Do only Muslims reject the historical crucifixion?

[TheSufi]

Although, some of the Qur’an has been lost. Correct?

Incorrect

Ibn Umar al-khattab states in suyuti’itqan part 3 page 72: “Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that is all? Much of the Qur’an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is availible.’”

what is suyuti’itqan? It could be Imam Suyuti’s book. Although a great scholar, he is known for quoting weak narrations. And do you know what Imam Suyuti said about the quote? I personally do not have the book. Do you know the authenticity of this narration?

Even if authentic, Umar most likely said this before he commissioned Uthman to compile the Quran.

Sahih al-muslim 2286: "We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (surah) bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: ‘if there are two valleys full of riches, for the son of adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of adam but dust,’ and we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of musabbihat, and I have forgotten it.

I am not sure what this proves. A person forgot a sura.

Sunan ibn majah 1944: "it was narrated that Aishah said, "the verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was under my pillow. When the messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came and ate it."

Again not sure what this prove, but apparently one person lost a verse. And I don’t know the authenticity of this hadith. Ibn Majah did not comply a completely authentic set. His book, contains both authentic and weak narrations.

Ibn abi daud, kitab al-masahif: "Umar was once looking for the text of a specific verse of the qur’an he vaguely remembered. To his deep sorrow, he discovered that the only person who had any record of that verse had been killed in the battle of yamama and that the verse was consequently lost."

“he discovered that the only person who had any record of that verse (ie, the only person he knew) had been killed in the battle of yamama **and that the verse was consequently lost.”

In general the companions were taught to be humble, so many of them didn’t make it known they had memorized the Quran, they kept it to themselves. Umar knew of only one person that would have known that verse. But he didn’t know anybody else who had memorized that verse.

This is why Umar commissioned Uthman to compile the Quran into one book. Upon Uthman’s investigation, he found several companions had already complied the Quran into one book. So the verse was never lost. Since knowledge is not taken from books per se, Uthman method of compiling the Quran was that he had to find at least two companions who had memorized that verse. And this is all ten modes of recitation. Even after finding those books that were already complied he, still sought out every companion who had memorized the Quran.

After Uthman re-compiled the Quran into one book, all other copies were burned.

The Quran was never lost. There were over 100,000 companions of Prophet Muhammad. Umar lived in Medinah, the Prophet had sent specific companions to various regions of the world. Some went to Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Morocco, Afghanistan etc.You had all those other companions who had memorized Quran as well.**

 

[dronald]

what is suyuti’itqan? It could be Imam Suyuti’s book. Although a great scholar, he is known for quoting weak narrations. And do you know what Imam Suyuti said about the quote? I personally do not have the book. Do you know the authenticity of this narration?

Even if authentic, Umar most likely said this before he commissioned Uthman to compile the Quran.

I can’t guarantee that Muslims accept it as authentic everywhere. I know much of what is written about Islam (including the Hadith) is debated on authenticity so it’s hard to ever know what writings Muslims believe are 100% reliable imo. I’ll give you another citation:

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: “Let none of you say ‘I have acquired the whole of the Qur’an’. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur’an has disappeared? Rather let him say ‘I have acquired what has survived.’” (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur’an, p.524).

One explanation from a Muslim I’ve read is that Ibn Umar was simply saying that the meaning behind some of the passages of the Qur’an are known by no one but Allah.

I am not sure what this proves. A person forgot a sura.

Sahih al-muslim 2286: "We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (surah) bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: ‘if there are two valleys full of riches, for the son of adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of adam but dust,’ and we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of musabbihat, and I have forgotten it.

That’s my issue is that someone forgot a Sura, and that Sura is missing from the Qur’an. How can a Sura that was revealed to Muhammad not be in the Qur’an? Unless you can find me where in the Qur’an I may find the Sura?

Again not sure what this prove, but apparently one person lost a verse. And I don’t know the authenticity of this hadith. Ibn Majah did not comply a completely authentic set. His book, contains both authentic and weak narrations.

And the verse is missing from the Qur’an, so we must say that the Qur’an we have now is not complete.

