Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

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If faith and reason is not the standard, then there literally is no standard, and people who abandon it have simply given themselves a Carte blanche to believe whatever they choose. Cloaking this irrational behavior with terms like “faith” does not make it any less irrational.

“Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos, is contrary to the nature of God”, said Manuel II, quoted from Regensburg

“Islam needs to clarify its understanding of violence and reason.”

Unfortunately I’ll have to ask an honest rhetorical question for the debate, as I see my error here appears in essence to be a double standard.

While its true we have a relative proposal here. I’m afraid I reached the opposite point…

“Truth can be narrowed down to a point of intolerance.”

Thoughts?
 
Depends on your definition of “truth”
I think you missed what I am saying, if I reduce the truth to for example John on scripture as I did above, then too “Truth can be narrowed down to a point of intolerance.”
 
How about it, worshipping the same God?
Gary,

The catechism says that they do worship the same God.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

That they do not understand the nature of God, the revelation of Jesus Christ and that salvation comes from Christ and his Church are all significant issues. That is why the Church teaches that they “may” achieve salvation.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

PnP
 
I know we been through it and its related encyclicals and various earlier teachings up to today. Its all in the thread.
 
True I hadn’t read from the beginning of the thread…apologize
No thing.

Its not hard to see how secular became opposed or radical, if we all profess to worship one God, and this is arrived at through faith and reason, then the secular is just as likely to reach the point of intolerance by the confusion of faith and reason on the part of the one God motley crew also, in which case we have another situation with faith and reason with the secular view of the one God faiths.

Thus we have everyone pointing the finger at each other claiming some form of truth which leads to no peaceful solution.

The problem with these faiths from what I see, is all witness by martyrdom, which is a true sign of their faiths, in particular Islam and Christianity. They claim there is no turning back from the absolute truth.
 
NOTE: PR is right 99% of the time, she is 1/2 right here which indicates the “rare” 1% 😃
😛
John 8:41-
The Children of the Devil
As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.
You are doing the works of your own father." “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.…
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
How about it, worshipping the same God? :nope:…
That you are applying this to Islam is your own interpretation. The Church does not. Which means Christ does not.
 
If faith and reason is not the standard, then there literally is no standard, and people who abandon it have simply given themselves a Carte blanche to believe whatever they choose.
No one is saying Faith and Reason are not the standard.
 
Muhammed (sav) did not get from OT or NT because He (sav) couldn’t read or write. He (sav) did not have an education from Jewishs or Christians. There were Christians and Jewishs around there and if Muhammed had got stolen from them they would catch and reject him.When He (sav) got first revelation from God his wife asked a monk. Monk said that is Gabriel who previously came to Musa(Moses) (as), İsa(Jesus) (as) and other prophets. İf what came to Muhammed were not true revelation fom God He would not be able to persuade others. People observed Him in every place and situations even at home but they did no see any wrong or conflict. Thouse people were so hard at their manners and thoughts but they saw a fact and truth so they accepted. There are millions proofs that proves Muhmmed (sav).

So please do not say Muhammed (sav) was a false prophet. That is not useful and honest.

And we(Christians, Jews and Muslims) believe same God. At least Muslim believe and know Father of Trinity is Allah but have not more knowledge further(about Son and Holy Spirit.) God send prophets for salvations of humans as much I know there is no annotated verses in OT, NT, Quran and in all revelations. is there?
 
Hello,

I was raised a Catholic but after reading a translation of the Quran I converted to Islam. Muslims worship the same Almighty God that Christians know as God the Father. I recognized that immediately when I first read the Quran. I have lived in Jordan, met several Arabian Christians and read an Arabic bible - The Name of God in the Arabic Bible is “Allah.”

In defense of my beloved faith, I would like to reply the false charges against Muslims and Islam made by another poster.

And those who disbelieve say, “This [Qur’an] is not except a falsehood he invented, and another people assisted him in it.” But they have committed an injustice and a lie. * And they say, “Legends of the former peoples which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon.” * Say, [O Muhammad], “It has been revealed by He who knows [every] secret within the heavens and the earth. Indeed, He is ever Forgiving and Merciful.” [The Quran 25:4-6]

So remind [O Muhammad], for you are not, by the favor of your Lord, a soothsayer or a madman. * Or do they say [of you], “A poet for whom we await a misfortune of time?” * Say, “Wait, for indeed I am, with you, among the waiters.” [The Quran 52:29-31]

She said, “How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?” He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, ‘It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.’ " [The Quran 19: 20-21]

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?’” He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. [The Quran 5:116]

And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant. [The Quran 33:7]

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut (false dieties) and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. [The Quran 2:256]

Know that the life of this world is but amusement and diversion and adornment and boasting to one another and competition in increase of wealth and children - like the example of a rain whose [resulting] plant growth pleases the tillers; then it dries and you see it turned yellow; then it becomes [scattered] debris. And in the Hereafter is severe punishment and forgiveness from Allah and approval. And what is the worldly life except the enjoyment of delusion. * Race toward forgiveness from your Lord and a Garden whose width is like the width of the heavens and earth, prepared for those who believed in Allah and His messengers. That is the bounty of Allah which He gives to whom He wills, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty. [The Qur’an 57:20-21]

Say, “Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them. And do not approach immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason.” (151)

Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are self-deluding and boastful. [The Quran 4:36]

.
Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [The Quran 2:255]
He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity, Knower of the unseen and the witnessed. He is the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful. * He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him. * He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor, the Fashioner; to Him belong the best names. Whatever is in the heavens and earth is exalting Him. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. [The Quran 59:22-24]

And there are many more Quranic verses that disprove your statements

May Almighty God guide us all to the straight path
It is not helpful to use the Quran to support your views on a Catholic forum, Katie. We reject the Quran and do not believe it proclaims the inspired Word of God.

