Do LDS Prophets Really Talk To God?

[Jerusha]

Ccc #41:

all creatures bear a certain resemblance to god, most especially man, created in the image and likeness of god. The manifold perfections of creatures—their truth, their goodness, their beauty—all reflect the infinite perfection of god. Consequently we can name god by taking his creatures’ perfections as our starting point, "for from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their creator."15

 

[Telstar]

Thanks. I am firming up my argument on the topic, and waiting for at least one Catholic work on the Trinity and original sin. I am a psychologist, not a theologian.

LOL… I’m about as far from a ‘theologian’ as you can get. I got my GED (high school equivalent) @ 34 so I could take some college level bookkeeping classes, so I’m pretty much an uneducated schmuck!

If you’re looking for works on those topics, the New Advent website always has good stuff, mostly from reliable Catholic sources, with cross references. I use their site many times when I’m looking for something about specific teachings of the Church, or the works of Early Fathers, etc… Here’s what they have on The Blessed Trinity and Original Sin.

 

[Nicea325]

There is absolutely no proof that Joseph Smith saw Jesus, God the Father or any Angels.

He saw them after he pounded the whole bottle of Whiskey…

 

[KathleenGee]

Telstar …and Jerusah, you both do very well…

The Catechism provides our beliefs…man was made in the image of God by intellect and free will…and given his immortal soul. Man himself has provided alot of suffering and sorrow to the rest of mankind…so we do well to keep our focus on Christ and be with those whose lives animate Christ…

 

[1voice]

Five pages of postings, but no one has really addressed the OP’s quotations, except to hint that they might be from “unofficial sources.”

Do Mormon posters affirm all these statements? Do they feel that some are in error? I would like to see more discussion of the details of these statements.

Perhaps we could start with Joseph Fielding Smith and his comments on travel to the moon. What was the context? Was this prophecy, or just personal opinion? Was there a theological reason why he was convinced men would never land on the moon, was he just ignorant of science, or did he just dislike Kennedy, but when speaking on other matters he remained a thoroughly accurate prophet?

There isnt much that can be said. My experience is that questions like this … posed with the obvious intent of harsh confrontation … are ignored by most of the LDS participants on the board.
My impression, as a result of many conversations, is that Mormons dont think that there is any significant difference between their concept of God and his redemption of man and that of other mainline denominations. When asked specifically why the founders and leaders of the LDS church were so confrontational and anti Christian … They respond by saying that it is not true and is based in false statements that have gone viral as well as simple misunderstandings. The most current response I have gotten is … if you look hard enough you will find a loose cannon in every religion… and the exception is not the rule. They ignore the fact that the inflammatory stuff was spoken by their highest/most respected leaders and founders.
They give the strong impression that they just want to put all that in the past and be accepted as friends and Christians with a different view of spiritual things.

 

[JHow]

There isnt much that can be said. My experience is that questions like this … posed with the obvious intent of harsh confrontation … are ignored by most of the LDS participants on the board.
My impression, as a result of many conversations, is that Mormons dont think that there is any significant difference between their concept of God and his redemption of man and that of other mainline denominations. When asked specifically why the founders and leaders of the LDS church were so confrontational and anti Christian … They respond by saying that it is not true and is based in false statements that have gone viral as well as simple misunderstandings. The most current response I have gotten is … if you look hard enough you will find a loose cannon in every religion… and the exception is not the rule. They ignore the fact that the inflammatory stuff was spoken by their highest/most respected leaders and founders.
They give the strong impression that they just want to put all that in the past and be accepted as friends and Christians with a different view of spiritual things.

Well. It’s a pity. The moon thing particularly interests me. Not knowing the context, I would simply assume it was the position of a crank or just ignorance. For instance, I ran across a quote about Robt. Goddard from a 1921 NYT editorial:

Professor Goddard…does not know the relation of action and reaction; [rockets] need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the knowledge ladled out daily in high schools.

So, ignorance of science is not limited to religious leaders and I personally don’t find it too troubling if a religious leader turns out to be completely wrong about science.

So my question was whether JF Smith was simply giving a strong opinion or whether there was some religious reason why he thought the moon-walk was not going to happen.

