Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

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Buddyroe said:
Please tell me you are not a muslim troll.
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Careful, Buddy. It is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgable Catholics, so I would hate for you to be banned.

You are not permitted to be insulting.

Please look at my posting history, status and statistics before you question whether I am a troll.
 
meltzerboy said:
What about different versions of Trinitarianism, which Catholics refer to as heresy, in which the three Persons of G-d are thought to be separate rather than distinct? Are people who believe this also worshiping a different G-d? And what about Oneness Pentecostals who are not trinitarian: which G-d do they worship? How about Mormons, JW’s, and Quakers? Are they all worshiping different deities, and, if so, which ones?

PRmerger, a Muslim troll? I assume you’re joking.
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Yes of course I’m being facetious with the muslim troll comment, there is however a certain squishyness to his accommodations. I am being harsh but on this area of the thread I started by being contrite and I thought polite, sorry to say that was rather unrequited.

Yes I’m familiar with the various doctrines (the ones you mention can plead their own case), there is quite likely a doctrine for every conceivable parsing of defining the Godhead. However neither you nor I nor PRmerger, nor muslims get to define God. God defines Himself and we don’t get to vote on His resume.
What kind of god says “OK you go make the rules for who I am and that will be the basis for how I receive you”? What value is there to such a god?
Scriptures (the Bible), Koran are standards of belief, they contradict each other, they can’t both be true.
 
PRmerger said:
Careful, Buddy. It is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgable Catholics, so I would hate for you to be banned.

You are not permitted to be insulting.

Please look at my posting history, status and statistics before you question whether I am a troll.
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Sorry old boy, I started out trying to be polite, it wasn’t a profitable exercise.

I feel my sarcasm was justified, so ban me I’m fine with that, and you can go on making nice with your ‘god of Abraham’ buddies.
 
Just to ask again. Does anyone have any experience with Islam? Studied in the Middle East? Speak Arabic?
 
Buddyroe said:
Sorry old boy, I started out trying to be polite, it wasn’t a profitable exercise.
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It sounds as if you are saying that you can’t be polite here? Is that your point?
I feel my sarcasm was justified, so ban me I’m fine with that, and you can go on making nice with your ‘god of Abraham’ buddies.
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How about if you just address the arguments being provided?

You still have not provided any scriptural basis for your doctrine declaring that worship of God must be done in the name of the Trinitarian God or it is a false god. I have given you 49 inspired texts which contradict your doctrine.

Can you at least see where your logic has failed here? And where you have declared a doctrine of man and not God?
 
PRmerger said:
Book, chapter and verse, please that says that unless one believes in the Trinity he is worshipping a different god.
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How about the Athenasian creed? I know Catholic profess it, as well as Lutherans.

“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence.”

Personally, I’m not too upset with giving Muslims the benefit of the doubt - but as a church, we’ve dealt with this before and the answer is a resounding ‘no’ as far as the Athenasian creed is concerned.

Frankly, I’d like to know how the Catholic Church reconciles the Athenasian creed with it’s generosity when dealing with modern Muslims.
 
benjohnson said:
How about the Athenasian creed? I know Catholic profess it, as well as Lutherans.

“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence.”

Personally, I’m not too upset with giving Muslims the benefit of the doubt - but as a church, we’ve dealt with this before and the answer is a resounding ‘no’ as far as the Athenasian creed is concerned.

Frankly, I’d like to know how the Catholic Church reconciles the Athenasian creed with it’s generosity when dealing with modern Muslims.
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This prompts 2 thoughts:
  1. If this is indeed Buddy’s source for declaring that the Trinity is what we must believe in, in order to worship God, then he is using the Church, and NOT Scripture, as his source for doctrine. That’s fine, but it would contradict (his definition) of SS. (Perhaps not the Lutheran def, but, again, he need not submit to the Lutheran church’s def.)
  2. That Muslims deny the Trinity is treacherous territory indeed. However, that ought not be interpreted as saying, “They must confess the Trinity else they are worshipping an entirely different god.” A parallel is to the Catholic teaching on the Real Presence. That Calvinists deny the Real Presence is treacherous territory indeed. However, that ought not be interpreted as saying, “Calvinists must profess the Real Presence else they are worshipping an entirely different messiah.”
 
They are reading a different book, following a false prophet not found in the Bible whom they believe was predestined by God from all time to be the last prophet who in his wisdom denied the Covenants of the God of Abraham. Placed himself and his version of god, well here…

catholic.com/documents/endless-jihad-the-truth-about-islam-and-violence

Everyone does not agree on this, its the theological proverbial rabbit hole of one God.

Its not a doctrinal issue, its another book and false teaching.
 
Anziano said:
Just to ask again. Does anyone have any experience with Islam? Studied in the Middle East? Speak Arabic?
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When I was at college the majority of my group of friends were Muslims. We did everything together. We shared our food, studies and visited each other (yes Muslims welcomed me in their homes). I trusted they would always stick up for me if I ever got into trouble. I did however detect an imaginary line that couldn’t be crossed. My closest friend Muhammud tried to convert me to Islam (I’m Lebanese BTW and I speak fluent Arabic). I wasn’t interested, but he kept persisting until we left college and kinda lost contact.