Similarly, I would not use the Bible to support Christian views if I were on an atheist forum; nor would I use Sacred Tradition to support Catholic views if I were on a fundamentalist Christian forum.

It is not helpful.
 
So why do you not say the same thing about Muslims? Why not say that they have not professed the fullness of the message of God, and that there is something inherently disordered about their prayer life, but that they are not worshipping a different God?

Do you not see a inconsistency here?
That’s why I added the last line, anticipating this follow-up - Christ is not numerically identical with a piece of bread. Communion is not God in the same sense that love is not God - however, you cannot say the same about Jesus. If you do not believe in one of the persons of the Trinity, than you deny the entirety of God because each person of the Trinity is fully God (recall that each person is not a mathematical proportion, i.e. 1/3 and is not a composite part of God, but each person is the one Lord hence the mystery of the Trinity).

There is no person of the Trinity bread.
 
It is not helpful to use the Quran to support your views on a Catholic forum, Katie. We reject the Quran and do not believe it proclaims the inspired Word of God.

Similarly, I would not use the Bible to support Christian views if I were on an atheist forum; nor would I use Sacred Tradition to support Catholic views if I were on a fundamentalist Christian forum.

It is not helpful.
PR, I think Katie was using the Quran to rectify some conclusions that were made by Gary about Muhammad and His Book.

I’m not sure the Bible talks much about Muhammad so where else could she cite from to correct the misunderstandings? 🙂

.
 


The catechism says that they do worship the same God.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330



PnP
Good luck with that.

As you see, people have been quoting the Catechism, Vatican II, and statements by Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict, and Francis on this thread for days.

Once someone has decided to reject the teaching of the Church, it’s rather difficult to convince him that the Church is right and he’s wrong.
 
Pope John XXIII - opening of the Council:

"Our duty is not only to guard this precious treasure, as if we were concerned only with antiquity, but to dedicate ourselves with an earnest will and without fear to that work which our era demands of us, pursuing thus the path which the Church has followed for twenty centuries.

The salient point of this Council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all.

For this a Council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a Magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character."

“And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary,”
 
That you are applying this to Islam is your own interpretation. The Church does not. Which means Christ does not.
Course we are in perfect harmony here, beautiful thing really. But, you agree of course these examples of those who “profess” to follow the one God of Abraham and do not, historically they indeed have existed. 😛
 
Pope John XXIII - opening of the Council:

"Our duty is not only to guard this precious treasure, as if we were concerned only with antiquity, but to dedicate ourselves with an earnest will and without fear to that work which our era demands of us, pursuing thus the path which the Church has followed for twenty centuries.

The salient point of this Council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all.

For this a Council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a Magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character."

“And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary,”
Gary,

Denying the teaching authority of an Ecumenical Council (which you are clearly attempting here) does not change the answer to the OPs question.

18… But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind…
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Whether you like that teaching or not; whether you agree with that teaching or not, it does not change the fact that this is the Church’s position–one that has been re-affirmed by the Church over and over again for nearly 50 years now.

Please take a moment to read the concluding paragraph of Lumen Gentium
Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.

It also provides a very clear and straightforward answer to the OPs question.

Yes, Moslems and Catholics worship the same God—but we have very different beliefs about that One God.
 
When Jesus and you say “no one can get to heaven except by going through the Son,” do you mean by going through the Son of one’s own accord or by going through the Son even if one is not aware of doing so?
Jesus took absolutely everyone’s (sins, wrongdoings or whatever one wishes to call it) upon Himself.

So the answer to your question is YES and should be self-explanatory by what Jesus did for ALL even if many (believers and non-believers) don’t believe this to be and many (believers and non-believers) don’t even want this to be.

There will be those that take detours, so to speak, but ALL will make it HOME.

To use a baseball analogy, God has all of the bases covered and as I have already said, “ALL will make it HOME.”.
 
Where does the Bible say that, Buddy?

Book, chapter and verse, please that says that unless one believes in the Trinity he is worshipping a different god.
“Who do you say that I am?”

Simple question, is it not?

Either God became One of us or God didn’t, simple statement, is it not?

Christianity is very simply about God becoming One of us.

If God did not become One of us than Christianity simply does not exist, it is that simple.
 
God began His plan to establish the nation of Israel with the call of Abraham and the making of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic covenant is the foundation for all subsequent covenants that God made with Israel. God’s goal in making the covenants was for Israel to become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Exodus 19.5-6). While the nation has failed to achieve this goal it will be achieved in a future day since God is sovereign and keeps His promises. Everything that God promised the nation through the covenants will be fulfilled when the Lord returns to set up His kingdom on earth and rule as “David’s greater Son” (Luke 1.31-33, 20.41-44).

doctrine.org/covenants-of-israel/
Actually, I believe that God had His Plan since before creation but as far as God not only choosing the Chosen People but also forming them with Abraham being the first Jew, I believe that they were chosen by God for God to have a “vehicle”, so to speak, to become One of us.

God’s Plan is creation and it is unfolding before our very eyes.
 
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