 

[SteveVH]

One here can believe what they want ---- I left Catholicism years ago because I was not given my choice to become a Catholic without it being forced on me in childhood.

The Holy Ghost has confirmed to me what my church professes — I recognize some here are not interested in hearing that or otherwise. That is your choice — my choice for 25 years now is to remain loyal, in spite those outside of the church.

For me, prior to joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I learned what I did not as a child and as I stated, I had to become a Catholic as a child, with no decision to say no and not join.

As a Latter Day Saint, I certainly had a choice to join or not — certainly respecting anyone’s choice to become a member or walk away and become a member. Again as a Catholic, my choice was not recognized.

I was just reading through this thread as I have been away from CAF for some time. I realize that this post is relatively old but I cannot help but comment.

As I understand it, you left the Catholic Church based upon the fact that you received the faith as a child and therefore feel that that you had no choice in the matter. The obvious question is, does not this same logic apply to Mormon children, or are Mormon children not allowed to join the faith until they reach adulthood? Most of us receive our faith from our parents. We always have the choice to either accept or reject it as we enter into adulthood.

More importantly, do you realize that the reason for leaving the faith of your parents had nothing to do with the truth of that faith, but rather because you felt that it was somehow forced upon you? When we consider the ultimate reason for believing in anything, should it not be based upon what we believe to be true, rather than the circumstances under which we received it?

Just wondering.

God bless.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CourtAdvocate
One here can believe what they want ---- I left Catholicism years ago because I was not given my choice to become a Catholic without it being forced on me in childhood.

Were you given a choice about going to school or was it also being forced? I always hear this from so many ex-Catholics and Catholics alike. Did Mary and Joseph force Judaism on Jesus or was he given a choice to decide?

 

[HonoraDominum]

The sad part is that only my ex-Mo peeps (shoutout to ParkerD and Rebecca) understand why these arguments happen over and over. There is no winning them, as the Mormons believe based on “feelings”. They, and by they I include myself as I was raised Mormon, are trained from a young child a particular form of circular logic that allows all arguments to end with “I don’t care what you tell me, I know the church is true, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, I know the Book of Mormon is the true word of God, I know blah blah blah …” No amount of trying to convince otherwise is going to make a difference.

But I do appreciate the ex-Mos on the board bringing the truth about what the Mormons on the boards say to the forefront. We know we’re never going to convince them of the truth, because nothing can do that except by a supernatural grace from God (that we ex-Mos have all experienced intimately). That conversion tends to be a two-fold process, first of leaving the LDS church, then finding the truth. I’ve never met an ex-Mormon anything that left the LDS church for something better or different. They always first have to confront the lies, and then once they have been mostly purged from that experience they then discover the truth in the Catholic church.

But I digress. I know that my apostolate is not to convert Mormons to Catholicism, but to keep the wickedness and snares of the devil in white shirts, ties and name badges away from Catholics who are walking a rough and narrow path towards God. It it very easy to get sucked into one small lie and let the “burning in the bosom” convince you that it is right. I pray constantly that God will give those who love Him who are caught in the quicksand of LDS theology the grace to find Him as He really is, not what Joseph Smith and LDS, Inc. make him out to be.

Please pray with me, my Catholic brothers and sisters, that God will protect us from the lies spewed by the Mormons on this board, and that our sufferings will be salvific for the sanctification of our souls and the conversion of the sinners in the LDS church. Yes, this is war, war for our very souls, and Satan is luring Catholics away in droves in Latin America and other traditionally Catholic lands. We must protect each other from the abomination that is the Book of Mormon.

Mary, Queen of Carmel, pray for us. Saint Teresa Benedicta, pray for us.

 

[theidler]

The sad part is that only my ex-Mo peeps (shoutout to ParkerD and Rebecca) understand why these arguments happen over and over. There is no winning them, as the Mormons believe based on “feelings”. They, and by they I include myself as I was raised Mormon, are trained from a young child a particular form of circular logic that allows all arguments to end with “I don’t care what you tell me, I know the church is true, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, I know the Book of Mormon is the true word of God, I know blah blah blah …” No amount of trying to convince otherwise is going to make a difference.

