Do only Muslims reject the historical crucifixion?

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josesiem said:
Sufi, no offense, but discussing with you is a complete waste of time, and I wonder why the other posters make so much effort. This thread has been going in circles of the past 20 or 30 posts.

The end of the day, you have no nothing except an error-riddled document written by a jinn-possessed war criminal that you claim trumps every other historical document ever written. Enjoy your religion. I’m done here.
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Jose, LtTony did try to wrap up the posts otherwise we all are on a terrific wild goose chase. TheSufi style of dialogue is quite elusive, you have to get use to it.😉 We have to admit though that eventually he disclosed something which perhaps we all have suspected these while.🤷
 
Reuben, I never said that rhe Quran was inspired by the Ebionites. You’re a liar for saying such.
 
Calm down, thesufi. Reuben never said you wrote that. Re-read what he posted. If English is not your first language, I can understand how you you might draw such a conslusion. If you’re an English speaker… then get a grip and quit calling people liars.
 
TheSufi said:
Reuben, I never said that rhe Quran was inspired by the Ebionites. You’re a liar for saying such.
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TheSufi, you have to apply the same standard that you yourself used on others as well. If you can speculate on what Christianity is, then you have to allow others to speculate on what Islam is.

Of course, neither did I say that you said the Quran was inspired by the Ebionites. But it is a fact that you used the Ebionites to somehow support your argument that there were Christians who did not believe in the crucifixion, a question you evaded until you were pinned down numerous times.

So, it was the Ebionites, the Christians that you insinuated that do not believe in the crucifixion of Jesus. Correct me if I misunderstood you here. That is why you have to be specific and clear.

We do not believe the Ebionites were Christians other than ‘heretic Judaism’. Unless you agree if we say the Ahamdis and the Bahais are Muslims. The fact that the Ebionites did have references about Jesus; they were definitely not Christians, that is if you ask me. But of course Mohammad thought they were, did he not? Since most of his teaching or the Quran rather, seemed to confirm the belief of the Ebionites. Now, is it not right for us to speculate?
 
Reuben_J said:
Since most of his teaching or the Quran rather, seemed to confirm the belief of the Ebionites. Now, is it not right for us to speculate?
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I said confirming the Ebionites belief because Mohammad came about six hundred years later saying what they (the Ebionites) had long believed. That is, if TheSufi is right about this.
 
Reuben_J said:
TheSufi, you have to apply the same standard that you yourself used on others as well. If you can speculate on what Christianity is, then you have to allow others to speculate on what Islam is.

Of course, neither did I say that you said the Quran was inspired by the Ebionites. But it is a fact that you used the Ebionites to somehow support your argument that there were Christians who did not believe in the crucifixion, a question you evaded until you were pinned down numerous times.
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I never said the Ebionites supported our view regarding crucifixion.
We do not believe the Ebionites were Christians other than ‘heretic Judaism’. Unless you agree if we say the Ahamdis and the Bahais are Muslims. The fact that the Ebionites did have references about Jesus; they were definitely not Christians, that is if you ask me. But of course Mohammad thought they were, did he not? Since most of his teaching or the Quran rather, seemed to confirm the belief of the Ebionites. Now, is it not right for us to speculate?
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While I am Sunni, I am also an independent thinker, because I am a seeker of truth. Bahais don’t consider themselves Muslims. Ahmadiyya do consider themselves Muslims. From my perspective, they are Muslims, although they have erred greatly, because Ghulum Ahmad isn’t the Messiah (Jesus) or al Mahdi, which is their claim.

And I do not think most of the teachings of the Quran conform to the Ebionites.
 
TheSufi said:
I never said the Ebionites supported our view regarding crucifixion.
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You stated they did not believe Jesus was God:

Pure Abrahamic religions such as the early Christian Ebionites, the Jews, and Muslims, reject this belief.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11035229&postcount=116

In support of this: “Not really, because I didn’t accept Islam based on the Crucifixion nor do I reject Christianity because of the crucifixion. I don’t really focus on this aspect.”

You stated yourself, “This was related to the issue of those Christians who denied cruxifiction.”
 
LtTony said:
Please rationalize this statement, given:

*No mention of James:

*http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/E/ebionites.html

*They REVERED James:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites
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The Ebionites are connected to the Nazarenes, and they are connected the Apostle James.

In the wiki link.

