended the right to religious freedom with over twenty years of military service, I would not want to denigrate or disrespect any one of you. I feel if I continue it would start to disintegrate and turn inflammatory. So for my part I am going to just observe and stay out of it. Thanks to all of the LDS folks who had patients with me and my questions. Peace.

 

[Rocket_Man]

When practiced properly (and the polygamist groups that operate now don’t do that.) the women and the men are EQUAL PARTNERS in a Family relationship.

John Rowe Moyle was a master of stonework who was responsible for carving the “Holiness to the Lord” stone upon the east side of the temple in Salt Lake City. On Temple Square, there’s a sculptor of John Rowe Hoyle pushing a handcart with his first wife Phillippa Beer. But that doesn’t tell the whole story.

John was also practicing polygamy. When Phillippa Beer his first wife was around 50 years old, John also married Mary Ann Williams and fathered two children with her. She was much younger and much prettier than Phillippa Bear.

Here is a picture of Phillippa Beer.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/Rondas-Pictures/Moyle_Phillipa_Beer

And a picture of Mary Ann Williams.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/album02/Moyle_Mary_Ann_Williams

Below is a link to a sketch of the home where John kept his first wife, Phillippa Bear.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/Rondas-Pictures/Alpine_Hse_aftr_addtn_c1917_18

Followed by a link to a sketch of the shack where John Rowe Moyle had tucked his other plural wife, Mary Ann Williams.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/album02/Mary_Ann_Williams_Moyle_house_drawing

Equality, in my opinion, was far from practiced in this polygamist marriage.

 

[PaulDupre]

Adam and Eve were exalted beings before this world was, embodied, and our spirit parents. The idea was that the Father, Adam, came to this earth in his resurrected body with “one of his wives” Eve. As they partook of earthly food their resurrected bodies became corrupted, “fell”, and became mortal. Adam and Eve came to earth as exalted beings but by eating earthy foods become earthy themselves.

This has always interested me. Did Brigham Young and his followers who believed this really think that a god could become mortal by eating certain foods? That means that “heavenly father”, if he didn’t watch his diet, would become corrupted and mortal. It means the Mormon god is only conditionally immortal and eternal; should heavenly father slip up and scarf down a burger and fries, the Mormons would be suddenly godless. Well, no matter, there is an infinite number of gods out there. One of them would probably step up and take over for his brother god.

 

[PaulDupre]

John Rowe Moyle was a master of stonework who was responsible for carving the “Holiness to the Lord” stone upon the east side of the temple in Salt Lake City. On Temple Square, there’s a sculptor of John Rowe Hoyle pushing a handcart with his first wife Phillippa Beer. But that doesn’t tell the whole story.

John was also practicing polygamy. When Phillippa Beer his first wife was around 50 years old, John also married Mary Ann Williams and fathered two children with her. She was much younger and much prettier than Phillippa Bear.

Here is a picture of Phillippa Beer.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/Rondas-Pictures/Moyle_Phillipa_Beer

And a picture of Mary Ann Williams.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/album02/Moyle_Mary_Ann_Williams

Below is a link to a sketch of the home where John kept his first wife, Phillippa Bear.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/Rondas-Pictures/Alpine_Hse_aftr_addtn_c1917_18

Followed by a link to a sketch of the shack where John Rowe Moyle had tucked his other plural wife, Mary Ann Williams.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/album02/Mary_Ann_Williams_Moyle_house_drawing

Equality, in my opinion, was far from practiced in this polygamist marriage.

I’ll bet Phillippa was a better cook.

 

[joann1957]

Dear Jo Ann.

I am a Mormon. I’ve been one all my 60 years of life. I’m the product of Mormons. I was raised with the faith, and the beliefs, and they all make FAR more sense to me than any other belief system I have ever run across, including Catholicism, Protestantism (all the many types,) and any other 'ism.

You believe that Joseph Smith has been ‘proven’ to be this or that…but obviously he has not been proven so to the 14,000,000 or so Mormons who believe that he was indeed a prophet. You claim that the Book of Mormon has been ‘proven’ false…but it has not. I has not been proven true, either—but for that matter, neither has the Bible been scientifically proven true. That’s what faith is all about. Your horrified, gasping exclamation of disbelief that anyone could believe, or accept, the things we do is simply a repeat of the sort of unending, absolutely stultifying and useless, rhetoric that we have to put up with all the time.