But I do appreciate the ex-Mos on the board bringing the truth about what the Mormons on the boards say to the forefront. We know we’re never going to convince them of the truth, because nothing can do that except by a supernatural grace from God (that we ex-Mos have all experienced intimately). That conversion tends to be a two-fold process, first of leaving the LDS church, then finding the truth. I’ve never met an ex-Mormon anything that left the LDS church for something better or different. They always first have to confront the lies, and then once they have been mostly purged from that experience they then discover the truth in the Catholic church.

But I digress. I know that my apostolate is not to convert Mormons to Catholicism, but to keep the wickedness and snares of the devil in white shirts, ties and name badges away from Catholics who are walking a rough and narrow path towards God. It it very easy to get sucked into one small lie and let the “burning in the bosom” convince you that it is right. I pray constantly that God will give those who love Him who are caught in the quicksand of LDS theology the grace to find Him as He really is, not what Joseph Smith and LDS, Inc. make him out to be.

Please pray with me, my Catholic brothers and sisters, that God will protect us from the lies spewed by the Mormons on this board, and that our sufferings will be salvific for the sanctification of our souls and the conversion of the sinners in the LDS church. Yes, this is war, war for our very souls, and Satan is luring Catholics away in droves in Latin America and other traditionally Catholic lands. We must protect each other from the abomination that is the Book of Mormon.

Mary, Queen of Carmel, pray for us. Saint Teresa Benedicta, pray for us.

WOW. Now this is a refreshing post.:aok:

 

[RebeccaJ]

The sad part is that only my ex-Mo peeps (shoutout to ParkerD and Rebecca) understand why these arguments happen over and over. There is no winning them, as the Mormons believe based on “feelings”. They, and by they I include myself as I was raised Mormon, are trained from a young child a particular form of circular logic that allows all arguments to end with “I don’t care what you tell me, I know the church is true, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, I know the Book of Mormon is the true word of God, I know blah blah blah …” No amount of trying to convince otherwise is going to make a difference.

But I do appreciate the ex-Mos on the board bringing the truth about what the Mormons on the boards say to the forefront. We know we’re never going to convince them of the truth, because nothing can do that except by a supernatural grace from God (that we ex-Mos have all experienced intimately). That conversion tends to be a two-fold process, first of leaving the LDS church, then finding the truth. I’ve never met an ex-Mormon anything that left the LDS church for something better or different. They always first have to confront the lies, and then once they have been mostly purged from that experience they then discover the truth in the Catholic church.

But I digress. I know that my apostolate is not to convert Mormons to Catholicism, but to keep the wickedness and snares of the devil in white shirts, ties and name badges away from Catholics who are walking a rough and narrow path towards God. It it very easy to get sucked into one small lie and let the “burning in the bosom” convince you that it is right. I pray constantly that God will give those who love Him who are caught in the quicksand of LDS theology the grace to find Him as He really is, not what Joseph Smith and LDS, Inc. make him out to be.

Please pray with me, my Catholic brothers and sisters, that God will protect us from the lies spewed by the Mormons on this board, and that our sufferings will be salvific for the sanctification of our souls and the conversion of the sinners in the LDS church. Yes, this is war, war for our very souls, and Satan is luring Catholics away in droves in Latin America and other traditionally Catholic lands. We must protect each other from the abomination that is the Book of Mormon.

Mary, Queen of Carmel, pray for us. Saint Teresa Benedicta, pray for us.

I’ve been conversing with Mormons online and offline my whole life. Went through a long phase where the very existence of Mormonism angered me to no end, because of the lies, and more directly, the false gods of Mormonism. I asked God for a long time why Mormonism exists. Can’t say I have an answer but I trust God has a purpose for everything. Including false gods and false teachings.

God’s grace led me by a long, convoluted, and at times very dark path, to Jesus Christ. Who is Truth. I lost that anger. It has been replaced with love, which is a most surprising thing.

Most devout LDS I know have a desire to follow Jesus Christ, which, is a good aspect about Mormonism. Mormons only need to see the clear path given to us, the Way, who is Jesus Christ. Which isn’t the person who Mormons call by the same name. That path isn’'t found in Mormonism. The struggle as a Mormon to find that path is such an impossible and frustrating endeavor. The Truth is easy, beautiful, profound and simply floors me.

