Do people who are influenced by their environment, upbringing or psychological problems go to hell and isn’t the ignorance of those who do not believe

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Hi everybody, i’ve been wrestling with something lately. I have been recently questioning the concept of hell. If hell is real why do people go there? Many people grow up in bad families, families without faith, without leaders, without one gender of a parent, or even gangs where they’ve been moulded by the environments and lack of direction, where it even affects their psyche, their mind.

Now the idea of “we don’t know if anyone is in hell” could be consoling, but the fact is that we do. Our Lady of Fatima showed the three shepherd children. And you could say that “you don’t have to believe private revelation,” but if the Church says that people can, then it’s real.

I know that God nudges everyone by their circumstances, but I don’t think it’s fair for people who grow up in households without God to be sent to hell. I know that people choose it of their own accord, but who in their right mind would.

Our lady said two things in the Fatima apparition that are troubling me, one that sinners go to hell for sins of the flesh than any other reason. Wouldn’t people who reject Gods eternal invitation go instead, especially those who never believed in him or got to know him in life. And two she said “pray and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because there are no one to make sacrifices for them.” Why would souls go to hell if we don’t sacrifice for them? Is our actions what saved others, and how is this so? Does it affect their ignorance, which could be their parents or environments influence. What do sacrifices do? And “I don’t know” or “ it’s a mystery, isn’t good enough” isn’t a good enough answer for me right now.

The biggest problem I have is that if hell is an eternity isn’t that a little cruel, considering that environmental and psychological factors can influence and shape an individuals mindset and life?
Thanks

Zachariah
 
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Zblack00 said:
I know that people choose it of their own accord, but who in their right mind would.
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I think it is less that people choose hell and more that people don’t choose God. It’s just that, when you want something other than God, hell is all that remains. While the choice may still not make sense, choosing God isn’t exactly easy for most people. It requires a lot of going against what we find natural, which is why we need God’s grace.
Zblack00 said:
Wouldn’t people who reject Gods eternal invitation go instead
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One aspect of sin is that it often is a rejection of God. That’s what makes mortal sin so terrible. It also threatens to harden our heart against God, and there are people that do ultimately choose their sin over God. I know of plenty of people who have run off to liberal Protestant churches because it is there that their sin may not just be ignored but celebrated.
Zblack00 said:
Why would souls go to hell if we don’t sacrifice for them?
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I think it has something to do with how prayer works, but to be honest, this is one area of Catholic theology I’m not too knowledgeable on, so I’ll let someone else tackle it. I’m kind of interested myself.
 
When something hard happens in our life, we can complain and get mad. Our faith asks us to ‘offer it up’. This prayer has a lot of power…

Jesus I thank you for this cross.
Jesus, I accept this cross for love of you.
Jesus, I offer this cross in union with you for the conversion of sinners and to repair for my own sins.

This is how we can bring grace into the world. We can make that decision and it takes effort. Somehow though Christ we can impact the world for good and at the end of our life He will say Good and faithful servant!
 
About people not making sacrifices. . .well, look at for example if you have a man and a woman who want to have sex but not necessarily be married; they don’t want to make the sacrifice of their ‘freedom’. They have a child or children. They don’t want to make the sacrifice of teaching their child about God because they don’t want to appear ‘controlling’. They want the child to ‘think for himself’. So the child learns nothing about God, nothing about living in a family with married parents who make sacrifices for themselves and their children. The child grows up to be just as self-centered. And while the parents were probably taught religious values themselves as children but decided it ‘didn’t interest them’, they don’t even give their children a chance to accept OR reject teachings, they just ignore the whole subject. Such a child though even if circumstances were ‘shaped’ by ‘environment’ etc still would not lack examples of sacrifice, perhaps by parents, teachers, etc.

And mortal sin itself requires three things: Grave matter (and the recognition of same), full knowledge, and full consent. And it requires not just ‘giving in’ for the finite time of the sin itself, it requires that the person continue in that state, grave matter, full knowledge, full consent, and absolutely no remorse whatsoever, through life and until death itself. And the thing is once we are dead we are IN eternity, so whatever state we are in at death —a state of grace, a state of contrition and sorrow for sin, or a state of being in mortal sin—will CONTINUE for all eternity.

IOW, John commits adultery in his life. He does so knowing it is deeply wrong, and with the full power to NOT commit adultery, but he does it anyway and he is absolutely unremorseful. all his life long. No sorrow, no contrition, so the sin is just constant and he is totally rejecting God his whole life—and then he dies. And he enters eternity and continues for all eternity basically saying, “I committed adultery, I rejected and despised God, I sinned against God, the woman, and my self and my spouse, and I’m not sorry, will never be sorry, and my rejection then will go on forever. I will not change, I have and will forever, with full knowledge and full consent and knowing this is totally evil, continue to choose this evil and to reject God.”

