Do only Muslims reject the historical crucifixion?

[jakasaki]

~ bump again for Muslims to answer ~

There are many interpretations of what actually happened at the crucifixion by Muslims but they are all speculations since the Quran is silent on it. Some said it was Judas, some said at the supposed moment of death of Jesus, he was picked up by Allah, and so on. Of course all of these do not make sense because of the fact that it left an impression behind that Jesus was crucified and Christian belief was established because of this.

Quran 4:157 emphasis is on Jesus being rescued by Allah (raised him up unto Himself) and those who differ from this are in doubt, meaning they have been deceived.

There is no evidence that ‘they’ boasted in killing Jesus too as said by the verse.

If a revered prophet should not ‘suffer such an excruciating fate’, then why did not Allah rescue Jesus from being arrested or even at the agony in Gethsemane where Jesus already suffered excruciating pain (mentally and physically)?

The suffering and humiliation of Jesus can be divided into four parts:

1. The agony at Gethsemane.
Jesus was in great distress, ‘My soul is sorrowful to the point of death’; ‘If possible, let this cup pass me by’.

2. Jesus was scourged
Pilate ordered Jesus to be first scourged and then handed over to be crucified.

3. Jesus carried the cross
Carrying the wooden cross, Jesus already wounded and in pain from the torture, fell several times, that he could not carry it any longer.

4. Jesus was crucified
*When they reached the place called the Skull (Golgotha), they crucified him there and the two criminals also, one on the right, the other on the left.
‘Father into your hands I commit my spirit’. With these words he breathed his last.
Joseph of Arimethaia went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. He took it down, wrapped it in a shroud and put him in a tomb. *

It is strange that Allah should rescue Jesus only at the point of death on the cross (crucifixion) but not at the earlier stages where the suffering was even greater. Death is perhaps the least of all pain compared to the physical and mental pain that Jesus endured.

So the general interpretation by Muslims as mentioned is moot but more merely to justify Quran 4:157.

 

[famdigy]

There are many interpretations of what actually happened at the crucifixion by Muslims but they are all speculations since the Quran is silent on it. Some said it was Judas, some said at the supposed moment of death of Jesus, he was picked up by Allah, and so on. Of course all of these do not make sense because of the fact that it left an impression behind that Jesus was crucified and Christian belief was established because of this.

Quran 4:157 emphasis is on Jesus being rescued by Allah (raised him up unto Himself) and those who differ from this are in doubt, meaning they have been deceived.

There is no evidence that ‘they’ boasted in killing Jesus too as said by the verse.

If a revered prophet should not ‘suffer such an excruciating fate’, then why did not Allah rescue Jesus from being arrested or even at the agony in Gethsemane where Jesus already suffered excruciating pain (mentally and physically)?

I think most Muslims are in agreement that Jesus (as) was raised right before someone that looked like him was captured. There are lots of hadiths confirming this. here is one for example

It is related in the tafsír attributed to Imam Hasan ‘Askarí that regarding the verse, ‘and We strengthened him with the holy spirit (2:87)’ he said, “He is Gabriel, and this was when Allah raised him through a hole in his house to heaven, and He cast his likeness on the one who had desired to kill him, so he was killed instead of him (Jesus).”

The person who was captured, scourged, made to carry the cross, and ultimately get crucified was not Jesus (as). Rather it was someone whom Allah made to look like Jesus.

 

[Reuben_J]

I think most Muslims are in agreement that Jesus (as) was raised right before someone that looked like him was captured. There are lots of hadiths confirming this. here is one for example

It is related in the tafsír attributed to Imam Hasan ‘Askarí that regarding the verse, ‘and We strengthened him with the holy spirit (2:87)’ he said, “He is Gabriel, and this was when Allah raised him through a hole in his house to heaven, and He cast his likeness on the one who had desired to kill him, so he was killed instead of him (Jesus).”

The person who was captured, scourged, made to carry the cross, and ultimately get crucified was not Jesus (as). Rather it was someone whom Allah made to look like Jesus.

Perhaps The Sufi should emulate this. See how simple it is – give an answer; do not evade or beating around the bush.

Thanks famdigy. We don’t agree with this but you are brave enough with your belief to show the hadith in a Catholic forum. For the sake of your honesty here, I will not ridicule or be sarcastic with your answer. You and others including The Sufi are entitled to your belief.

