Do only Muslims reject the historical crucifixion?

[TheSufi]

In the tradition of Moses, God did not answer Moses what he asked.

But Moses replied, “ … they will asked me, what is his name?’ So what can I tell them?”
God said, “I am who I am. You must tell them: ‘The one who is called I AM has sent me to you.’ Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them. This is my name forever; this is what all future generations are to call me. …” Ex 3:13-15

This is what Jesus referenced to in Jn 8:58.
“I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I AM’.” Then they picked up stones to throw at him.

It is this statement that made the Jews to pursue Jesus and goaded him to say if he is God later (in Jn 10).

There were two early sects of Christians, one sect believing that Jesus was God and another believing that Jesus was not God.

Perhaps those who believed that Jesus was God, such as the Gnostic and Catholic/Orthodox would interpret that statement of Jesus as him saying, “I am that I am.”

Perhaps those early Christians who did not believe Jesus was God such as the Ebionites, interpreted that verse as, “before Abraham Was born, I existed (I am).” Understanding from that, that Jesus existed before as spirit, and then acquired a body at that time.

 

[Reuben_J]

The inability to provide a decisive verse which shows that Jesus is God, ie Jesus saying, “I am God,” proves that those early Christians such as the Ebionites, had every right to reject the belief that Jesus was God.

Christianity is very much an apostolic religion. Its belief and doctrine are handed down to the apostles. There is no Gospel that is written by Jesus which the Muslims thought there was. The revelation by Jesus was Jesus himself, in the sense he is the God News and what/who Jesus entails.

As for the Ebionites, there is not much known about them. The Early Church Fathers did mention about them as ‘heretical Judaism’. There is no evidence that their founders were originated from the twelve apostles. On the other hand, the Church that we have today can trace its origin directly to the apostles.

 

[Reuben_J]

There were two early sects of Christians, one sect believing that Jesus was God and another believing that Jesus was not God.

Perhaps those who believed that Jesus was God, such as the Gnostic and Catholic/Orthodox would interpret that statement of Jesus as him saying, “I am that I am.”

Perhaps those early Christians who did not believe Jesus was God such as the Ebionites, interpreted that verse as, “before Abraham Was born, I existed (I am).” Understanding from that, that Jesus existed before as spirit, and then acquired a body at that time.

I would not know of this as I have not heard of this before. Did the Ebonites use the same Gospels? It seems they did not. The little information we have is that they only used one Gospel purportedly written by James the Just.

There is no mistaken of God being referred to as the ‘I Am’ by the Jews because this is explicit in Jewish scripture, the Tanach. They would know what it meant as I had explained in the post.

The only reason why Jesus did not say ’ I am God’ was for tactical reason. Had he said that in public he would not last a day; he would have been arrested and perscuted immediately. And it would serve no purpose for him to end his ministry prematurely because he had to reveal his message stage by stage as prophecized in the scripture. Besides, no one would believe him if he was to say that; he was likely to be seen as a mad man. The three years of his ministry saw many things - his actions, his teachings and the way of his life. This every aspect is the core of the Good News and the foundation of Christianity.

The early Christians who did not believe the divinity of Jesus were the ‘Arians’ which was much later at around AD 250–336.

 

[Reuben_J]

There is suggestion that Mohammad’s insufficient knowledge of Christianity was being influenced by the Ebionites and which in turn influenced the Quran.

 

[josesiem]

Further: Allah’s knowledge of Christianity is very poor. You’d think he’d know better than to equate Mary with part of the Trinity. He also doesn’t seem to know that most Christians believed in that Jesus rose from the dead to save men from their sins. The only Christian doctrine which is mentioned in the Quran is that Jesus is God’s son… and this is the worst blasphemy.

 

[TheSufi]

There is suggestion that Mohammad’s insufficient knowledge of Christianity was being influenced by the Ebionites and which in turn influenced the Quran.

I think the your insuffient knowledge of the history of early Christianity, its development, as your insufficient knowledge of Jewish theology, language, cultural allows you to blindly accept everything the church dishes out to you.

I honestly take everything into consideration, while I think your view is completely one sided.

 

[TheSufi]

Further: Allah’s knowledge of Christianity is very poor. You’d think he’d know better than to equate Mary with part of the Trinity. He also doesn’t seem to know that most Christians believed in that Jesus rose from the dead to save men from their sins. The only Christian doctrine which is mentioned in the Quran is that Jesus is God’s son… and this is the worst blasphemy.

Are you saying God has poor knowledge of Christianity, surely you jest.

 

[LtTony]

Are you saying God has poor knowledge of Christianity, surely you jest.

No joss is saying Islam’s God’s knowledge is poor.

 

[TheSufi]

No joss is saying Islam’s God’s knowledge is poor.