This is what unrepented mortal sin is. THIS is how a person chooses hell. The person does so willingly. The person is not tricked into this; the person does not repent, the person didn’t do something for a ‘finite time’ to be punished ‘eternally’ but instead was, is and continuing to be committing eternal mortal sin against God.
 
There are several ways to consider our making sacrifices for others. The key is in what @PennyinCanada posted (bolds mine):
PennyinCanada said:
Jesus I thank you for this cross.
Jesus, I accept this cross for love of you.
Jesus, I offer this cross in union with you for the conversion of sinners and to repair for my own sins.
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Our sufferings can only take on a redemptive value when they are united to Christ; to His Passion and death. In the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick, one of the 4 effects of the sacrament is that (quoting James P. Campbell, D.Min.) Jesus unites our suffering with his passion and death so that through our suffering we can participate in his saving and healing work.
Vicarious suffering is one of the names given to suffering or sacrifices or reparation we offer on behalf of others. Another name for it is redemptive suffering.
A more extreme (if you will) example of vicarious suffering would be a victim soul.

Vicarious suffering is referred to in the Old Testament and its principal New Testament counterpart is found in Colossians 1:24 [NAB]
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church.
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Again, the key, is that we unite our sacrifices to our Blessed Lord - to His Passion and Death. That is how the sacrifices take on a redemptive value: In Him.

(From Fr. John Hardon S.J.'s Modern Catholic Dictionary:
VICTIM SOUL. A person specially chosen by God to suffer more than most people during life, and who generously accepts the suffering in union with the Savior and after the example of Christ’s own Passion and Death. The motive of a victim soul is a great love of God and the desire to make reparation for the sins of mankind.)
 
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Zblack00 said:
The biggest problem I have is that if hell is an eternity isn’t that a little cruel…
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Yes. The idea of eternal suffering, without redemption, is incompatible with the idea of a moral, all powerful god. Fear is a powerful motivator. And despite what some may say here, it is not an inherent part of Catholic theology.
 
Read Ezekiel chapter 18. It’s too long to post here but it is a great chapter that basically explains that everyone is responsible for their own choices. God bless!
 
@Zblack00

People are judged according to the light that has been given to them. A well-catechized Catholic has a greater responsibility to the welfare of their soul and to the souls of others.

The vision of hell at Fatima was a warning and an appeal to Catholics and Christians and people of goodwill worldwide to renew their prayer lives, to do penance, and to do corporal & spiritual works of mercy.

When I contemplate Fatima, I include myself among the damned souls lost in the Lake of Fire, but Our Lord intervened to prevent this from happening, and now I pray for others as well. Everybody needs to be doing this.

Peace.
 
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TotusTuusForever said:
Read Ezekiel chapter 18. It’s too long to post here but it is a great chapter that basically explains that everyone is responsible for their own choices. God bless!
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This is a tough problem. My natural reaction is to agree with you. If we have free will (and I tend to the position that we might not have it as is generally understood) then what other choice do we have than to blame people for the choice they make? That is, wherefore justice if we don’t have free will?

I was brought up in a good family in a good neighbourhood and went to a good school. Brought up to be a fine upstanding citizen! Well, I have more faults than you would want to know about, but the person I am today is as much a reflection of my upbringing as it is on any other aspect of my life.

So what if I was brought up in some ghetto where drugs were a way of life and violence second nature. I would be a different person. It’s nice to think that my inbuilt sense of what is right and what is wrong might make me stand out from the crowd. But I know that’s not true. We are all led a lot more easily than we like to admit.

So do we punish the guy who was brought up in a nice neighbourhood by a nice family because he should know better and grant an allowance to the guy who, through no fault of his own, was disadvantaged from the very start?

We already make allowances for this when we apply mitigating circumstances during sentencing. The question is: how far should we take these type of factors into account?
 
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Hell is real. Hell is doctrine. It exists. People choose to go there. Some, explicitly. You have heard of Holocaust deniers? We are suffering with a recent wave of hell deniers.
“You don’t believe in hell? You will when you get there”
  • Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
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po18guy said:
Hell is real. Hell is doctrine. It exists. People choose to go there. Some, explicitly. You have heard of Holocaust deniers? We are suffering with a recent wave of hell deniers.
“You don’t believe in hell? You will when you get there”
  • Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
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This is the way I see it:

Believe in Me and do good and you will have everlasting life. Do not believe in Me and do wrong and you shall suffer eternal torment with no possibilty of redemption.

Or…

Believe in Me and do good and you will have everlasting life. Do not believe in Me and do wrong and you will cease to exist and will not be granted eternal life.
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#1 is correct in its simplicity - but there is more to it than that.
#2 “Soul annihilation” is a novelty in Christian thought. Even scripture opposes it.
 
Zblack00 said:
I have been recently questioning the concept of hell. If hell is real why do people go there? Many people grow up in bad families, families without faith, without leaders, without one gender of a parent, or even gangs where they’ve been moulded by the environments and lack of direction, where it even affects their psyche, their mind.
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Hang on a second, though. The notion of “eternal judgment” is subjective, not objective. So, it’s not like God has some sort of “Good-o-meter” that he waves at a person and, if they don’t reach a certain objective reading on the scale, then they are condemned to hell!