Again, I’m not going to argue authenticity because Muslims claim that there is some truth in the Bible and some falsehood. Also the same with the Hadith, I never know what’s good and what’s bad.

“he discovered that the only person who had any record of that verse (ie, the only person he knew) had been killed in the battle of yamama **and that the verse was consequently lost.”

In general the companions were taught to be humble, so many of them didn’t make it known they had memorized the Quran, they kept it to themselves. Umar knew of only one person that would have known that verse. But he didn’t know anybody else who had memorized that verse.

This is why Umar commissioned Uthman to compile the Quran into one book. Upon Uthman’s investigation, he found several companions had already complied the Quran into one book. So the verse was never lost.** Since knowledge is not taken from books per se, Uthman method of compiling the Quran was that he had to find at least two companions who had memorized that verse. And this is all ten modes of recitation. Even after finding those books that were already complied he, still sought out every companion who had memorized the Quran.

After Uthman re-compiled the Quran into one book, all other copies were burned.

The Quran was never lost. There were over 100,000 companions of Prophet Muhammad. Umar lived in Medinah, the Prophet had sent specific companions to various regions of the world. Some went to Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Morocco, Afghanistan etc.You had all those other companions who had memorized Quran as well.

Good explanation, but that’s not at all what it says.

Ibn abi daud, kitab al-masahif: “Umar was once looking for the text of a specific verse of the qur’an he vaguely remembered. To his deep sorrow, he discovered that the only person who had any record of that verse had been killed in the battle of yamama and that the** verse was consequently lost.”**

But perhaps your right.

 

[TheSufi]

Sahih al-muslim 2286: "We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (surah) bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: ‘if there are two valleys full of riches, for the son of adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of adam but dust,’ and we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of musabbihat, and I have forgotten it.

That’s my issue is that someone forgot a Sura, and that Sura is missing from the Qur’an. How can a Sura that was revealed to Muhammad not be in the Qur’an? Unless you can find me where in the Qur’an I may find the Sura?

And the verse is missing from the Qur’an, so we must say that the Qur’an we have now is not complete.

Again, I’m not going to argue authenticity because Muslims claim that there is some truth in the Bible and some falsehood. Also the same with the Hadith, I never know what’s good and what’s bad.

The overwhelming evidence indicates that there are no missing suras or verses from the Quran. If these hadiths are authentic, these so-called missing suras or verses, are probably hadiths, which some companion misunderstood to be Quran.

So it is possible these companions must have mistaken betwewn the two. There are some lengthy hadiths.

We have hadiths of the Prophet, telling the companions not to mix the two, the Quran and hadith. So much so, that at one time he made it forbidden for some companions to record Hadith, as some companions would sometimes mix the two (ie Quran and Hadith).

Good explanation, but that’s not at all what it says.

Ibn abi daud, kitab al-masahif: “Umar was once looking for the text of a specific verse of the qur’an he vaguely remembered. To his deep sorrow, he discovered that the only person who had any record of that verse had been killed in the battle of yamama and that the** verse was consequently lost.”**

But perhaps your right.

How does God inspire people to do things?

1. by direct speech
2. by creating a condition for you to respond in a certain way
3. leading you to a verse in scripture or Hadith (which is really the same thing as point 2)
4. someone telling you something that gets you to do something (which is really the same thing as point 2)

It is quite obvious to me, that God created a situation in which Umar felt that parts of the Quran was missing, this compelled him to commission Uthman to compile the Quran into one book.

 

[dronald]

The overwhelming evidence indicates that there are no missing suras or verses from the Quran. If these hadiths are authentic, these so-called missing suras or verses, are probably hadiths, which some companion misunderstood to be Quran.

So it is possible these companions must have mistaken betwewn the two. There are some lengthy hadiths.

We have hadiths of the Prophet, telling the companions not to mix the two, the Quran and hadith. So much so, that at one time he made it forbidden for some companions to record Hadith, as some companions would sometimes mix the two (ie Quran and Hadith).

How does God inspire people to do things?

1. by direct speech
2. by creating a condition for you to respond in a certain way
3. leading you to a verse in scripture or Hadith (which is really the same thing as point 2)
4. someone telling you something that gets you to do something (which is really the same thing as point 2)

It is quite obvious to me, that God created a situation in which Umar felt that parts of the Quran was missing, this compelled him to commission Uthman to compile the Quran into one book.