I don’t have any desire to “fix” Mormons, though I have no doubt that is why Mormons are here. They think we are broken, which we are, but not in a surface fashion, Smith’s idea of a “true church”. That is just theatrics. Reality is our need, and our need is only filled in, by and through Jesus Christ. There is no other name by which we are saved. Certainly, the name “Joseph Smith Jr.” has nothing to do with our salvation. Our need isn’t filled by that name. It is a false prophet who declares otherwise.

 

[HonoraDominum]

God’s grace led me by a long, convoluted, and at times very dark path, to Jesus Christ. Who is Truth. I lost that anger. It has been replaced with love, which is a most surprising thing.

Most devout LDS I know have a desire to follow Jesus Christ, which, is a good aspect about Mormonism. Mormons only need to see the clear path given to us, the Way, who is Jesus Christ. Which isn’t the person who Mormons call by the same name. That path isn’'t found in Mormonism. The struggle as a Mormon to find that path is such an impossible and frustrating endeavor. The Truth is easy, beautiful, profound and simply floors me.

DING DING DING we have a winner! You nailed it on the head - it’s all about love. And it’s so amazingly simple. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in its very first paragraph:

God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

As always, when I find myself at a loss of words, I can find a phrase from my beloved sister in Carmel, little Thérèse, that sums up what I am trying to say:

Chapters Twelve and Thirteen of the First Epistle to the Corinthians fell under my eyes, I read there, in the first of these chapters, that all cannot be apostles, prophets, doctors, and so on, that the Church is composed of different members, and that the eye cannot be the hand at one and the same time.

The answer was clear, but it did not fulfill my desires and gave me no peace. Without becoming discouraged, I continued my reading, and this sentence consoled me: ‘yet strive after the better gifts, and I point out to you a yet more excellent way.’ And the Apostle explains how all the most perfect gifts are nothing without love. That charity is the excellent way that leads most surely to God.

I finally had rest. Considering the mystical body of the Church, I had not recognized myself in any of the members described by Saint Paul, or rather I desired to see myself in them all. Charity gave me the key to my vocation.

I understood that if the Church had a body composed of different members, the most necessary and most noble of all could not be lacking to it, and so I understood that the Church had a heart and that this heart was burning with love. I understood it was love alone that made the Church’s members act, that if love ever became extinct, apostles would not preach the Gospel and martyrs would not shed their blood. I understood that love comprised all vocations, that love was everything, that it embraced all times and places … in a word, that it was eternal!

Then, in the excess of my delirious joy, I cried our: 'O Jesus, my Love … my vocation, at last I have found it… my vocation is Love!'

Yes, I have found my place in the Church and it is You, O my God, Who have given me this place: in the heart of the Church, my mother, I shall be love. Thus I shall be everything, and thus my dream will be realized.

My sweet Thérèse has taught me to simply run into the arms of Christ and live in His beautiful and infinite love for me. How simple is that love compared to the twisted complications of life as a Mormon? How many times did I lose my peace when I had no consolation as I read the scriptures, as I attended Sacrament meeting, as I performed ceremonies in the temple? And yet I look back now and realize, I did these things out of duty, out of fear for my soul, and never once looked at God and simply smiled in adoration and love. How lost I was! How wretched I was! And yet with His sanctifying grace, I walk now in unity with Him, striving every moment to do nothing but His holy will for me. I pray constantly for the grace to do His holy will so that I may spend eternity with Him in love. I pray as the cup is lifted to Him in the prayer of the holy mass that I may be purified and sanctified so that I may become a worthy tabernacle of the sacrifice of his Love. It’s all about love and about unity with Him right here, right now.