Rather, God looks at the circumstances of each person, and judges them based not only on objective criteria, but on criteria grounded in the individual person. So, for instance, let’s suppose that you and I grow up as Catholics, learn the faith, attempt to live it, and then go out and shoot some folks dead. Meantime, there’s a gang member who comes from a broken family, never learns the Gospel message in any meaningful way, and then commits a drive-by shooting.

The Church would say that he, you, and I each committed the objective grave sin of killing a human being. However, you and I would have committed a mortal sin – we knew it was gravely sinful and yet we willingly chose to do it. Our friend the gang member, though? Could we say that he had full knowledge and willing participation? I’m not sure I’d make that claim. So, in that (simple) example, you and I would be condemned to hell, and the gang member would be in heaven!

The point is that God doesn’t do what you suggest:
Zblack00 said:
I don’t think it’s fair for people who grow up in households without God to be sent to hell.
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In fact, the Church teaches exactly the opposite. (Now, there are some non-Catholic Christian denominations who teach exactly what you suggest here. However, the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that.) If you have a chance sometime, take a look at one of the documents of Vatican II, Lumen gentium, and read paragraphs #14 through #16. You’ll find that there’s not one, single, objective standard for salvation, but that we believe that God looks at each of us individually and in our capacity to love Him.
 
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Zblack00 said:
Our lady said two things in the Fatima apparition that are troubling me, one that sinners go to hell for sins of the flesh than any other reason. Wouldn’t people who reject Gods eternal invitation go instead, especially those who never believed in him or got to know him in life.
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“Those who never believed in Him or got to know Him in life” include those who are “invincibly ignorant” – that is, those who are not responsible for having not learned who God is, during their lives. The Church teaches that these people actually can attain to heaven!

On the other hand, let’s look at who is being discussed here: those who profess belief in God and yet live lives of sin. In the letter of James, he points out that their ‘faith’ is actually not operating in their lives; it’s really just an empty claim, devoid of any real meaning: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? … So faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” (James 2:14, 17)

I think that’s what’s in play here: those who claim to have faith, but act otherwise, are condemning themselves by their very actions.
Zblack00 said:
she said “pray and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because there are no one to make sacrifices for them.” Why would souls go to hell if we don’t sacrifice for them?
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She’s not telling us to pray for those who have died in sin, but for those still alive who are sinning, that they might turn away from their sins and embrace God!
 
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In Revelation, Hell is described as a “lake burning with fire and sulphur.”

What would one do on finding oneself in such a lake ?

Well, get out very quickly indeed, is the answer !

But suppose this: if one saw in those dark, fiery waters a glimpse of something with an unhealthy (but captivating) fascination for one - a glimpse of power or applause or status or pleasure or money or possessions or the occult or inflicting violence - might one not be tempted to stay, whatever the consequent pain ?

Perhaps, even to stay forever, despite the pain ?

That is the plight of the damned souls - they are eternally captivated by a desire for (and a glimpse of) something selfish or evil.

“Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” said Jesus.

Sadly, there are people whose treasure - thus their heart - is in Hell, and will be forever.

That’s not what God wants - but what THEY want; and God doesn’t rob them of their free will.
 
Sin is spiritually damaging, sometimes lethally so.

If someone dies in that state of lethal spiritual damage it becomes permanent and eternal.

But a sin is only mortal (lethal) if committed with “full moral consent” - that is with unimpeded free will and full knowledge.

For the former, deliberation and a clear head are needed.

Regarding full knowledge - those whose judgement has been warped by others (e.g. by bad example when young) are thus less damaged by committing a sin in consequence, than would be a person brought up with e.g. good examples around them.
 
When you think about hell, it starts to sink in how devastating the war on the family is. Babies need both a mother and father, united together, to give them a formation of what is good and right. The sexual revolution has given us recreational sex with the pill, and then a demand for abortion services to fix the problem. Widespread living together without marriage, widespread divorce, single parent families, all these things impact the salvation of souls.
Think about hell and your lens on the world will get more clear.
We are indeed in a battle.
 
Zblack00 said:
Hi everybody, i’ve been wrestling with something lately. I have been recently questioning the concept of hell. If hell is real why do people go there? Many people grow up in bad families, families without faith, without leaders, without one gender of a parent, or even gangs where they’ve been moulded by the environments and lack of direction, where it even affects their psyche, their mind.
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No one here is Judging anyone.
No matter whom
The Judge, GOD, Judges Justly…

Hell Exists… SATAN and Co . shall indeed be there. .

_
 
WillPhillips said:
Yes. The idea of eternal suffering, without redemption, is incompatible with the idea of a moral, all powerful god
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When you see that God took flesh and paid the penalty for the sins of the world on the cross, to open heaven for us, the rejection of such a gift is incredible.
 
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