Do Muslims think Jesus was crucified or not?

[LtTony]

Don’t you wish you had a miracle to prove you right?

That’s kind of a sad, pitiful rhetorical question. Some people imagine something to feed a somewhat bizarre desire for everyone else to see them as “right.” It also helps explain a group’s fundamental need to attack other’s beliefs to reinforce their own.

He did quite a few miracles, actually. And yes, his Companions saw the angel. You can’t see those miracles, and you can’t see the angel. But there’s a miracle you can still witness.

The Koran is not a miracle, Amy.

And when you say mohammad performed quite a few miracles, you mean like splitting the moon? What are some other miracles?

But more to the point, why do you think that Mohammad went into such detail on some things, including such mundane topics like bathroom habits, but essentially ignored a death that had so much affect on humanity?

 

[LtTony]

Rhetorical devices are definately part of it, although the devices are mainly the deceptive ones.

Perhaps they seem so to someone who doesn’t understand them.

One poster grasped the meaning I was getting at in my question… .

Perhaps they understand them, but judge them flawed.

Who was the poster that grasped your meaning?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Do you mean repentance?

Yes, Its difficult to understand from a Catholic perspective. I’m assuming there must be similarities.

 

[Sister_Amy]

That’s kind of a sad, pitiful rhetorical question. Some people imagine something to feed a somewhat bizarre desire for everyone else to see them as “right.” It also helps explain a group’s fundamental need to attack other’s beliefs to reinforce their own.

The Koran is not a miracle, Amy.

And when you say mohammad performed quite a few miracles, you mean like splitting the moon? What are some other miracles?

But more to the point, why do you think that Mohammad went into such detail on some things, including such mundane topics like bathroom habits, but essentially ignored a death that had so much affect on humanity?

I make a point of not mentioning them because the Qur’an is the greater miracle, and I’d rather encourage people to experience a miracle that they themselves are capable of witnessing, rather than one that they just have to take someone’s word for. There are several physical miracles mentioned in saheeh ahadith.

And your last question just demonstrates a lack of perspective. And the answer, if I chose to answer it, would likely earn someone’s ire and slap me with some sort of penal measure for not showing enough respect to Christianity.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Perhaps they understand them, but judge them flawed.

Who was the poster that grasped your meaning?

exoflare

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes, Its difficult to understand from a Catholic perspective. I’m assuming there must be similarities.

Repentence requires a few things
-acknowledging you’ve done something wrong
-stopping that thing you’ve done that’s wrong
-correcting the wrong, in some cases, and asking another person for forgiveness
-asking for forgiveness and pardon from God (might include additional acts of worship if one chooses, like 2-ركعة صلاة النافلة for توبة (two voluntary units of prayer for seeking forgiveness)
-not returning to that thing

 

[LtTony]

That’s kind of a sad, pitiful rhetorical question. Some people imagine something to feed a somewhat bizarre desire for everyone else to see them as “right.” It also helps explain a group’s fundamental need to attack other’s beliefs to reinforce their own.

The Koran is not a miracle, Amy.

And when you say mohammad performed quite a few miracles, you mean like splitting the moon? What are some other miracles?

But more to the point, why do you think that Mohammad went into such detail on some things, including such mundane topics like bathroom habits, but essentially ignored a death that had so much affect on humanity?

I make a point of not mentioning them because the Qur’an is the greater miracle, and I’d rather encourage people to experience a miracle that they themselves are capable of witnessing, rather than one that they just have to take someone’s word for. There are several physical miracles mentioned in saheeh ahadith.

And your last question just demonstrates a lack of perspective. And the answer, if I chose to answer it, would likely earn someone’s ire and slap me with some sort of penal measure for not showing enough respect to Christianity.

In other words, you’re reluctant to discuss Mohammad’s alleged miracles in the light of day.
And again, there’s nothing miraculous about the Koran.
So it appears no miracles can be attributed to Mohammad.

But back to the thread topic… which I think you are avoiding. You write: “And your last question just demonstrates a lack of perspective. And the answer, if I chose to answer it, would likely earn someone’s ire and slap me with some sort of penal measure for not showing enough respect to Christianity.”

Specifically, how is perspective lacking?
Also, you claim that an answer might be viewed as disrespectful. Based on some of your behaviors, I doubt you are concerned about respect, but 1) it IS possible to frame answers that are not disrespectful (Are you saying it is impossible?) and 2) would it help if I rephrased the question?

“Why do you think that Mohammad went into such detail on some things, including such mundane topics like bathroom habits, but essentially ignored a reported death that so many people would believe, and would become the basis for christianity?”

