Do men have obligation to provide for their family materially?

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Minerva said:
I don’t think it’s a weak argument at all. I brought it up because so many conservative Catholics place adhering to certain gender roles on the level of the Gospel. I’ve been called a bad Catholic (and worse) because I want to be both a mother and a professor. I would just like to see what is the basis for this attitude. Is it in anything Jesus said? NO! Is it implied by anything Jesus said? NO! (unlike the emailing of raunchy pictures - would fit under CHrist’s teachings on lust and chastity). If Christ had touched on the topic of working moms I could understand why it would be so important to certain Catholics. But he didn’t say anything about gender roles or how women and men should follow Him in different manners and the like. It seems that it would be obvious that such issues are non essential to our faith, but to hear some people talk you’d think feminism was the greatest heresy of all time.
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I am not saying it is a “bad” argument, just weak. I didn’t see anyone claiming that Jesus said women should stay home and care for children, but by the same token you can’t say he said women should work outside the home either.

Logically there are huge problems with the “Jesus didn’t say” argument. As I pointed out above there are many things Jesus never addressed. Many of those things were not addressed simply because the concept in question did not exist at the time the gospels were written. Women didn’t work outside the home in Jesus day. It wasn’t even a possibility. In fact very few men worked outside the home. The industrial age with its separation of work and family was over a thousand years in the future.

The other main problem with “Jesus didn’t say” is that it is the same as saying “where in the Bible?” in other words… sola scriptura.

Now, if you want to look in the Bible you will see all Pauline cometary about women and their place in the church. But as Catholics we should not limit ourselves to “Jesus said” as an argument nor hold it as the only standard.
-D
 
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Minerva:
I noticed that no one has yet to show me where Jesus says women should stay home…
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*Titus 2:5: "To be self-controlled, chaste, workers at home, *under the control of their husbands, so that the Word of God may be glorified."
MEN: Genesis 3:19:
"By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat, until you return to the ground, from which you were taken"…
There are so many other references, haven’t time now–but it’s good to look at what the Word says about roles, isn’t it?
 
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sparkle:
Dear St. Ambrose:

YES YES and YES. Our God-given roles are that the man is to provide materially for his family and the woman be the “keeper of the home”. This will never change. This is THE way God designed our society. I think, and have seen from experience that when these roles are reversed, as in our culture, they are and very badly–then it becomes so much harder–as men, as you say, now competing with women for jobs, etc. and really in my professional view, the downfall of families. This key factor I believe, IS THE MAJOR CAUSE of divorce today this most sick reversal of roles. Women are taking on the positions of men, “bringing home the bacon”, men have been made weak by this very fact, thus not being able any more to be providers; marital relations dissolve, kids do not see from example roles as they are meant to be, and all CHAOS breaks out.
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You mentioned this was your professional view - are you a psychologist? If you have a professional view then do you work outside the home?
 
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sparkle:
MEN: Genesis 3:19:
"By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat, until you return to the ground, from which you were taken"…
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Ah, so the men are supposed to be in the hot kitchen baking the bread!!! Just as I suspected! 🙂
 
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asquared:
certainly the state seems to think it is a man’s responsiblity to financially support his family. that’s why they will go after deadbeat dads to collect child support, especially for kids on welfare or ADC. So how do you justify this leap from your first question to the assumption that working women are competing with men for jobs?
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There are a finite number of jobs. The unemployment rate alone right now shows that there aren’t enough for everybody… so if women are holding some of the jobs and there are unemployed men who want a job… then women are competing for men’s jobs.

Also, medical schools, law schools, etc. have fixed class sizes. Every female in the entering class is one less male who will do so. My wife (not for much longer as we are getting divorce) is an M.D. and would be the first person to confirm that women compete with men to enter medical school and thus get a job as a doctor. There were 10,000 applications for 100 seats in her class. If the women had not gone then there would have been qualified males who could have.

I’m not being hateful or angry - just stating a fact that women in the workplace holding a job are competing with men for those jobs.
 
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Ghosty:
Women generally did equal amounts of farmwork when the man was home…
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Ghosty, this cannot be true. Before the advent of modern appliances and electricity, laundry and cooking were very time consuming chores and history records that women did them. They could not have done nearly as much farm work while cooking, cleaning, and laundering for large families.
 
sparkle,

that quote is from Paul, not Jesus - and as Catholics we do not take all of Paul’s words literally - otherwise women would be wearing veils all the time, never speaking in church, and slaves would have to obey their masters. Paul wasn’t perfect and his words shouldn’t be given the same weight as Christ’s. Nor are they - there is nothing in the Catechism about women submitting to their husbands and nothing about women having to stay home when they have children.

I’m certainly not pushing for Sola Scriptura, but rather placing utmost priority on Jesus’ words. All of this emphasis on gender roles is not rooted in anything from Jesus. I wish people would realize this and stop pretending their opinion about women staying home is “God’s will for women” and essential to being a good Christian. God already came and told us what is essential to following Him, and He didn’t lay out seperate paths for men and women.
 