Perhaps others would like to comment more. My one observation is that this person (the substitute) was able to say …

In Gethsemane:
*‘My soul is sorrowful to the point of death’; Mt 26:38

‘My Father, if possible, let this cup pass me by …’ Mt 26:39*

He was able to reprimand his disciples.

• “So you had not the strength to keep awake with me one hour? … You should be awake, and praying not to be put to the test. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak” . Mt 26;41

“Get up! Let us go! My betrayer is already close at hand”. Mt 26:46
*

Before the High Priest:
“I will tell you that from this time onward you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven”. Mt 26:64

On the way to Calvary
“Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep rather for yourselves and for your children.” Lk 22:28

During the Crucifixion:
*“Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” Lk 22:34

“Indeed, I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise”.Lk 22:43

“My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” Mt 27:47*

The Quran did not say the substitute speaks like him, only in his likeness. So I am wondering about the words spoken. Quite unlikely to come from an ordinary criminal especially during the Jews of Jesus’ time where Jesus was disbelieved as blasphemous. The only person who could say this is Jesus himself.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Sufi:

I want a verse where Jesus says “I’m God.”

He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. (Rev 21:6)

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (Rev 22:13)

Granted as Muslim you may not understand the Christians term for God. If you do research a bit, these are no less than what God means. Not only he says he is God but mentions about God’s attribute too.

If you are still in doubt about this, maybe others can show you where Jesus said he is the ‘I Am’, a reference to God by the Jews. Remember, he was addressing the Jews in a term they knew. Of course they knew because they proceeded to stone him for blasphemy, a punishment then by death.

 

[MartinJordan]

I think most Muslims are in agreement that Jesus (as) was raised right before someone that looked like him was captured. There are lots of hadiths confirming this. here is one for example

It is related in the tafsír attributed to Imam Hasan ‘Askarí that regarding the verse, ‘and We strengthened him with the holy spirit (2:87)’ he said, “He is Gabriel, and this was when Allah raised him through a hole in his house to heaven, and He cast his likeness on the one who had desired to kill him, so he was killed instead of him (Jesus).”

The person who was captured, scourged, made to carry the cross, and ultimately get crucified was not Jesus (as). Rather it was someone whom Allah made to look like Jesus.

The trouble Fam here is that the Hadiths came after the Quran to explain this. It is a shame without accurate testimony. All after the fact and easily added by anyone who gets a hold of the Bible and create supposition like this. Plus why no name of this “someone” made to look like Jesus?

MJ

 

[Reuben_J]

It should be noted that the Jews, and Jesus is one, do not utter the word ‘God’ because it is so holy. They nevertheless referred to God as what God said he is.

 

[famdigy]

The trouble Fam here is that the Hadiths came after the Quran to explain this. It is a shame without accurate testimony. All after the fact and easily added by anyone who gets a hold of the Bible and create supposition like this. Plus why no name of this “someone” made to look like Jesus?
MJ

It’s not something I’ve looked into. There’s a chance I might be able to dig up the name of this person if I did some research into it.

I know what you mean about the hadiths coming after the Quran but keep in mind that the Quran doesn’t go into details on a lot of topics. For example, the Quran commands us to pray but doesn’t get into any detail on how to perform the prayers. The expectation is that these details would be obtained from Muhammad (pbuh) and the Imams after him (as). That’s why God in the Quran commands us to obey Him, His Messenger, and those of authority after him (i.e. the imams)

 

[MartinJordan]

It’s not something I’ve looked into. There’s a chance I might be able to dig up the name of this person if I did some research into it.

I know what you mean about the hadiths coming after the Quran but keep in mind that the Quran doesn’t go into details on a lot of topics. For example, the Quran commands us to pray but doesn’t get into any detail on how to perform the prayers. The expectation is that these details would be obtained from Muhammad (pbuh) and the Imams after him (as). That’s why God in the Quran commands us to obey Him, His Messenger, and those of authority after him (i.e. the imams)

I thank you for your kind response Fam.

In Christianity we have written testimony about the crucifixion, and the things Jesus said before and after it and just before he ascended into Heaven. There is no more new Revelation how God revealed Himself to us through his Son.

And once again let me reiterate the Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church and that also means defending the Faith that has been passed down to this present day.

As long as we continue to grow in Holiness we do not fear Jesus’ return because we wait in** joyful hope **for our Lord and Savior to take to us to his Heavenly Kingdom.

I think the biggest difference is that we experience God continuing to speak to us through the Holy Spirit because He is The Living God and not only by believing what is written in a Book.