Well this just creates more questions, lol. But thank you for your explanation. God bless.

 

[TheSufi]

Well this just creates more questions, lol. But thank you for your explanation. God bless.

Which is why I don’t answer every question. Lol.

And may God bless you as well.

 

[Reuben_J]

Sahih al-muslim 2286: "We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (surah) bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: ‘if there are two valleys full of riches, for the son of adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of adam but dust,’ and we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of musabbihat, and I have forgotten it.

That’s my issue is that someone forgot a Sura, and that Sura is missing from the Qur’an. How can a Sura that was revealed to Muhammad not be in the Qur’an? Unless you can find me where in the Qur’an I may find the Sura?

And the verse is missing from the Qur’an, so we must say that the Qur’an we have now is not complete.

Again, I’m not going to argue authenticity because Muslims claim that there is some truth in the Bible and some falsehood. Also the same with the Hadith, I never know what’s good and what’s bad.

Good explanation, but that’s not at all what it says.

Ibn abi daud, kitab al-masahif: “Umar was once looking for the text of a specific verse of the qur’an he vaguely remembered. To his deep sorrow, he discovered that the only person who had any record of that verse had been killed in the battle of yamama and that the** verse was consequently lost.”**

But perhaps your right.

If we use the standard on the Quran that the Muslims used to authenticate the Bible, the Quran it seems is merely hearsay. Even if we grant the strong oral tradition of the Arabs (as were the Jews) it is still hearsay because Mohammad did not write it and also did not live to verify it. It depends very much on the strength of the recital skill of the sahabas and because they were so many, (more than 100,000 according to their estimates) the chances of exaggeration are higher rather than lower. And considering the highhanded attitude of Caliph Uthman in compiling the Quran (other versions were unceremoniously burnt), it is difficult to imagine that those sahabas who disagreed would dare to oppose the Caliph.

Now, the authenticity of the Quran is not so much that the present Quran is the actual copy that was compiled by Uthman but rather whether that copy is really the correct foolproof revelation from Mohammad. This is unproven because Mohammad was long dead and gone to verify its authenticity. The most that can be said about the Quran is that they tried their best to compile the sayings of Mohammad but obviously much were lost or even inaccurate rendering of the true revelations themselves.

 

[Reuben_J]

And the 100,000 sahabas. What was their relationship with Mohammad? How close they were to him? Were they his disciples who shared his intimate life and thought. Were they witnesses of Mohammad’s deed intimately and regularly. Considering the size of the number, it is impossible for all of them to have personal relationship with him. At least not like a classroom style where teachings and personal thought can be imparted more effectively and for the teacher to know the pupils personally to give effective correction.

Without close personal relationship, the sahabas might know Mohammad but that he might not know them all. And how easy it is to have different understanding and opinions on a given teaching and perception of what has been transpired. It is a fact that no two persons can see the same thing congruently. It is impractical to say that Caliph Uthman had a consensus from all the sahabas on what Mohammad said or on the events that Mohammad went through.

 

[TheSufi]

If we use the standard on the Quran that the Muslims used to authenticate the Bible, the Quran it seems is merely hearsay. Even if we grant the strong oral tradition of the Arabs (as were the Jews) it is still hearsay because Mohammad did not write it and also did not live to verify it. It depends very much on the strength of the recital skill of the sahabas and because they were so many, (more than 100,000 according to their estimates) the chances of exaggeration are higher rather than lower. And considering the highhanded attitude of Caliph Uthman in compiling the Quran (other versions were unceremoniously burnt), it is difficult to imagine that those sahabas who disagreed would dare to oppose the Caliph.

Now, the authenticity of the Quran is not so much that the present Quran is the actual copy that was compiled by Uthman but rather whether that copy is really the correct foolproof revelation from Mohammad. This is unproven because Mohammad was long dead and gone to verify its authenticity. The most that can be said about the Quran is that they tried their best to compile the sayings of Mohammad but obviously much were lost or even inaccurate rendering of the true revelations themselves.