 

[schaick]

He did quite a few miracles, actually. And yes, his Companions saw the angel. You can’t see those miracles, and you can’t see the angel. But there’s a miracle you can still witness.

Very interesting- we are seeing the rewriting of history right before our eyes. This is an new addition to the story of Islam.

I have asked Muslims for the past 10 years if there were eyewitnesses to the “angel” that spoke to Mohammad. Tthe answer- NO.

What the people around Mohammad saw was the reaction of Mohammad- what I have described as symptoms of Temperal Lobe Seizures. Mohammad perspiring on a cool day, moving mouth, pressure on upper abdomen and chest, etc.

The people also did not hear the ringing of bells that Mohammad heard. The eyewitnesses did hear a humming sound.

Truth is no one else ever saw the “angel” Mohammad was speaking to.

 

[exoflare]

Truth is no one else ever saw the “angel” Mohammad was speaking to.

She’s talking about the Quran, not the angel.

 

[Sister_Amy]

In other words, you’re reluctant to discuss Mohammad’s alleged miracles in the light of day.
And again, there’s nothing miraculous about the Koran.
So it appears no miracles can be attributed to Mohammad.

You can say that if you want, but you know it’s a lie.

But back to the thread topic… which I think you are avoiding. You write: “And your last question just demonstrates a lack of perspective. And the answer, if I chose to answer it, would likely earn someone’s ire and slap me with some sort of penal measure for not showing enough respect to Christianity.”

Specifically, how is perspective lacking?
Also, you claim that an answer might be viewed as disrespectful. Based on some of your behaviors, I doubt you are concerned about respect, but 1) it IS possible to frame answers that are not disrespectful (Are you saying it is impossible?) and 2) would it help if I rephrased the question?

“Why do you think that Mohammad went into such detail on some things, including such mundane topics like bathroom habits, but essentially ignored a reported death that so many people would believe, and would become the basis for christianity?”

You implied that Muhammad talked all the time about the bathroom and never about Jesus which is a pretty grandiose distortion. It seems that you like to read about the bathroom (or others like to write about it) though it hardly is critical to anyone’s faith.

At the same time, a person goes to the bathroom every day. So, having good hygiene habits means having good hygiene every day. The subject comes up for people every day.

Though you insist upon the “basis for Christianity,” the average person doesn’t find it to affect their life on any significant basis at all. It doesn’t require anything from them, in terms of action. The only people who might disagree, naturally, are Christians, who no doubt would argue that it affects every facet of their lives. So the Qur’an has lots to say to Christians. But the Qur’an doesn’t, for instance, ignore Jesus, and I found that for me it gave more than enough information on the subject.

If you read the whole thing and disagree, that’s your prerogative. But I don’t find myself needing any more details. Nor do the billion+ other Muslims in the world.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Very interesting- we are seeing the rewriting of history right before our eyes. This is an new addition to the story of Islam.

I have asked Muslims for the past 10 years if there were eyewitnesses to the “angel” that spoke to Mohammad. Tthe answer- NO.

What the people around Mohammad saw was the reaction of Mohammad- what I have described as symptoms of Temperal Lobe Seizures. Mohammad perspiring on a cool day, moving mouth, pressure on upper abdomen and chest, etc.

The people also did not hear the ringing of bells that Mohammad heard. The eyewitnesses did hear a humming sound.

Truth is no one else ever saw the “angel” Mohammad was speaking to.

Yeah, you’ve mentioned your “tempOral lobe seizures” theory before. However, there were witnesses to the angel. Not sure who told you otherwise, but there’s a list of witnesses who saw the angel walk into town on one occasion, sit with Muhammad and ask him some questions (a teaching moment for the benefit of the Companions.) I’ve even listed the witnesses elsewhere on the forum. But mostly people just ignore it.

They huff and they puff and ignore all the facts. Reality has little to do with their defense anyway.

 

[LtTony]

In other words, you’re reluctant to discuss Mohammad’s alleged miracles in the light of day.
And again, there’s nothing miraculous about the Koran.
So it appears no miracles can be attributed to Mohammad.

But back to the thread topic… which I think you are avoiding. You write: “And your last question just demonstrates a lack of perspective. And the answer, if I chose to answer it, would likely earn someone’s ire and slap me with some sort of penal measure for not showing enough respect to Christianity.”

Specifically, how is perspective lacking?
Also, you claim that an answer might be viewed as disrespectful. Based on some of your behaviors, I doubt you are concerned about respect, but 1) it IS possible to frame answers that are not disrespectful (Are you saying it is impossible?) and 2) would it help if I rephrased the question?

