Do Posters on CAF Truly Want to Understand Each Other?

[Jen95]

Oh, immigration, “hurting children”? You mean the policies that the Obama administration started?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Trump is a very flawed man, he is no messiah like leader. But he is arguably a flawed leader like Kings Saul, David, & Solomon.

No, they all repented of their sins before they were transformed into laudable characters. Trump has yet to renounce any of the evil deeds he has done.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

You appear to support left leaning Democrats which seems to imply that you think there is a distinction between

1. individuals in business who are in “positions of authority” and “pick profit over doing the right thing.”
   and
2. individuals in government who are in “positions of authority” and won’t “pick profit over doing the right thing.”

Why should we trust 2) and not trust 1), especially when the group of politicians you promote are advocating growing government power?

Because 1) have an overriding profit motive to often do the wrong thing. 2) are prohibited by law from profiting personally from their actions. 1) are rewarded by their bosses (the stock holders) for doing what brings in the most profit and are rarely punished for injustices committed against others in the process of bringing in those profits. 2) are often punished by being voted out of office if they are caught doing injustice. People who go into public service are generally more altruistic in their profession than people who go into business management. They generally could make more money in the private sector than they could in public service. The fact that they are willing to sacrifice that potential speaks highly of the probability that they will work for justice.

 

[tryingbygrace]

Honestly due to this forum being anonymous, theres a lot of weird stuff that is said here. I prefer to ask most personal questions in small Catholic Facebook group communities such as Blessed Is She where people act a lot more genuine and dont attack eachother

 

[Casey]

Don’t feed the trolls!

 

[po18guy]

We are (were) a nation of laws and not of men, or women. I vote for ideas, not the man or woman. Who they are personally is secondary, but cannot be divorced from the primary reason.

Well did the Lord prophesy of this generation. We bemoan broken political promises. Then, we bemoan kept political promises.

We bear witness against ourselves as sheep without a shepherd.

 

[dochawk]

This thread has degenerated into exactly the type that led to the question in the first place! (which is why I set this as a reply to the original post, rather than any particular post).

I would encourage everyone who has posts above about why the other side is wrong, rather than the matter of getting along, to delete their posts.

 

[Dolphin]

Oh, immigration, “hurting children”? You mean the policies that the Obama administration started?

Stop. Just because someone started a policy doesn’t make it a moral excuse for Trump to continue and expand the policy. Stop pointing out the errors of Obama and turning a blind eye to Trump’s as well.

”You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

• Matthew 7:5

 

[Servant31]

Lol I was just about to post that…

 

[Servant31]

We should all reread the original post…

 

[Jen95]

You know, I don’t see the link to the video in that first post. Am I missing something, or did it disappear?

 

[Neithan]

So why wouldn’t you vote for the American Solidarity Party? I’m not American, so I’m not promoting them. But I’m guessing U.S. Catholics (who care about issues according to the “mind of the church”) either don’t know about them or consider it a throwaway vote.

 

[HarryStotle]

Never said that. You are assuming since I don’t trust Republican/Trumpists that I DO trust Democrats. I never said that.

You did say…

I don’t trust Republican/Trumpist politicians. They have lost all of my respect. I would never trust “those who are not Democrats” to do anything right.

I suppose the logical implication is that you trust NO non-Democrats, but that you do trust SOME Democrats, though, perhaps, not all.

Your statement amounts to “I don’t trust Republican/Trumpists or any non-Democrats” but … I DO trust [some] Democrats.

Would that be about right?

I am, (in the spirit of this thread) trying to understand you.

Also, just as an implication of your statement that you don’t trust non-Democrats, does that extend to those you support or vote for non-Democrats? Do you not trust them, either?

How would that affect the question of the opening post in terms of wanting to “understand” others on CAF?

 

[Emeraldlady]

So why wouldn’t you vote for the American Solidarity Party? I’m not American, so I’m not promoting them. But I’m guessing U.S. Catholics (who care about issues according to the “mind of the church”) either don’t know about them or consider it a throwaway vote.