You’re a funny guy. You should think about becoming a comedian.

 

[Reuben_J]

You’re a funny guy. You should think about becoming a comedian.

Calling someone name does not make you are right. Sound familiar? I know it is. You been using that line before.

And sometimes truth hurts a little. You don’t have to respond if you can’t take it because it will just not stop here. There are just too many holes.

 

[Reuben_J]

Muslims: The Gospels were not written by Jesus; they were oral tradition. The original Jesus Gospel (Injeel) was lost.

So it can be said: The Quran was not written by Mohammad. It was written way much later. And Mohammad was not there to verifiy the written Quran which was basically an oral tradition.

 

[Reuben_J]

In an effort to standardize the Quran, Caliph Uthman in compiling it burned all the other versions of the Quran which were purportedly in different dialects. Today we can only believe in what he said though in truth we can never know what have been burnt simply because the evidence had gone to the ashes. It would be interesting to study the burnt version today.

TheSufi had intimated that there were by no means that the disciples/early Christians believed in the same Gospels. He implied that the Ebionites (heretic Judaism) were such early Christians who had different Gospel and different belief.

Now, could it be possible, that there were some sahabas (companions of Mohammad) and by account from Muslims, there were 100,000 of them. Among them, since not all were very close to Mohammad, it is just not practical, would maybe have different view and understanding of the revelation of Mohammad which later written into the Quran by some of the sahabas. We have no evidence because they (the evidence) died in the burning.

 

[jakasaki]

In an effort to standardize the Quran, Caliph Uthman in compiling it burned all the other versions of the Quran which were purportedly in different dialects. Today we can only believe in what he said though in truth we can never know what have been burnt simply because the evidence had gone to the ashes. It would be interesting to study the burnt version today.

TheSufi had intimated that there were by no means that the disciples/early Christians believed in the same Gospels. He implied that the Ebionites (heretic Judaism) were such early Christians who had different Gospel and different belief.

Now, could it be possible, that there were some sahabas (companions of Mohammad) and by account from Muslims, there were 100,000 of them. Among them, since not all were very close to Mohammad, it is just not practical, would maybe have different view and understanding of the revelation of Mohammad which later written into the Quran by some of the sahabas. We have no evidence because they (the evidence) died in the burning.

What also died in burning or destroyed was the original “revelations” which Mohammad claimed to have received from Gabriel - there were written on stones, parchment. animal bones, leaves… etc… etc…

These do not exit ~

 

[Reuben_J]

What also died in burning or destroyed was the original “revelations” which Mohammad claimed to have received from Gabriel - there were written on stones, parchment. animal bones, leaves… etc… etc…

These do not exit ~

Pam, I am sitll trying to figure it out, though for the life of me I can’t. How is that the word of Allah could be found on stones, parchment, animal bones, leaves, some which were eaten, broken and lost … and yet the final written Quran is the final revelation … ?

I was wondering had all the original ‘Quran’ survived without the burning or had somebody else was entrusted to compile the Quran, well, we might have a different Islam today. We never know because we are not made to know.

 

[jakasaki]

Pam, I am sitll trying to figure it out, though for the life of me I can’t. How is that the word of Allah could be found on stones, parchment, animal bones, leaves, some which were eaten, broken and lost … and yet the final written Quran is the final revelation … ?

I was wondering had all the original ‘Quran’ survived without the burning or had somebody else was entrusted to compile the Quran, well, we might have a different Islam today. We never know because we are not made to know.

The bottom line is that if Muslim wish to produce the original scripts, they need to have:

The original …stones, parchment. animal bones, leaves… etc… etc…

 

[Reuben_J]

The bottom line is that if Muslim wish to produce the original scripts, they need to have:

The original …stones, parchment. animal bones, leaves… etc… etc…

Right, since as they say, the Quran is Allah’s word recorded verbatim. It is not like Mohammad was inspired but he recited Allah’s word. If they were lost, how could then the Quran is complete?

 

[TheSufi]

Calling someone name does not make you are right. Sound familiar? I know it is. You been using that line before.

And sometimes truth hurts a little. You don’t have to respond if you can’t take it because it will just not stop here. There are just too many holes.