“Why do you think that Mohammad went into such detail on some things, including such mundane topics like bathroom habits, but essentially ignored a reported death that so many people would believe, and would become the basis for christianity?”

You can say that if you want, but you know it’s a lie.

You implied that Muhammad talked all the time about the bathroom and never about Jesus which is a pretty grandiose distortion. It seems that you like to read about the bathroom (or others like to write about it) though it hardly is critical to anyone’s faith.

At the same time, a person goes to the bathroom every day. So, having good hygiene habits means having good hygiene every day. The subject comes up for people every day.

Though you insist upon the “basis for Christianity,” the average person doesn’t find it to affect their life on any significant basis at all. It doesn’t require anything from them, in terms of action. The only people who might disagree, naturally, are Christians, who no doubt would argue that it affects every facet of their lives. So the Qur’an has lots to say to Christians. But the Qur’an doesn’t, for instance, ignore Jesus, and I found that for me it gave more than enough information on the subject.

If you read the whole thing and disagree, that’s your prerogative. But I don’t find myself needing any more details. Nor do the billion+ other Muslims in the world.

“You can say that if you want, but you know it’s a lie.”
I will say it but it is not a lie. You’re reluctant to have Mohammad’s alleged miracles examined here.

Regardless, the topic at hand is the Islamic perspective of the Crucifixion. I asked about it, who dodged it by saying an answer would offensive and punishable. I re-phrased it, you dodged again. (I also asked if you think it IMPOSSIBLE to answer without being offensive. Your answer?)
For the third time…(rephrasing) … Why do you think that Mohammad covered topics, like bathroom habits, but essentially ignored a reported death that so many people would believe, and would become the basis for christianity?

You implied that Muhammad talked all the time about the bathroom and never about Jesus which is a pretty grandiose distortion.

I never meant to imply “all the time.” But there are details on the subject in Islamic scripture.

it hardly is critical to anyone’s faith.

Yes, I agree. Hence the observation. And while not critical, it apparently has a small part in the faith of some. No?

At the same time, a person goes to the bathroom every day. So, having good hygiene habits means having good hygiene every day. The subject comes up for people every day.

So I guess you’re saying again that a common body function has some relevance in a religion’s practices.

Though you insist upon the “basis for Christianity,” the average person doesn’t find it to affect their life on any significant basis at all.

What the…? We’re not talking about “the average person.” We’re talking about Islam and Christianity. Whether you want to admit it or not, it’s a huge issue.

The Koran and hadith say relatively little about Christ and even less about His death – “they killed him not” is basically it. Mohammad claims christians (and their scripture) got it wrong, but provides less detail/evidence than toilet hygeine.

I found that for me it gave more than enough information on the subject… I don’t find myself needing any more details.

What exactly comprises “more than enough information” and “details” in the Koran on the Crucifixion?

 

[LtTony]

I’ve even listed the witnesses elsewhere on the forum. But mostly people just ignore it.

They huff and they puff and ignore all the facts. Reality has little to do with their defense anyway.

Could you please link to that location and to the source of the list? Thanks.

 

[Sister_Amy]

“You can say that if you want, but you know it’s a lie.”
I will say it but it is not a lie. You’re reluctant to have Mohammad’s alleged miracles examined here.

Regardless, the topic at hand is the Islamic perspective of the Crucifixion. I asked about it, who dodged it by saying an answer would offensive and punishable. I re-phrased it, you dodged again. (I also asked if you think it IMPOSSIBLE to answer without being offensive. Your answer?)
For the third time…(rephrasing) … Why do you think that Mohammad covered topics, like bathroom habits, but essentially ignored a reported death that so many people would believe, and would become the basis for christianity?

I never meant to imply “all the time.” But there are details on the subject in Islamic scripture.

Yes, I agree. Hence the observation. And while not critical, it apparently has a small part in the faith of some. No?

So I guess you’re saying again that a common body function has some relevance in a religion’s practices.

What the…? We’re not talking about “the average person.” We’re talking about Islam and Christianity. Whether you want to admit it or not, it’s a huge issue.

The Koran and hadith say relatively little about Christ and even less about His death – “they killed him not” is basically it. Mohammad claims christians (and their scripture) got it wrong, but provides less detail/evidence than toilet hygeine.h

What exactly comprises “more than enough information” and “details” in the Koran on the Crucifixion?

Yes, I am “dodging” and “reluctant” to talk about miracles of Muhammad.