After all it was put together by the Church (people of those early days who walked with Jesus and after his Ascension continued his work to spread the Good News, suffered and died for the Faith) putting things down in words. This experience by the early Church Fathers is attested.

MJ

 

[LtTony]

It should be noted that the Jews, and Jesus is one, do not utter the word ‘God’ because it is so holy. They nevertheless referred to God as what God said he is.

Wow. Terrific observation. I don’t know why no one – in the never-ending discussion on this subject – has never mentioned this before (head slap). It should be near the top of the list. Thank you Reuben.

 

[Holly3278]

I have considered becoming a Muslim in the past but this is the main reason why I reject Islam. There is clear historical evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and right there in the Qur’an it states that He was not crucified when we have clear evidence that He was!

 

[TheSufi]

Wow. Terrific observation. I don’t know why no one – in the never-ending discussion on this subject – has never mentioned this before (head slap). It should be near the top of the list. Thank you Reuben.

Because it is a weak argument, this is why no one has used it. I’ll address it later. Kind of busy right now.

 

[TheSufi]

It should be noted that the Jews, and Jesus is one, do not utter the word ‘God’ because it is so holy. They nevertheless referred to God as what God said he is.

The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” John 10:33

Here the Jews are using the word “God”, and Jesus could have simply responded, “I am God”, but he doesn’t.

It is my understanding that word they did not utter was Yahweh, which is translated by some as Lord. However the Jews used several other words in place of Yahweh, such as El (translated as God), El Elyon (translated as The Most High), El Shadi (I don’t remember what this is translated as) etc etc.

Another problem with having the Greek, and not the original Hebrew or Aramaic that the Jews and Jesus communicated with each other, we don’t know what Hebrew or Aramaic word they used for God. So we can only speculate.

Did the Jews say, "being a Man, make Yourself God (El)?”
Did the Jews say, "being a Man, make Yourself God (Elohim)?”

It could be argued that the Jews used the word Elohim. Since Jesus responded with Pslams 82:6. ** “You are Gods (Elohim), children of the Most High (El Elyon).”**

Or they could have used the word El (God), since Number 23:19 says,** El (God) is not a man that He should lie, nor the son of the man that He should repent.**

Since Jews used the word, “but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man,” which would give reason for the Jews to become upset, as this is a direct violation of numbers.

It is important because El is only used for the Most High, while, Elohim is used for God the Most High, Prophets, Men, Angels etc.

The truth of the matter is we don’t know. We can only speculate.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” John 10:33

Here the Jews are using the word “God”, and Jesus could have simply responded, “I am God”, but he doesn’t.

You are looking for a specific sentence that Jesus must say, “I am God” in the Bible to prove he must be God. This is hypothetical and even if it is mentioned in such a manner, Muslims can always say the Bible is corrupted and that sentence is not original.

Considering the nature of Jesus ministry and what he claimed to be, telling people that he is God is just plain crazy and unwise, the same reason why he told his disciple not to tell, for example, the transfiguration and some of his miracles. Jesus very often spoke about ‘his time’ which has not yet come.

But Jesus was a teacher, a rabbi. If he claimed to be a God, it must be the one as understood in the Jewish religion and in their scripture. This he explained and the priests and rabbis knew what Jesus meant. They knew he meant the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob which is the true God and not any other gods.

He could say he is God and it was blasphemous that result in punishment of death. But for that, Jesus wanted it to be understood that he was not just any god but the specific God that their ancestor worshipped whose name is too holy to be uttered.

Jesus was not to be baited into blasphemy with provocateurs who were more interested to kill him. Jesus saw that they were more interested to catch him with an evidence to convict him. And Jesus was always witty for that. Remember when he outwitted the Pharisees by answering what belongs to Caesar to Caesar.

The High Priest and the Sanhedrin, however, the learned people of the scripture, knew perfectly well what Jesus meant and it was for this reason he was arrested and killed.

Jesus does not have to say “I am God” for him to be the true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; for that true God had never said, “I am God”, in the manner you want it to be phrased.

 

[Reuben_J]

In the tradition of Moses, God did not answer Moses what he asked.

But Moses replied, “ … they will asked me, what is his name?’ So what can I tell them?”
God said, “I am who I am. You must tell them: ‘The one who is called I AM has sent me to you.’ Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them. This is my name forever; this is what all future generations are to call me. …” Ex 3:13-15

This is what Jesus referenced to in Jn 8:58.
*“I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I AM’.” Then they picked up stones to throw at him.
*
It is this statement that made the Jews to pursue Jesus and goaded him to say if he is God later (in Jn 10).