As a Mormon, the one scripture that was the foundation of why our church came to be was James 1:5 - “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” As a Catholic, this one tends to mean much more to me:

[BIBLEDRB]John 17:26[/BIBLEDRB]

Or to quote Saint John of the Cross, “O my God, make me understand that I am Your dwelling-place, the hiding place where You conceal Yourself. Have courage and rejoice, my soul, knowing that the object of your hope is so near to you that He dwells in you and you cannot exist without Him. What more could I desire, and what do I seek outside of myself, O my Lord and my God, when You have deigned to put Your kingdom, Your dwelling-place, in my very soul? Here, then, in the innermost sanctuary of my heart, I wish to love, desire, and adore You; no, I shall no longer go to seek You outside myself.” (cf. St John of the Cross, Spiritual Canticle 1,7.8)

 

[KathleenGee]

All good…

The real truth, however, is that Mormonism in its belief is contrary to Catholicism, as well as how it originated.

And the conversations with Mormons is very devious because they are now propagandizing that their religion and ours is the same. I personally believe there are Mormons who have a sincere relationship with Christ, and have believed that for some time.

But when they come on to CAF, there are the lies, in terms of Scripture, ‘we believe but then we don’t believe’, the sophistry…that the thread becomes very confusing to someone wanting to find out the truth of the situation, thus hijacking the truth of Catholicism…they even going so far now in the past decade to use Catholicism against itself.

Like on their King James Bible show that aired awhile back on tv, it was using a scenario in a Catholic church with a foppish priest speaking at the altar, and the commentator saying how it is recorded that people would even get up and leave to go back to the church to listen to someone reading the Bible…not realizing that the priest on the altar was preaching the Gospel and the Old and New Testament readings, and teaching them…ours an oral tradition…I found it very low class and had not seen such kind of program for some time on religious stations…I mean, the foundation of Mormonism is against Catholicism, the Mormons know it…although the general population doesn’t have quite the sentiment of past…

The ‘castigation’ of Mormonism towards Catholicism,…the Jews didn’t carry Bibles around with them in ancient Israel, the Orthodox didn’t…and yet, Catholics in times prior to the printing press didn’t either…and most people until recently couldn’t read.

The other that I am reading and hearing of others’ testimonies…is that when a Catholic becomes a Mormon, the event is a real trophy to them…we have former Mormon converts to Catholicism but don’t give them honors or parade them around…they are simply incorporated into the Church and become like everyone else…there is EWTN that has a program called, ‘Jouney Home’…but the tone of the program is level, sharing their faith journey.

So again, you have to be careful on CAF not to allow Mormons with all their ploys hijack a thread into confusion. Our threads are meant to educate those who come to them.
Mormons read the spirit of man into just about anything that moves in Catholicism, ignoring intent and context, and staking it for their own…

There are Mormons who believe it will be sooner rather than later when they take over the Catholic Church…what they mean by that…is debatable as well.

We must continue to pray for their conversion to the truth, to the One True God of order and rationality…and universal love.

 

[hosemonkey]

So, at the end of the day, as I have stated so many times before here, and in spite of all their protestations to the contrary, mormons are stuck with a false “prophet”, a false doctrine and a false religion. This whole bogus construction is supported by nothing more than a “burning in the bosom” which is entirely subjective and is in no way verifiable. It was constructed out of the imaginings of a known con-man and perpetuated by his henchmen, driven by carnal lust and a hunger for power. The thing that is truly amazing, and which is a tribute to the gullibility of flawed humans, is the fact that this con-game has grown and spread. People, I guess, would rather have fantasy than truth. Amazing. The saving grace is, I guess, the fact that most people wake up after being addicted for a while, and leave the cult." None so blind as those who will not see."

 

[KathleenGee]

And as such…with splitting their beliefs in Scripture to I don’t I do, and then using the Book of Mormon as interpreter…the differentiations can become very obscure at times…and things going in circles…

I think we need to redefine our parameters when conversing with Mormons…how far to go…

I also don’t think it right…considering the truth of the Catholic faith, to be used as testimony on CAF…after being shown the particular source is already given the true context by Catholic posters…to see the Mormons come back and again use our sources to prove their beliefs…

To be as gods blasphemes our faith in the One, True God.

We should have dialogue with Mormons…but we need boundaries…and it shouldn’t be a place for them to spout lies or denials about the fullness of Mormon teachings…they are always being modified or the posters given set answers to raised concerns…all very devious.

How far to go with deliberate deviousness???