There is only one God.

 

[LtTony]

Regarding the claim by thesufi that not all early Christians believed Jesus was also God…

Really? Because not that I know of. Care to give examples?

Or is it like not all Muslims believe the same thing like the Ahamdis or the Bahais?

Question not answered.

Reuben’s question still not answered. People on the internet often throw stuff against the wall to see if it sticks. This may be one of those cases.

To honest I’ve read it some where. And I could simply quote it, but choose not to because I haven’t thoroughly researched it. I only read it in one book. And never bothered to research this issue indepth because it is an unimportant issue to me. And I don’t have the time to. Research it right now. As I have other projects that I’m working in currently.

There is suggestion that Mohammad’s insufficient knowledge of Christianity was being influenced by the Ebionites and which in turn influenced the Quran.

The inability to provide a decisive verse which shows that Jesus is God, ie Jesus saying, “I am God,” proves that those early Christians such as the Ebionites, had every right to reject the belief that Jesus was God.

There were two early sects of Christians, one sect believing that Jesus was God and another believing that Jesus was not God.

Perhaps those who believed that Jesus was God, such as the Gnostic and Catholic/Orthodox would interpret that statement of Jesus as him saying, “I am that I am.”

Perhaps those early Christians who did not believe Jesus was God such as the Ebionites, interpreted that verse as, “before Abraham Was born, I existed (I am).” Understanding from that, that Jesus existed before as spirit, and then acquired a body at that time.

Christianity is very much an apostolic religion. Its belief and doctrine are handed down to the apostles. There is no Gospel that is written by Jesus which the Muslims thought there was. The revelation by Jesus was Jesus himself, in the sense he is the God News and what/who Jesus entails.

As for the Ebionites, there is not much known about them. The Early Church Fathers did mention about them as ‘heretical Judaism’. There is no evidence that their founders were originated from the twelve apostles. On the other hand, the Church that we have today can trace its origin directly to the apostles.

There is suggestion that Mohammad’s insufficient knowledge of Christianity was being influenced by the Ebionites and which in turn influenced the Quran.

“There is no evidence that their founders were originated from the twelve apostles.”

" Mohammad’s insufficient knowledge of Christianity was being influenced by the Ebionites and which in turn influenced the Quran."

Bam. And bam.

 

[LtTony]

There is only one God.

Of course there is. I was making that distinction only for the purposes of discussion.

Honestly sufi, you are sometimes so obtuse with your literalism.

 

[TheSufi]

Regarding the claim by thesufi that not all early Christians believed Jesus was also God…

Originally Posted by TheSufi
To honest I’ve read it some where. And I could simply quote it, but choose not to because I haven’t thoroughly researched it. I only read it in one book. And never bothered to research this issue indepth because it is an unimportant issue to me. And I don’t have the time to. Research it right now. As I have other projects that I’m working in currently.

This was related to the issue of those Christians who denied cruxifiction.

“There is no evidence that their founders were originated from the twelve apostles.”

" Mohammad’s insufficient knowledge of Christianity was being influenced by the Ebionites and which in turn influenced the Quran."

Bam. And bam.

There is no evidence that indicates otherwise either, which is why I personally believe that the early Christian sects (pauline, ebionites, and gnostics as well as the various others) originated from the disciples of Jesus, and there were more then 12 disciples of Jesus.

I think the early Church fathers took everything that was transmitted from the early Christians into consideration, and merged the beliefs together, Jesus is 100% man and 100% God, as these differing beliefs came from the disciples.

For me there is no clear evidence that either came from the disciples, but I have to assume, these early Christian sects had to learn it from some of disciples. I don’t think they just made it up out of thin air. Whether it is Jesus is God or whether Jesus is not God. Yes I believe that some of the disciples taught Jesus was God, but I also believe some of the disciples taught Jesus was not God. And this is why you have these various early Christian groups. Which disciples taught what? I don’t know. There is no evidence.

So while I don’t believe Jesus is God, I do not fault Christian who believe Jesus is God.

 

[TheSufi]

Further: Allah’s knowledge of Christianity is very poor. You’d think he’d know better than to equate Mary with part of the Trinity. He also doesn’t seem to know that most Christians believed in that Jesus rose from the dead to save men from their sins. The only Christian doctrine which is mentioned in the Quran is that Jesus is God’s son… and this is the worst blasphemy.

There were various Christian sects, some of which have died out. The Quran was addressing those Christian who believed such, perhaps a Christian sect that exist in Arabia held such belief.

 

[LtTony]

This was related to the issue of those Christians who denied cruxifiction…

There is no evidence that indicates otherwise either, which is why I personally believe that the early Christian sects (pauline, ebionites, and gnostics as well as the various others) originated from the disciples of Jesus, and there were more then 12 disciples of Jesus. …

I understand that. My point is you have provided very, very little evidence to back up the Islamic position.