 

[Reuben_J]

Wow. Terrific observation. I don’t know why no one – in the never-ending discussion on this subject – has never mentioned this before (head slap). It should be near the top of the list. Thank you Reuben.

You are welcome, Lieutenant. Perhaps it is the misunderstanding of the term God which is general/secular and the Judaism God which the Jews would not utter as it is too holy.

Jesus understandably refused to fall into a trap of saying he is God which could be used against him in the court. This is consistent with the witty nature of Jesus’ answers. What is more important of course the teachers of the law understood him to mean that he mentioned he is the God that they worshipped.

The question is: which is more appropriate for him to say (1) he is God and have him arrested or (2) for him to cloak his answer in the understanding and the truth of their scripture which the secular (Roman) law could not understand/did not recognize? This is what Jesus did throughout his ministry.

As for the truth, it is more precise for Jesus to say he is the I AM that exist before the foundation of the world and before Abraham rather than merely saying, “I am God” which does not mean anything except to satisfy the law to convict him.

 

[Reuben_J]

Eventually the charge against him that stuck is that Jesus is king. This is a clear statement of rebellion against the Roman authority which is punishable by death. Little did they know that his kingdom is not of this world but the everlasting heavenly Kingdom which only and only belong to God. And that what Jesus is.

 

[LtTony]

The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” John 10:33

Here the Jews are using the word “God”, and Jesus could have simply responded, “I am God”, but he doesn’t.

Why would He have answered that way? The Jews were not asking a question (Are you God?), they were making a statement: “You have made yourself out to be God.” So Jesus had already made the statement(s) with declarations and behavior.

Your objection doesn’t make sense.

 

[LtTony]

You are looking for a specific sentence that Jesus must say, “I am God” in the Bible to prove he must be God. This is hypothetical and even if it is mentioned in such a manner, Muslims can always say the Bible is corrupted and that sentence is not original.

Exactly. I asked/told a Muslim this once over at whyislam, and the reply I got was, “Of course I wouldn’t accept Jesus saying he was God. No prophet would ever do such a thing.”

He could say he is God and it was blasphemous that result in punishment of death. But for that, Jesus wanted it to be understood that he was not just any god but the specific God that their ancestor worshipped whose name is too holy to be uttered.

Jesus was not to be baited into blasphemy with provocateurs who were more interested to kill him. Jesus saw that they were more interested to catch him with an evidence to convict him. And Jesus was always witty for that. Remember when he outwitted the Pharisees by answering what belongs to Caesar to Caesar.

Jesus does not have to say “I am God” for him to be the true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; for that true God had never said, “I am God”, in the manner you want it to be phrased.

Jesus understandably refused to fall into a trap of saying he is God which could be used against him in the court. This is consistent with the witty nature of Jesus’ answers. What is more important of course the teachers of the law understood him to mean that he mentioned he is the God that they worshipped.

As for the truth, it is more precise for Jesus to say he is the I AM that exist before the foundation of the world and before Abraham rather than merely saying, “I am God” which does not mean anything except to satisfy the law to convict him.

Good summation.

 

[TheSufi]

You are looking for a specific sentence that Jesus must say, “I am God” in the Bible to prove he must be God. This is hypothetical and even if it is mentioned in such a manner, Muslims can always say the Bible is corrupted and that sentence is not original.

The inability to provide a decisive verse which shows that Jesus is God, ie Jesus saying, “I am God,” proves that those early Christians such as the Ebionites, had every right to reject the belief that Jesus was God.

 

[dmbuso]

I have considered becoming a Muslim in the past but this is the main reason why I reject Islam. There is clear historical evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and right there in the Qur’an it states that He was not crucified when we have clear evidence that He was!

I have read that Muslims believe 3 things about the crucifixion of our Lord.

1. The majority believe what the Quran states is that Jesus was about to be crucified, but they crucified another that looked like him.
2. A small minority believe that Jesus was in fact crucified, hung on the cross, but did not die, and others took him down and he lived.
3. And another small minority believe that the crucifixion event never took place.

This is what I have read. I’m not 100% sure it is accurate, but this is what I’ve read.

If you read John Chapter 1, the Bible states that Jesus is the Son of God and has been with him forever and came to earth to reveal God the Father.
usccb.org/bible/john/1