DARCY

Vocation is not whatever your job is. You have A vocation. 1. Religious life 2 Married life 3 Single. Everyone on this thread should indeed read the letter to Bishops that Cardinal Ratzinger just came out with this week, “On the Colaboration of Men and Women in the Church and in the World”, also the Pope and his Theology of the Body. Both can be found on EWTN.COM. The new one by the Cardinal is on the front home page (right side and the other in their document library. I wish my wife would stay home with the kids and so do they but she is not capable (patience). I love her dearly and sacrifice all for her. She is non-Catholic. Our kids are very Catholic and I fill the role of hugger and affectionate. Couples should court , not date as it were and live apart until marriage and not co-habitate, and attend natural family planning instead of thinking they will contracept, read Humanae Vitae, and seek the counsel of good, orthodox Catholic teachings. When all this is said and done you won’t find many mom’s thinking about careers. Why are we so willing to sacrifice love for our children for the love of money. Why can’t we settle for less and be happy, as Jesus promised?

Peace and Love in our God
 
I think we ought to wonder why women left home in the first place…

I mentioned the isolation of young mothers. Some women can deal with it, some cannot. If I had not been part of a church (Protestant at the time) where I could find friends I think I would have gone stark raving mad at times. When my husband was stationed at Fort Devon in Mass I was home alone all day with an 18 month old boy in a conveted third floor apartment. I was in a strange city and all the women around me worked. As I said, were it not for my church I don’t know how I would have gotten by mentally and emotionally.

Motherhood despite all the hoopla on Mother’s Day isn’t really respected in day to day life. I liked the old Testament ideal of how becoming a mother was a wonderful and honorable thing. If women are to stay home then they should not be dismissed as ‘just a wife and mother’. When she is at a party and the discussion is about some world event…everyone else should stop and listen to her opinions with the same respect as they would give anyone else and not a patronizing respect either. REAL respect.

Women have brains. They are intelligent. Being educated made me a better mother I believe. I could answer my children’s questions about the world and what I didn’t know my husband could fill in (I knew more about literature and history, husband was the math person…we were both ok in science) I knew about world events, husband knew what was going on locally. We kept up with pop culture. (we didn’t alway approve of it but we made sure we knew what was going on)

And just because a woman has small children she has a responsibility to herself to not let her brain turn to mush. She should read…read the newspaper, watch the news and keep current. When you are with other women its ok to talk babies and make-up and recipes but that shouldn’t be ALL you talk about.

I could go on and on about this…what was the topic? 😉

dream wanderer
 
On the most basic level, yes. Both husband and wife have the obligation to provide for the family, in whatever way possible.

On a more advanced level, I encourage everyone to read a book titled “The Two Income Trap” by Elizabeth Warren which illustrates the awful financial bind many families find themselves in when a couple relies on both husband and wife working to maintain a lifestyle.

For myself, I was always able to support my family without my wife having to work. This left her free to take care of our three children. Now, those who have children will know that taking care of children is hard, hard work so I never felt like she wasn’t holding up her end of the work; on the contrary, I could never have accomplished with the children what she did so well.

I don’t care how much is written on the subject, in my opinion no one will rear a child as well as the parents. I am no unsympathetic to families that have to have two incomes, but I urge them to find a way out of it when they can.
 
george eastlake:
DARCY

Vocation is not whatever your job is. You have A vocation. 1. Religious life 2 Married life 3 Single.
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When did I say it was? I said “Catholics consider marriage a vocation. If a woman is called to another vocation then there is nothing that says she MUST marry and have children.”

Which leaves TWO vocations… single or religious. The presumption being if she is called to a single life then she would not find a conflict between researching cancer and raising children. If she is called to a religious life she might well be trained as a teacher or attorney again with not conflict between her job and her child rearing.

-D
 
You know, I haven’t seen anything in this discussion on the real reason women end up staying home in the first place. *Pregnancy …It’s not easy for most women and they often have to quit their jobs to get through it. *Nausea , vomiting, water gain, cramps , anxiety… and these are just the normal illness of pregnancy. This doesn’t include more serious issues. Then, of course, there is the birth and recovery. Then there is breast-feeding every 2 hours for many months and the childhood illness to get through. I don’t know about the rest of the women in this forum, but this things took a lot out of me. Life is sheer exhuastion (amid many joys!!:)) when the children are little. To me, it also seems like a Biblical plan for women to stay home, at least while children are young. Then, of course, its hard for mom to go back to work because everyone is use to her being the Home Manager.

I see a lot of unhappy women out there, who are overworked and stressed out because they’re trying to do it all. God never meant for women to bring home the bacon and raise the kids all at once. .Why does the Bible say we should provide for widows and orphans if His whole plan was for women to work.
 