But I also answered your question when you rephrased it. I said:

Though you insist upon [the crucifixion being] the “basis for Christianity,” the average person doesn’t find it to affect their life on any significant basis at all. It doesn’t require anything from them, in terms of action. The only people who might disagree, naturally, are Christians, who no doubt would argue that it affects every facet of their lives. So the Qur’an has lots to say to Christians. But the Qur’an doesn’t, for instance, ignore Jesus, and I found that for me it gave more than enough information on the subject.

And you responded (above post). But I guess it’s not clear that I was answering, and I won’t fault you for that.

The Qur’an talks a lot more about Christians and Christianity than it does about bodily functions, that’s for sure. So I meant to say that your comment was lacking perspective.

And I stand by my previous post–bodily functions are a part of daily life. While Christianity might not promote good hygiene, Islam does. Islam is a complete way of life with guidance from God, so why shouldn’t it include good hygiene? It’s part of good health, and shouldn’t your way of life promote good health?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Could you please link to that location and to the source of the list? Thanks.

I would if I could but I can’t seem to find a record of either.

Basically, the primary evidence of people seeing the Angel Gabriel is an account calledthe Hadith Jibreel, an authentic (saheeh) report. At the time I found a list of 7 witnesses (who recounted the occasion, which is why they’re listed as witnesses.) That’s how I found them, by looking at narrators of the hadith

Among them were 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab, Abu Hurayrah and Abu ad-Dhar, I think, but I can’t remember.

 

[exoflare]

It’s kind of hard to explain, but I will do my best. The quirks in some of their communication usually arise when matters of truth are being discussed. It’s sort of like playing dumb. Only they play dumb with each other, and they don’t seem to consider it to be playing dumb. Why play dumb? Because that is what they learn to do from the Quaran. This can happen with any person who’s religion contradicts itself. It’s sort of like relativism; it’s like agreeing with the law of non-contradiction, but making acceptions to this rule. Also there is an element of belittling each other and establishing a heirarchy, sort of like a totem pole. The more truth you cling to, the lower you are on the totem pole. The meanings of words seem to change to something only those in the discussion are aware of. Also, the use of hedges predominates. By hedge I mean something like this: Process of protecting oneself against the unfavorable without repenting; or using deceptive statements to intentionally create a “miasma of vagueness that obscures the facts.”

To some, the term farsi is not used to describe a language, but this very method of communicating that I have outlined.

I hope this helps. And if anyone reads this and understands what it means, I hope you choose to never communicate this way.

I had forgotten to respond to this when you first posted it, but anyway…

Thanks for clarifying. Everything you’ve written here actually makes a LOT of sense in light of the way I’ve seen other Muslims communicate about matters of religion. However I wasn’t aware that these quirks of speech actually had any sort of label already pegged for them. Nor did I ever suspect it would be a specifically “Farsi” inclination; it seems almost universal amongst Muslims whatever their national origin or ethnicity in my experience.

 

[exoflare]

While Christianity might not promote good hygiene, Islam does.

I only wish ALL Muslims proselytized like this.

 

[LtTony]

Could you please link to that location and to the source of the list? Thanks.

I would if I could but I can’t seem to find a record of either.

Thanks. So for now at least, all we know for sure is that only Mohammad saw the angel.

 

[LtTony]

Originally Posted by LtTony forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
“You can say that if you want, but you know it’s a lie.”
I will say it but it is not a lie. You’re reluctant to have Mohammad’s alleged miracles examined here.

Regardless, the topic at hand is the Islamic perspective of the Crucifixion. I asked about it, who dodged it by saying an answer would offensive and punishable. I re-phrased it, you dodged again. (I also asked if you think it IMPOSSIBLE to answer without being offensive. Your answer?)
For the third time…(rephrasing) … Why do you think that Mohammad covered topics, like bathroom habits, but essentially ignored a reported death that so many people would believe, and would become the basis for christianity?

I never meant to imply “all the time.” But there are details on the subject in Islamic scripture.

Yes, I agree. Hence the observation. And while not critical, it apparently has a small part in the faith of some. No?

So I guess you’re saying again that a common body function has some relevance in a religion’s practices.

What the…? We’re not talking about “the average person.” We’re talking about Islam and Christianity. Whether you want to admit it or not, it’s a huge issue.

The Koran and hadith say relatively little about Christ and even less about His death – “they killed him not” is basically it. Mohammad claims christians (and their scripture) got it wrong, but provides less detail/evidence than toilet hygeine.h

What exactly comprises “more than enough information” and “details” in the Koran on the Crucifixion?

Yes, I am “dodging” and “reluctant” to talk about miracles of Muhammad.