I also had a good friend of mine Samira who was a Muslim at my workplace. Every day at lunch time I would leave our lunch group ten minutes early to go to an isolated place to pray a decade of the rosary. She noticed and asked if it would be ok if she joined me to pray to Allah. She was too shy to go on her own and put on a hijab while praying. Of course I welcomed her as warmly as I could. From that day on, every day we would go together, then distance ourselves around 5 metres apart and pray quietly on our own, then head back to the office. I really was quite a beautiful and rare experience!
 
I can imagine what being in the middle east or speaking Aramaic has to do with a NT in Greek and Christians living with Muslims in the USA or elsewhere. The translations can be found.
 
PRmerger said:
Where does the Bible say that, Buddy?

Book, chapter and verse, please that says that unless one believes in the Trinity he is worshipping a different god.
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If that were the criteria then we could also say that the Jews are worshipping a different God, which we know is not true.
 
God began His plan to establish the nation of Israel with the call of Abraham and the making of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic covenant is the foundation for all subsequent covenants that God made with Israel. God’s goal in making the covenants was for Israel to become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Exodus 19.5-6). While the nation has failed to achieve this goal it will be achieved in a future day since God is sovereign and keeps His promises. Everything that God promised the nation through the covenants will be fulfilled when the Lord returns to set up His kingdom on earth and rule as “David’s greater Son” (Luke 1.31-33, 20.41-44).

doctrine.org/covenants-of-israel/
 
PRmerger said:
This prompts 2 thoughts:
  1. If this is indeed Buddy’s source for declaring that the Trinity is what we must believe in, in order to worship God, then he is using the Church, and NOT Scripture, as his source for doctrine. That’s fine, but it would contradict (his definition) of SS. (Perhaps not the Lutheran def, but, again, he need not submit to the Lutheran church’s def.)
  2. That Muslims deny the Trinity is treacherous territory indeed. However, that ought not be interpreted as saying, “They must confess the Trinity else they are worshipping an entirely different god.” A parallel is to the Catholic teaching on the Real Presence. That Calvinists deny the Real Presence is treacherous territory indeed. However, that ought not be interpreted as saying, “Calvinists must profess the Real Presence else they are worshipping an entirely different messiah.”
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You sir defend the Triune God or deny your claim as faithful membership of this website.

It Gauls me beyond description to defend the Catholic faith (not being RC) against one who claims adherence.
 
As to other questions of the Mormons and JWs etc. There understanding can be read. There’s no secrets here. Here’s a CAF track for example on Mormons.

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-does-the-catholic-church-say-about-the-practices-and-beliefs-of-mormonism

“Mormonism teaches that human beings may, by practicing the tenets of its faith, become gods and goddesses themselves, with their own planets full of people worshiping them.”

Still don’t know what that has to do with the Quran and Mohammed?
 
GaryTaylor said:
God began His plan to establish the nation of Israel with the call of Abraham and the making of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic covenant is the foundation for all subsequent covenants that God made with Israel. God’s goal in making the covenants was for Israel to become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Exodus 19.5-6). While the nation has failed to achieve this goal it will be achieved in a future day since God is sovereign and keeps His promises. Everything that God promised the nation through the covenants will be fulfilled when the Lord returns to set up His kingdom on earth and rule as “David’s greater Son” (Luke 1.31-33, 20.41-44).

doctrine.org/covenants-of-israel/
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Thank you Gary Taylor for simply stating the promise of our Lord
 
Buddyroe said:
You sir defend the Triune God or deny your claim as faithful membership of this website.

It Gauls me beyond description to defend the Catholic faith (not being RC) against one who claims adherence.
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uh… PRmerger is defending the official Roman Catholic view.

We may not like that viewpoint, but we can’t say she’s not in assent with what her church has promulgated.
 
Buddyroe said:
You sir defend the Triune God or deny your claim as faithful membership of this website.

It Gauls me beyond description to defend the Catholic faith (not being RC) against one who claims adherence.
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I will defend the Trinity to my death, Buddy, with God’s grace.

Just as I will defend the Eucharist to my death.

I would never say that you worship a different Christ because you deny the Real Presence. I just understand that you have erred in some ways, but to the degree that you worship the Christ who suffered, died and rose for you and me, is the degree to which I give you a 👍

Similarly, I would never say that Muslims worship a different God because they deny the Trinity. I just understand that they have erred in some ways, but to the degree that they worship One God, who is All Powerful, All Merciful, All Just, Transcendent and Omnipresent, I give them a 👍

Now, if you want to profess that you worship a different Christ than the Christ that Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians and (some) Methodists worship because you believe something different than we do, then I will give you a 👍 for being consistent.

But I don’t think you’re willing to do that.

As such, you have a different standard for yourself than you do for others.

That doesn’t work very well logically.
 
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