For me there is no clear evidence that either came from the disciples, but I have to assume, these early Christian sects had to learn it from some of disciples.

Yes, you ASSUME.

I don’t think they just made it up out of thin air.

Again, an assumption based only a bare thread of evidence.

“there were more then 12 disciples of Jesus.”

Yes, there were thousans of followers back in those days. Over a billion today. But just because they are disciples doesn’t mean they know orthodox Christianity. You pick and chose what to hold up as an example much more than I do.

While there were many disciples, there WERE ONLY 12 APOSTLES. These were disciples you receieved the Holy Spirit from Jesus Himself per the Bible and were given authority. Peter, said Jesus, was to receive the “keys to the kingdom of heaven.” Any evidence these other teeny tiny sects had that kind of blessing from Jesus? Answer: no.

Whether it is Jesus is God or whether Jesus is not God. Yes I believe that some of the disciples taught Jesus was God, but I also believe some of the disciples taught Jesus was not God. And this is why you have these various early Christian groups. Which disciples taught what? I don’t know. There is no evidence.

The apostolic church. It has always been taught. Sacred tradition. We went through this before. We are now DEFINITELY going in circles.

So while I don’t believe Jesus is God, I do not fault Christian who believe Jesus is God

In other words, you’re saying an argument can be made to support the orthodox belief, that Jesus could, in fact, be God. An argument – albeit a weaker one, IMO, can be made for the Islamic belief – can be made the other way. That is all I am asking. To be met half way.

There were various Christian sects, some of which have died out. The Quran was addressing those Christian who believed such, perhaps a Christian sect that exist in Arabia held such belief.

There were sects but they were not “Christian.” Sorry. There were “sects” that denied Jesus (and the Christian and Muslim beliefs) altogether. In fact, they may have a stronger argument. So let’s go with their POV, shall we?

These extra-biblical communities are what Mohammad heard about 600 years later and copied for the Koran, most Christians believe.

 

[TheSufi]

The Ebionites have their origin with Apostle James.

 

[LtTony]

No mention of James:

answering-islam.org/Index/E/ebionites.html

They REVERED James:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites

 

[Reuben_J]

The Ebionites have their origin with Apostle James.

Please give more information. I am sure Muslims have good resources on this since it seems to have a major influence on Islamic theology.

OK. So the Ebionites inspired Quran that inspired Mohammad tells us that Christian’s god is made of three part, the Father, Jesus and Mary. That Christians worshipped Mary. That Jesus was not crucified but only made to be so. Oh good, Allah here seems to have sufficient knowledge on Christianity.

And looking at that argument, well, it makes sense. Why don’t we think of it before. Of course the Ebionites did not believe that Jesus is God. Of course then the Quran has to come up with the knowledge that Jesus was not crucified. Of course, the Ebionites, being in disagreement with the Christians in the the diivinity of Jesus thought that Christians believe in a god that was made up of three parts, Father, Jesus and Mary. And since Mary is God and therefore she was to be worshipped. And of course, Mohammad was right since he believe in the Ebionites more than the successors of the twelve apostles.

Thanks TheSufi, the picture is clearer now though I must admit you have made it quite elusive.

This information sure helps me in my insufficient knowledge.

 

[Robin_des_Bois]

Is it therefore acceptable that some other innocent man suffer such an excruciating fate instead of your prophet? Is that just? Would a just God allow such pain to be inflicted upon an innocent man, just to save a prophet from such physical pain?

Some say it was Judah Iscariot who was the substitute for Jesus and that was a Divine punishment for him.

 

[josesiem]

There were various Christian sects, some of which have died out. The Quran was addressing those Christian who believed such, perhaps a Christian sect that exist in Arabia held such belief.

Sufi, no offense, but discussing with you is a complete waste of time, and I wonder why the other posters make so much effort. This thread has been going in circles of the past 20 or 30 posts.

The end of the day, you have no nothing except an error-riddled document written by a jinn-possessed war criminal that you claim trumps every other historical document ever written. Enjoy your religion. I’m done here.

 

[Reuben_J]

After listening to TheSufi’s explanation, it is clear that Quran 4:157 that says Jesus was not crucified is derived from the Ebionites which Mohammad believed were Christians. Mohammad clearly believed that the Ebionites had it right and they were whom he mentioned as the people of the Book, not the Christians of Rome, Antioch or Alexandria.

It is clear that the Quran’s information on Christianity was based on Mohammad’s interaction with the Ebionites. The fact that the Quran seemed to support this is for us to speculate; whether it was the Ebionites or Allah who revelaed them.