If you have an actual QUESTION, rather than some further grand declaration of outraged huff, I would be more than happy to answer it.

Diana, who is tired, has the flu, feels like the stuff rabbits chew, and has NO patience for this stuff tonight.

**

The Bible tells us Michael is an angel, which is not the same species as God or man. Of course the Bibles conflict with Mormon theology does not matter when they listen to their modern prophets over Moses and those who came after him.

Jesus said no man has seen the Father except he as the Son (Jn.1:18,6:46) but Joseph claims that the Father came to earth (with Jesus) looking like a man; because Mormons believe he is a man. So when god the Father appeared to Joseph along with one of his spirit sons, He was actually Adam who is the Father/god and Michael an angel. “Who was the Savior begotten by?.

…Who did beget him? His Father, and his father is our God, and the Father of our spirits, and he is the framer of the body, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who is he? He is Father Adam; Michael; the Ancient of Days” (President Brigham Young, Feb. 19, 1854, Brigham Young Collection, LDS Archives)

Mormons acknowledge that they have a different Jesus. And it is not just some things that are different because of semantics but the very nature of man and God are completely different. None of these are insignificant to be over looked because its challenges history and the very words recorded in the Bible**.

Joann

 

[Marie5890]

And it is not just some things that are different because of semantics but the very nature of man and God are completely different. None of these are insignificant to be over looked because its challenges history and the very words recorded in the Bible

.

Joann

I would say that is a very fair and accurate statement, esp for early Mormonism.

Present say Mormonism quite different from it’s early teachings is another fair and accurate statement.

It has significantly changed.

JMO

 

[dianaiad]

John Rowe Moyle was a master of stonework who was responsible for carving the “Holiness to the Lord” stone upon the east side of the temple in Salt Lake City. On Temple Square, there’s a sculptor of John Rowe Hoyle pushing a handcart with his first wife Phillippa Beer. But that doesn’t tell the whole story.

John was also practicing polygamy. When Phillippa Beer his first wife was around 50 years old, John also married Mary Ann Williams and fathered two children with her. She was much younger and much prettier than Phillippa Bear.

Here is a picture of Phillippa Beer.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/Rondas-Pictures/Moyle_Phillipa_Beer

And a picture of Mary Ann Williams.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/album02/Moyle_Mary_Ann_Williams

Below is a link to a sketch of the home where John kept his first wife, Phillippa Bear.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/Rondas-Pictures/Alpine_Hse_aftr_addtn_c1917_18

Followed by a link to a sketch of the shack where John Rowe Moyle had tucked his other plural wife, Mary Ann Williams.
johnrowemoyle.org/jrm/gallery/album02/Mary_Ann_Williams_Moyle_house_drawing

Equality, in my opinion, was far from practiced in this polygamist marriage.

What part of 'when practiced properly," and “some did and some did not” practice it properly, and 'polygamy is HARD to practice properly" and “the polygamist groups of today do not practice it properly” part of my posts seem to have missed your attention?

I also have examples of improperly practiced polygamy…and in my opinion, that’s the biggest reason it went belly up, is because it is hard to do. Oh, I don’t think the WOMEN have the problems, but the men aren’t righteous enough. In order to practice it properly, the men have to actually admit that the women are indeed equal in all ways…intrinsically.

Men have never been able to do that.

 

[kikkichan]

… 'polygamy is HARD to practice properly" …

I look forward to the day when monogamy is practiced properly!

–kc

 

[dianaiad]

The Bible tells us Michael is an angel, which is not the same species as God or man. Of course the Bibles conflict with Mormon theology does not matter when they listen to their modern prophets over Moses and those who came after him.

“Angel” means "messenger,’ and we believe that angels are NOT a separate species. They are people who have specific jobs. Which, by the way, makes a WHOLE lot more sense to me.

[Jesus said no man has seen the Father except he as the Son (Jn.1:18,6:46) but Joseph claims that the Father came to earth (with Jesus) looking like a man; because Mormons believe he is a man. So when god the Father appeared to Joseph along with one of his spirit sons, He was actually Adam who is the Father/god and Michael an angel. “Who was the Savior begotten by?.

We WHAT? I’m trying to untangle that one…is this what YOU believe actually happened, or what you think WE believe actually happened? Either way…it’s incorrect. We believe that God the Father (not Adam, who we believe is Michael, but is NOT God the Father) appeared to Joseph Smith right along with His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. That’s what we believe.

.