There is a solution right under the noses of citzens of the US in the ASP. I have read a lot about the revolution and the founding fathers and first principles and the answers to these sorts of problems are there imbedded in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. The final first principle is the very right to declare revolution when the other First Principles are not being properly upheld! Well it’s not feasible to take up arms or activate a technical militia to revolt… but a band of like minded righteous Catholics/Christians casting a vote for a fully Christian platform would shake the foundations of the dinosaur that the political institution has become in the US.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

So you mistrust those in business to do the right thing BECAUSE “those in authority pick profit over doing the right thing,” yet you trust those politicians who positively want more government authority to regulate EVERYTHING – the economy, the society, speech, etc. – to do the right thing.

Economic history is full of examples of this. But you are missing the point. No one says everyone in government does the right thing. Far from it. But when you add MONEY, greed, the root of all evil, one of the seven deadly sins, etc etc - as a fundamental principle - you must regulate those decisions because some will choose greed over the welfare of others. In government (non-profits), this doesn’t occur except through corruption. In unregulated Capitalism (what Trump and Republicans promote), this is LEGAL.

Only if you equate making profit to greed, but that would be using terms ambiguously in your argument, besides that you are letting your prejudices against capitalists taint your argument.

Another name for unregulated capitalism is “free market.” Ideally, a government in a free market economy only regulates against dishonesty, misrepresentation and fraud, but allows the market forces to work out the rest.

The problem today isn’t unregulated capitalism but regulated crony capitalism where politics and the market have deep hooks into each other.

By the way, completely government regulated capitalism is called Naziism or National Socialism, or something of what is happening in China, which has more billionaires than any other nation on earth.

A staggering 242 new Chinese billionaires were minted over the past year, propelling the country ahead of America for the first time, according to Hurun Report’s annual China rich list. China now has 596 billionaires, compared to 537 in the U.S.
Source: China now has more billionaires than U.S.

 

[PaulinVA]

Your statement amounts to “I don’t trust Republican/Trumpists or any non-Democrats” but … I DO trust [some] Democrats.

Would that be about right?

No, it’s not right. Don’t put words in my mouth or make things up.

Take my statement at face value.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Your statement amounts to “I don’t trust Republican/Trumpists or any non-Democrats” but … I DO trust [some] Democrats.

Would that be about right?

No, it’s not right. Don’t put words in my mouth or make things up.

Take my statement at face value.

Your statement was…

I don’t trust Republican/Trumpist politicians. They have lost all of my respect. I would never trust “those who are not Democrats” to do anything right.

Perhaps you could clarify where I am “not right.”

At face value, it has two parts:

1. You don’t trust Republican/Trumpist politicians BECAUSE they have lost all of your respect.
2. You would never trust “those who are not Democrats” to do anything right.

By stipulating “those who are not Democrats” as the politicians you would not trust to do anything right, the inference is that there are at least some Democrats who you would trust.

Is that NOT correct?

If that isn’t the proper inference, then logically speaking you have TWO options:

1. You left out Democrats from the “non-Democrats” set because there are some/all Democrats that you do trust.
2. You left out Democrats in specifying the non-Democrats that you do not trust because you have not made any firm assessment on the trustworthiness of Democrats and are not ready to include/exclude them from the class of politicians you do not trust.

Am I missing something? A third option?

Feel free to specify what the “face value” of your statement is that I am missing.

 

[Jen95]

So why wouldn’t you vote for the American Solidarity Party? I’m not American, so I’m not promoting them. But I’m guessing U.S. Catholics (who care about issues according to the “mind of the church”) either don’t know about them or consider it a throwaway vote.

Here is the thing: Yes, Sacred Scripture and the catechism teach that Christians should care for the poor, take care of the sick, and be hospitable to the foreigner. However, not all Catholics (and other Christians) believe that the federal government should be the one carrying out this biblical mandate.
It literally is a question of “what is the role of the federal government in solving social problems?”