Many scholars distinguish the Ebionites from other Jewish Christian groups, e.g., the Nazarenes;[7] others consider them identical with the Nazarenes. (8)

(8) Jeffrey Butz, The Secret Legacy of Jesus, ISBN 978-1-59477-307-5, “In fact, the Ebionites and the Nazarenes are one and the same.” pg 124; “Following the devastation of the Jewish War, the Nazarenes took refuge in Pella, a community in exile, where they lay in anxious wait with their fellow Jews. From this point on it is preferable to call them the Ebionites. There was no clear demarcation or formal transition from Nazarene to Ebionite; there was no sudden change of theology or Christology.”, pg 137; “While the writings of later church fathers speak of Nazarenes and Ebionites as if they were different Jewish Christian groups, they are mistaken in that assessment. The Nazarenes and the Ebionites were one and the same group, but for clarity we will refer to the pre-70 group in Jerusalem as Nazarenes, and the post-70 group in Pella and elsewhere as Ebionites.”, pg 137;
 
LtTony said:
You stated they did not believe Jesus was God:

Pure Abrahamic religions such as the early Christian Ebionites, the Jews, and Muslims, reject this belief. (Meaning the belief of Jesus being God, or man being God).
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11035229&postcount=116

In support of this: “Not really, because I didn’t accept Islam based on the Crucifixion nor do I reject Christianity because of the crucifixion. I don’t really focus on this aspect.”

You stated yourself, “This was related to the issue of those Christians who denied cruxifiction.”
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Anyway…

“I never researched the issue of Crucifixion indepth.”

“I never said the Ebionites supported our view on Crucifixion.”

“The Ebionites do not believe Jesus is God.”

Is that clear enough for you???
 
“You stated they did not believe Jesus was God:”

Is THAT clear enough for you?

Chill.
 
TheSufi said:
The Ebionites are connected to the Nazarenes, and they are connected the Apostle James.

In the wiki link.

Many scholars distinguish the Ebionites from other Jewish Christian groups, e.g., the Nazarenes;[7] others consider them identical with the Nazarenes. (8)

(8) Jeffrey Butz, The Secret Legacy of Jesus, ISBN 978-1-59477-307-5, “In fact, the Ebionites and the Nazarenes are one and the same.” pg 124; “Following the devastation of the Jewish War, the Nazarenes took refuge in Pella, a community in exile, where they lay in anxious wait with their fellow Jews. From this point on it is preferable to call them the Ebionites. There was no clear demarcation or formal transition from Nazarene to Ebionite; there was no sudden change of theology or Christology.”, pg 137; “While the writings of later church fathers speak of Nazarenes and Ebionites as if they were different Jewish Christian groups, they are mistaken in that assessment. The Nazarenes and the Ebionites were one and the same group, but for clarity we will refer to the pre-70 group in Jerusalem as Nazarenes, and the post-70 group in Pella and elsewhere as Ebionites.”, pg 137;
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The link quote does not even contain the name James.

Maybe this will help:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect
 
LtTony said:
Yes, you ASSUME.

Again, an assumption based only a bare thread of evidence.

.
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Isn’t that the basis of tradition, there is no evidence, so you Orthodox/Catholics assume Jesus being God was taught by Jesus and handed down to the Apostles, and taught to the early Church Fathers so on and so forth?

No evidence, just an assumption.
 
TheSufi said:
Isn’t that the basis of tradition, there is no evidence, so you Orthodox/Catholics assume Jesus being God was taught by Jesus and handed down to the Apostles, and taught to the early Church Fathers so on and so forth?

No evidence, just an assumption.
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You narrowed the evidence to if Jesus said, “I am God”.

That has been explained to you. Jesus said he was the God that they worshipped, the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. Jesus backed this up by many statements (given which you ignored) which only God has and can do, like forgiving sin and granting paradise.

Jesus merely saying “I am God” without demonstrating he is one would mean nothing because the question is: what god is it? Is it Baal, is it Gabriel, is it allah, is it the sun god, is it the moon god? There are many kinds of gods that people worship but they may not be the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac which Jesus said he is.

I lift your Name
Your Holy Name
Yahweh God Elohim
The Great I Am
The Risen Lamb
My Comforter and King
 
TheSufi said:
I understand tradition, but from the point of view the outsider, there is assumption involved. This is part of the reason why Protestants reject Catholic/Orthodox Christianity.
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The apostolic religion has been explained to you. It is not based on assumption. The apostles were witnesses. They had names and in specific number. They were not just any disciples of Jesus. They were handpicked and chosen by Jesus who taught them by his word, thought and action. They were with him. The saw, carried out his mission and even died for him.

Sacred Tradition is not assumption either. This is what the apostles practiced and it is preserved until today and in parallel protected by Sacred Scripture and Church’s Teaching.

Be careful about saying other’s religion being based on assumption/speculation. You did not like it when we speculate about yours.
 
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