OK, thanks. We agree on the obvious.
And apparently I wasn’t lying when I said you were, as you accused me.

Though you insist upon [the crucifixion being] the “basis for Christianity,” the average person doesn’t find it to affect their life on any significant basis at all. It doesn’t require anything from them, in terms of action. The only people who might disagree, naturally, are Christians, who no doubt would argue that it affects every facet of their lives. So the Qur’an has lots to say to Christians. But the Qur’an doesn’t, for instance, ignore Jesus, and I found that for me it gave more than enough information on the subject.

The atoning death and resurrection of Christ isn’t something I insist on; it is the basis of christianity. It does require action. And the rest of your comment is about christians, when I’m asking about Mohammad.
But we can get past that.

Trying to paraphrase you: Mohammad didn’t find any particular significance in the reports of Christ’s death, a death that commands so much of christian scripture and doctrine, a death that Christ predicted, that He said was for us.

But this, according to you and most other muslims, Mohammad saw as insignificant.

HUUUUUGE oversight, imo. You admitted “Christians, who no doubt would argue that it affects every facet of their lives.” That’s over 2 billion people. Further, you claim “So the Qur’an has lots to say to Christians.”
Lots? Like what? And what could be more important to christians – as you said yourself – than the death of Our Saviour?

None of your explanation makes sense, imo. I think Mohammad may have been wise to just ignore something he couldn’t explain away.

But the Qur’an doesn’t, for instance, ignore Jesus, and I found that for me it gave more than enough information on the subject.

I didn’t say the Koran ignores Jesus. I said it says relatively very little of him.
And I asked before: what exactly in the Koran comprises “more than enough information of the subject” of Jesus’ death.
I ask, because near as I can tell, saying “they killed him not” is about the limit of the Koran’s “details” on the Crucifixion. Is there more than this 4-word phrase?

While Christianity might not promote good hygiene, Islam does. Islam is a complete way of life with guidance from God, so why shouldn’t it include good hygiene? It’s part of good health, and shouldn’t your way of life promote good health?

Are muslims more healthy than Christians?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Trying to paraphrase you: Mohammad didn’t find any particular significance in the reports of Christ’s death, a death that commands so much of christian scripture and doctrine, a death that Christ predicted, that He said was for us.

But this, according to you and most other muslims, Mohammad saw as insignificant.

HUUUUUGE oversight, imo. You admitted “Christians, who no doubt would argue that it affects every facet of their lives.” That’s over 2 billion people. Further, you claim “So the Qur’an has lots to say to Christians.”
Lots? Like what? And what could be more important to christians – as you said yourself – than the death of Our Saviour?

None of your explanation makes sense, imo. I think Mohammad may have been wise to just ignore something he couldn’t explain away.

Try reading the first five chapters. These account for almost 25% of the Qur’an and talk at length about Christianity.

What is more important is having a relationship with God. Direct, no intermediaries. Understanding who God is, understanding how to obey and worship Him.

I didn’t say the Koran ignores Jesus. I said it says relatively very little of him.
And I asked before: what exactly in the Koran comprises “more than enough information of the subject” of Jesus’ death.
I ask, because near as I can tell, saying “they killed him not” is about the limit of the Koran’s “details” on the Crucifixion. Is there more than this 4-word phrase?

Let me break it down:
و قولهم And their saying/speech:
إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله: certainly, we killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary the Messenger of Allah
و ما قتلوه : they didn’t kill him
و ما صلبوه : and they didn’t crucify him
و لكن شبه لهم: however it seemed that way to them
و إن الذين اختلفوا في لفي شك منه: and certainly those who differ about it are in doubt about it
ما لهم به من علم الا اتباع الظن: they have no knowledge (at all) except following assumption
و ما قتلوه يقينا: but no, they didn’t kill him, for sure

The Qur’an mentions Jesus literally dozens of times. Mostly it talks about Allah, however. After all this time, have you even read it?

Anyway, this ayah is one of many which directs people towards truth. It does a few thing–it mentions a false claim that’s being made. It honors Jesus with the best titles, and then it disputes two different claims. Not one, check it, but two. First, it says Jesus wasn’t killed. (What happened to him? Oh, the next ayah says Allah raised Jesus up to Himself.) And then it says that they didn’t crucify him. However, the ayah also acknowledges that it seemed like a crucifixion happened.

I think that if you actually read the whole Qur’an you’ll see that the entire faith is laid out. And that in fact, what really happened at the crucifixion is less important in reality than Christianity has made it seem.

Are muslims more healthy than Christians?

Dunno.