1. Do people agree with the saying “that which the government subsidizes, it encourages”?
   That is the basis of a lot of US tax code, is it not? The government wants to encourage home ownership, so it gives homeowners a tax break.
2. Do people become reliant on government benefits? Is that part of the reason that there is multi-generational poverty?
3. To what degree does the illegitimacy rate correspond to child / family poverty?
4. Why do some populations flourish in the US while others do not care as well?
5. American solidarity party has certain values that will appeal to (orthodox) Catholics and not too many other Christians, such as restricting IVF. How many other Christians disapprove of IVF? I genuinely don’t know.
6. American solidarity party has interesting ideas such as subsidizing stay-at-home parents. How is that going to work in the real world?

 

[HarryStotle]

Neithan:

So why wouldn’t you vote for the American Solidarity Party? I’m not American, so I’m not promoting them. But I’m guessing U.S. Catholics (who care about issues according to the “mind of the church”) either don’t know about them or consider it a throwaway vote.

Here is the thing: Yes, Sacred Scripture and the catechism teach that Christians should care for the poor, take care of the sick, and be hospitable to the foreigner. However, not all Catholics (and other Christians) believe that the federal government should be the one carrying out this biblical mandate.
It literally is a question of “what is the role of the federal government in solving social problems?”

1. Do people agree with the saying “that which the government subsidizes, it encourages”?
   That is the basis of a lot of US tax code, is it not? The government wants to encourage home ownership, so it gives homeowners a tax break.
2. Do people become reliant on government benefits? Is that part of the reason that there is multi-generational poverty?
3. To what degree does the illegitimacy rate correspond to child / family poverty?
4. Why do some populations flourish in the US while others do not care as well?

The assumption among Democrats/Liberals/Progressives is that the more government gets involved the better it is for everyone. They cannot seem to fathom that government involvement might have negative consequences by incentivizing negative behaviour.

All the civil rights legislation of the 1960s didn’t exactly improve the lot of Blacks, for example.

The Moynihan Report…

• In 1950, 17 percent of African-American children lived in a home with their mother but not their father. By 2010 that had increased to 50 percent.
• In 1965, only eight percent of childbirths in the Black community occurred out-of-wedlock. In 2010 that figure was 41 percent; and today, the out-of-wedlock childbirth in the Black community sits at an astonishing 72 percent.
• The number of African-American women married and living with their spouse was recorded as 53 percent in 1950. By 2010, it had dropped to 25 percent.

The Black and Hispanic unemployment rate is at its lowest ever. The jobless rate for Hispanics hit a record low of 3.9% in September, while African Americans maintained its lowest rate ever, 5.5%.

Black and Hispanic unemployment is at a record low

With regard to education…
California teacher salaries are second highest in the country after New York, it but ranks dead last in number of graduates from high school.

 

[HarryStotle]

Come on. Let’s has a rational discussion here. How do you go from me saying regulation is critical to the success of a capitalistic economy to Nazism and Socialism? Come one. Please.

I suppose your use of hyperbole, as if Trump and the Republicans positively INVENTED greed and made it legal, threw me off in terms of the “rationality” of your post.

Economic history is full of examples of this. But you are missing the point. No one says everyone in government does the right thing. Far from it. But when you add MONEY, greed, the root of all evil, one of the seven deadly sins, etc etc - as a fundamental principle - you must regulate those decisions because some will choose greed over the welfare of others. In government (non-profits), this doesn’t occur except through corruption. In unregulated Capitalism (what Trump and Republicans promote), this is LEGAL.

Speaking of rationality, Trump and Republicans do not promote unregulated capitalism. That would be a misrepresentation – and you know it – there are major issues with over-regulation, which is what Trump is concerned about.

On the other hand, this is what happens when a government ignores the market and tries to stimulate the economy according to ideological preferences…

https://www.dividedstates.com/list-of-failed-obama-green-energy-solar-companies/