…Who did beget him? His Father, and his father is our God, and the Father of our spirits, and he is the framer of the body, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who is he? He is Father Adam; Michael; the Ancient of Days” (President Brigham Young, Feb. 19, 1854, Brigham Young Collection, LDS Archives)

Don’t you believe that Adam is the father of our physical selves? Isn’t he the first father of men, physically? So do we believe that. As to what Brigham Young said, Joanne…I still have the flu, and I’m still irritable, but I’m trying very hard here. Brigham Young was a prophet and great leader. NOBODY denies that he, as a leader of a disorganized and disheartened people, was the right person to do the job that needed doing at the time. But even he often admitted that not everything he said was to be taken as scripture…he was a man with some very strong opinions, and WE ARE NOT REQUIRED TO TREAT EVERYTHING HE SAID AS SCRIPTURE AND DOCTRINE. The only people who DO treat every thing he said as scripture and doctrine are the anti’s, and that’s a pretty stupid thing to do, don’t you think? Did Brigham Young teach the Adam/God theory? Well, yeah. He did. Did anybody ELSE? Not so much, no. Do we believe it as he seemed to have taught it? Well, no. We don’t. We do honor Adam very much–but we do not believe he is God.

I suggest, then, that you put that one on your ‘shelf of strawman attacks’ and go on to the next thing.

[Mormons acknowledge that they have a different Jesus.

No we don’t. We believe in the Jesus of Nazareth Who was born to the virgin Mary, the Only Begotten Son of God, Who attended a Temple at about 12 and confounded the leaders there, Who served a three year stint as a Teacher and Leader, Who sacrified Himself upon the Cross, died and was resurrected upon the third day, thereby atoning for our sins. Isn’t that the same Jesus you believe in?

Or is there another Jesus out there that was, perhaps, born in some alternate universe/timeline that you lay claim to, so that we are talking about different Men, here?

Dang, I am so TIRED of this.

And it is not just some things that are different because of semantics but the very nature of man and God are completely different. None of these are insignificant to be over looked because its challenges history and the very words recorded in the Bible.

Joann

[/quote]

Joann, with all due respect, please get your information about what Mormons believe from, y’know, real Mormons. You probably won’t come to believe in Mormonism any more than you do right now, but at least you will then be arguing with the real thing and not this strawman version that the evangelical Protestant counter-cult ‘let’s make lots of money attacking everybody we don’t like’ groups have been feeding you.
[/quote]

 

[dianaiad]

I look forward to the day when monogamy is practiced properly!

–kc

Good point.

 

[zerinus]

At the recommendation of dianaiad, I have gone out and researched what happens in a Mormon temple. Saw all of the beautiful architecture and decorations. And then stumbling on the Kolob thing, I really need to disengage from this thread. Although I fully recognize and respect each persons right to worship the way the choose, I have even defended the right to religious freedom with over twenty years of military service, I would not want to denigrate or disrespect any one of you. I feel if I continue it would start to disintegrate and turn inflammatory. So for my part I am going to just observe and stay out of it. Thanks to all of the LDS folks who had patients with me and my questions. Peace.

If you really want to find out more about Mormonism, I think you are going the wrong ways about it. The best way is to get hold of a copy of the Book of Mormon and read it. After you have read it, if you are still interested in finding out more, you can read more of the sacred literature of the Church, or if you prefer attend Church a couple of times, preferably with a Mormon friend who can show you around, introduce you to people, and explain to you what the different lessons and meetings mean.

 

[maryjk]

What part of 'when practiced properly," and “some did and some did not” practice it properly, and 'polygamy is HARD to practice properly" and “the polygamist groups of today do not practice it properly” part of my posts seem to have missed your attention?

I also have examples of improperly practiced polygamy…and in my opinion, that’s the biggest reason it went belly up, is because it is hard to do. Oh, I don’t think the WOMEN have the problems, but the men aren’t righteous enough. In order to practice it properly, the men have to actually admit that the women are indeed equal in all ways…intrinsically.

Men have never been able to do that.

Do you have examples of polygamy practiced right? Somewhere a woman wrote in her (published) diary how happy she was that her husband took another, younger, prettier wife. How happy she was that he wasn’t with her every evening? How much she loved taking care of the children of her husband’s other wives?

How many times, published info only please, was polygamy practiced right, where the husband took a much older wife?

I only ask because of the numerous books and writings of women that felt they were set aside for the younger wife.