Christ is Truth.

 

[Tony888]

Kathleen, reading your post you are saying
You have the right to tell me what I really believe
I don’t have the right to disagree with you or reference legitimate RCC sources of doctrine.

If we were wrestlers, you would only wrestle if I had one hand and a foot tied behind my back. That seems very insecure in your faith.

 

[KathleenGee]

Tony888

Remember your insistence that CCC460 meant to you we become gods? And I wrote out for you going back to a number of CCC passages leading up to the passage, plus the explanation of the footnotes…and you still insisted that CCC460 was instead ‘proof’ the Catholic Church had early Christian fathers professing the same as the Mormons?

To the contrary, SS Irenaeus and Athanasius were speaking the exact opposite, and you still continued to make them and the texts say what they did not?

We provide the truth of our faith and its proper meanings…and as visiting Mormons…you shouldn’t argue and then insist they mean Mormonism.

That is pretty simple to understand…and honest.

A few honest corrections and explanation are not a wrestling match.

Mormonism cannot stand up to Catholicism…the other being its lack of consistent teachings and unverified claims…many times these addressed here on CAF.

I don’t even bother going to Mormon forums either. What am I to prove to those Mormon forums anyway?

 

[theidler]

I’ve been conversing with Mormons online and offline my whole life. Went through a long phase where the very existence of Mormonism angered me to no end, because of the lies, and more directly, the false gods of Mormonism. I asked God for a long time why Mormonism exists. Can’t say I have an answer but I trust God has a purpose for everything. Including false gods and false teachings.

God’s grace led me by a long, convoluted, and at times very dark path, to Jesus Christ. Who is Truth. I lost that anger. It has been replaced with love, which is a most surprising thing.

Most devout LDS I know have a desire to follow Jesus Christ, which, is a good aspect about Mormonism. Mormons only need to see the clear path given to us, the Way, who is Jesus Christ. Which isn’t the person who Mormons call by the same name. That path isn’'t found in Mormonism. The struggle as a Mormon to find that path is such an impossible and frustrating endeavor. The Truth is easy, beautiful, profound and simply floors me.

I don’t have any desire to “fix” Mormons, though I have no doubt that is why Mormons are here. They think we are broken, which we are, but not in a surface fashion, Smith’s idea of a “true church”. That is just theatrics. Reality is our need, and our need is only filled in, by and through Jesus Christ. There is no other name by which we are saved. Certainly, the name “Joseph Smith Jr.” has nothing to do with our salvation. Our need isn’t filled by that name. It is a false prophet who declares otherwise.

That was a beautiful post.

 

[TexanKnight]

Kathleen, reading your post you are saying
You have the right to tell me what I really believe
I don’t have the right to disagree with you or reference legitimate RCC sources of doctrine.

If we were wrestlers, you would only wrestle if I had one hand and a foot tied behind my back. That seems very insecure in your faith.

I do not think she is telling you what you believe. She is correcting you when you say what you believe when we know what has been taught in the past and your ever-changing doctrine

 

[Tony888]

I do not think she is telling you what you believe. She is correcting you when you say what you believe when we know what has been taught in the past and your ever-changing doctrine

No TexanKnight,

If you or Katherine left it at, “Here’s a quote from a previous leader” then we could have a civil discussion on whether it was an honext quote and what it may have meant.

The problem comes from your insistence that the prooftexted quote, not from our scriptures, must be core LDS doctrine. When I discuss RCC theology, I only reference official sources of doctrine

There is great irony between LDS and RCC
RCC Critics always insist the POPE is fallible, when Catholics say he is infallible
LDS critics always insist the President/Prophet is infallible, when we say he isn’t

I have no problem discussing the teachings and possbile specualtion of past LDS leaders, just stop insisting that everthing they uttered must be doctrine and I seceretly believe it. You put me into a corner where it becomes tit for tat - It is tiresome to research past statements by Catholic leaders who have said and done strange things. I realize that just because past Popes did things to Jews that are racist by todays standards doesn’t mean the RCC Church has doctrine that is racist. I understand it was a mistake of the people and not the church. I understand that a modern light often destroys relevant historical context.