I am not hurt, your knowledge exceeds your intellect. You have said many things that were incorrect and preferred not to point them out. Many things that you have said just now concerning the Quran is incorrect. What I have already mentioned on the topic is suffiicent as a reply.

And being funny isn’t a bad thing.

Peace.

 

[Reuben_J]

I am not hurt, your knowledge exceeds your intellect. You have said many things that were incorrect and preferred not to point themincorrect a few times. ny things that you have said just now concerning the Quran is incorrect. What I have already mentioned on the topic is suffiicent as a reply.

And being funny isn’t a bad thing.

Peace.

Actually in all of these I am applying your logic and throw it back to you. It seems that you don’t quite agree with it when it’s applied to Mohammad and the Quran.

You have been calling me names which I chose to ignore. Suggesting that I could be a comedian is ain’t funny and frankly I am not impressed. You have been incorrect a few times. If you think I am incorrect, I would be glad for a correction so that the matter can be discussed.

 

[Reuben_J]

What I have already mentioned on the topic is suffiicent as a reply.

You do realize that I could disagree with you, I hope.

 

[TheSufi]

I stand corrected, after speaking to my shaykh concerning the manner.

Abu Bakr is actually the one to commission the gathering the Quran into one book (called Suhuf). This happened within the first three years after the death of Prophet Muhammad. Uthman gathered the Quran into one book (called Mushaf), which was related to dialect. Uthman burned all other copies of the Quran, and no companion objected to it. Ali said, "By God, he did what he did with these fragments in the presence of us all. (ie and none of us objected). [ibn Abi dawud, al Masahif]

They all agreed that the Quran was revealed in Quraysh dialect, which consist of seven dialects, and ten modes of recitation. The dialects that the companions opposed were dialects outside of these seven Quraysh dialects, because Prophet Muhammad never recited the Quran outside of the seven dialects.

How the Quran was preserved?

Prophet Muhammad had approximately 65 scribes, who recorded the Quran when the Prophet instructed them to, on bones, stones, leather etc. Zaid Ibn Thabit was one of the main scribes.

During the time of Abu Bakr, he commissioned **Zaid bin Thabit **to compile the Quran into one book, called Suhuf.

During the time of Uthman, some of the companions would recite the Quran in their own tribal dialect, but Prophet Muhammad only recited Quran in the Quraysh dialect, which consisted of seven dialects, and ten modes of recitation( ten ways to pronounce the seven dialects, which have been preserved.) Upon hearing this Uthman commission 12 companions of Prophet Muhammad, Zaid Bin Thabit was among them, to compose a unified copy of the Quran. And burned all copies as to not cause confusion, and** NOT a single companion objected to Uthman burning those other copies. ** Uthman then sent copies of the Quran, along with a reciters to ensure proper recitation of the Quran to different part of the Muslim world.

I mentioned Zaid Bin Thabit, because he was there at the beginning of recording the Quran, and was then when it was compiled into one book.

He was known for his trustworthiness, his pity, his intelligence, and his memory.** And Zaid Bin Thabit was one of the few companions, who actually heard Angel Gabriel recite the whole Quran to Prophet Muhammad during Ramadaan. ** (Refer to at Tibyan, li Tahir al Jazairi) Angel Gabriel use to review the Quran every year with Prophet Muhammad.

 

[Reuben_J]

This is an honest question which I wanted to ask Muslims. The revelation to Mohammad basically was a recital. It was to be recited by Mohmmad in how it was revealed in a language being used, Quarish. Question - how is that later that it can be recited in other dialect?

Now some rhetoric. There are commentators who would think that Zaid was quite controversial. i have to look for the details though. Been long time I have done this.

That there was no objection to the burning is moot. As I said Uthman was a Caliph with war in the background and how he ascended to the throne. I don’t expect objection either but not for the right reason.

From a non Mudlim perspective the bottom line The Quran wad a hearsay passed orally. Thrte id no guarantee that the original message could not be lost unless the written Quran is passed back for Mohammad to edit or vetified. Thid wad not done ad Mohammad was dead then. For a book to depend on every iota to be the words of Allah recorded verbatim the Quran is not foolproof due to this reason.