You know, I haven’t seen anything in this discussion on the real reason women end up staying home in the first place. *Pregnancy …It’s not easy for most women and they often have to quit their jobs to get through it. *Nausea , vomiting, water gain, cramps , anxiety… and these are just the normal illness of pregnancy. This doesn’t include more serious issues. Then, of course, there is the birth and recovery. Then there is breast-feeding every 2 hours for many months and the childhood illness to get through. I don’t know about the rest of the women in this forum, but this things took a lot out of me. Life is sheer exhuastion (amid many joys!!:)) when the children are little. To me, it also seems like a Biblical plan for women to stay home, at least while children are young. Then, of course, its hard for mom to go back to work because everyone is use to her being the Home Manager.

I see a lot of unhappy women out there, who are overworked and stressed out because they’re trying to do it all. God never meant for women to bring home the bacon and raise the kids all at once. .Why does the Bible say we should provide for widows and orphans if His whole plan was for women to work.
 
buffalo,

if the submission mentioned in Castii Conubii was so important, why did it fail to make it into the catechism? Why is there nothing in Catholic marriage vows about obedience?

As for providing for widows in the Bible, women weren’t allowed to enter a profession, receive an education, support themselves in that society. Saying that we need to help those who are in a socially vulnerable position is not necessarily an approval of the way society works.
 
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Minerva:
buffalo,
if the submission mentioned in Castii Conubii was so important, why did it fail to make it into the catechism? Why is there nothing in Catholic marriage vows about obedience?

.
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Take some time and read the whole encyclical. I think you will find that the submission you are thinking of is not the same as he is describing. I think it harmonizes with the JPII letter

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE COLLABORATION OF MEN AND WOMEN IN THE CHURCH AND IN THE WORLD
 
St. Ambrose:
You mentioned this was your professional view - are you a psychologist? If you have a professional view then do you work outside the home?
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Blessings to You St. Ambrose:

Yes, I am a professional who used to be a “career woman” and work outside the home, for the first 7 or so years of my marriage–which is why I have learned things the hard way–believe me. If I could go back and make up all the years I lost, I would, leaving my infants elsewhere–preventing my husband from getting on with his career, etc., etc. --I sure would.! This might explain my passion for the topic. Thanks for asking Ambrose!!!

So in answer to your question, no, I do not work outside the home any longer, and haven’t for about 9 years now. And every day of it has been a blessing from above, something no big salary could ever compare to.

To God Be The Glory~~
 
If women shouldn’t “compete” with men for education and jobs how should the women who are single or widowed provide for themselves?

Should the society provide for them financially so they don’t have to get an education and a job?

Another thing, not all married couple have children. Many are involuntarily infertile. Should the wife stay home in a, at daytime, empty house?
 
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Sunniva:
If women shouldn’t “compete” with men for education and jobs how should the women who are single or widowed provide for themselves?

Should the society provide for them financially so they don’t have to get an education and a job?

Another thing, not all married couple have children. Many are involuntarily infertile. Should the wife stay home in a, at daytime, empty house?
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There seems to be some suggestion of this. That society should put a financial value on this. I am not sure who will actually be paying for it. (something that will have to be worked out in the future) The point is that conditions should not force a women to make these decisions at the expense of family and children. Your second point - I don’t read that into either of these writings. The Collaboration letter points out the valued contributions women make.
 
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Hopeful:
Women aren’t available anymore to help others through illness, hardtimes, or even to celebrate good times. They are busy working and I’m afraid men just aren’t cut out to fill the void.
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This is an excellent point.

Dream Wanderer suggests that not all women are cut out to fill this void, either. It’s true that each of us has different strengths and weaknesses. Still, no matter how we’re “cut out,” sometimes we need to reshape ourselves into something closer to the Christian ideal. For instance, we can strive to improve our homemaking skills through practice, prayer, and devotion to Our Lady and married women saints. :gopray: If we need concrete advice, we can consult books, web sites, or, if we’re so blessed, other women in our communities.

"Similarly, older women should be reverent in their behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to drink, teaching what is good, so that they may train younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, chaste, good homemakers, under the control of their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited. (Titus 2:3-5)

When I was single, I’m embarrassed to admit, I rarely looked for opportunities to care for friends and family. In general, I made phone calls and had dinner parties when I felt like it, and did my own thing the rest of the time. :o At the time, I didn’t see anything wrong with this. Now that I’m the official goodwill ambassador for my family (including such roles as “Chancellor of Greeting Cards,” “Dispenser of Encouragement,” etc.), I’m becoming aware of these self-centred habits, and trying to mend my ways.

The movie, “One True Thing,” is about this subject. I found it quite moving and inspiring. (Although I wish they’d left out the euthanasia subplot. :eek: )

God bless,
Mrs. R
 
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