Do Protestants have "Faith"?

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roguejim

Let me ask you a different question…

As I have stated… The CATHOLIC CHURCH views those that have accepted the triune baptism as Catholic (albeit nonpracticing) but Catholic all the same…

If they are not Christians and/or do not have faith, then why does the Catholic Church accept their baptism?

Further more…

if the statement “There is no salvation outside of the church…” means as a pew sitting catholic, and that it excludes protestants, then why has the CHURCH repeatedly say it does NOT limit just to pew sitting Catholic?

If protestants have no faith, and or are not Christians…

Why does the CHURCH refer to protestants as Brothers and sister in Christ. The harshest statement you will generally hear is they are “Separated” Brethren.

Why does the CHURCH refer to them as Christians…

But… since you retorted that in stead of you taking your question to the church, that I should…

So be it…

We are two Catholics in disagreement… If you do not wish to go to the church, but to instead trust your own interpretation of speeches, statements, etc made by the Church…

So be it…

I will take our disagreement to the Church and see what the CHURCH has to say…

I will send a request to the “Ask an Apologist” if you (or I) will agree to accept what they say.

I will be utterly shocked if they come back and say Protestants are not Christians… but…

I will take it to the Church as Scripture demands…

In Christ
 
A question has been submitted… They usually are responded by Father Vincent Serpa…

Here is the question posted
Peace to you in Christ
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I am in a friendly debate over in the Non-Catholic forums regarding whether or not Protestants have faith, and or are not Christians…
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My view is that if they were baptized in the Triune format, the Church regards them as valid Christians with valid faith…
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I also make the point that protestants baptized this way are also members of the invisible part of the Catholic Church…
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His/Her view is that the church seems to imply that if you are not a Card Carrying Catholic ( ie member of church St X Catholic Church) then the Church says you are not Catholic either as part of the Visible or Invisible, you have no faith, and implies that you are not a Christian…
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Since It seemed we were at an impasse, I suggested we “take it to the church” as scripture commands us to do if we are in debate…
So, here I am , coming before you as two Catholics coming to a Priest in the hopes of settling this dispute…
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In case I have slanted what was said, you may read the full thread here so that you can read all of his/her arguments
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In Christ
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I did what I could to NOT slant the question, but mentioned if it does appear I am slanting to review this thread…

I will accept his response regardless…

I implore you to do the same…

In Christ
 
Singinbeauty said:
Wow, it seems that others would disagree with you since they got what I was saying and agreed. SHOCK Some are even catholic!!! :bigyikes:

I think that you should hang back on responding and starting threads on the Non-Catholic forum because you obviously have NO idea what you are talking about when it comes to protestants or even what your own catechism says about us. Come back in the spirit of seeking Truth and then we can talk… 👍
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This has nothing to do with the post but i did see at the bottom of your posts that your honey is deployed. Thank you for your sacrifice as I am sure this is hard on you and please give him my thanks for his service to our country. God Bless both of you.
 
roguejim said:
Heisenburg,
I never thought I’d see the day that a Catholic(?) would say that Protestants are Catholic. Just astounding. Pope Paul VI would seem to disagree. It might be worth reiterating that Protestantism is still heresy. If Protestants are Catholic, can you then tell me what the value of Truth is? If I can enter Heaven believing the Assumption, and a non-Catholic can enter Heaven vehemently denying the Assumption, then Truth has no bearing in the economy of salvation, does it? I might suggest you read the Athanasian Creed where it says we are to, above all else, hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate in order to be saved. I think you need to take your belief that “Protestants are Catholics” to the Church. I have brought the traditional mind of the Church to you.

“Our Lord Jesus Christ, in testifying that those who are not with Him are His adversaries, does not designate any particular form of heresy,
but declares that all heretics who do not gather with Him scatter His flock and are His enemies.”
POPE LEO XIII

“Whosoever has cut himself off from the Church of Rome has become an alien to Christianity.”
POPE ST. BONIFACE I

“Hence, the separated heresies have been torn off like dead branches. Some are at a very great distance from Christ, others are disinherited for some slight matter and have made themselves and their children aliens from Him: they are outside the boundaries
but have set themselves up outside. They have nothing left of Christ but the name.”
ST EPIPHANIUS

“The Catholic Church alone, then, Christ calls His Spouse. The Church, therefore, is one; this cannot be said amongst any of those who are heretics or schismatics. The churches of every one of the heretics is prostituted; they are churches which Christ repudiates as unnecessary, since He is the Spouse of the One Church.”
ST OPTATUS OF MILEVUS

“Because there is no Holy Spirit outside the Church, it is impossible for there to be any sound faith not only among heretics but even among those who are established in schism.”
ST CYPRIAN
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but BEFORE the Catholic church proclaimed the dogma of Assumption ( in 1950 if I remember well ! ), you could be a “good Catholic” without believing in Assumption although some people already believed it, but it was not a dogma yet …
so were these Catholics heretics too ? why should have they believed something that was not yet “compulsory” ???
and can’t the same thing apply to us then ???
the situation is even more difficult for Protestants than before the Reformation precisely because since then the Catholic church has added new dogmas …so it makes it more difficult for us to get nearer …
 
“One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (IV Lateran Council, A.D. 1215)

The St. Pius X Catechism;
**3 Q: Who is a true Christian? **

A: A true Christian is he who is baptized, who*** believes and professes the Christian Doctrine, and obeys the lawful pastors of the Church***.
 
Non-catholic Christians are just that …Christian

Did not Jesus Himself say that ALL who call upon His Name shall be saved?

This is the same answer I give to non-catholics who begin the “catholics are not christian” speech

Dear Lord,why do we do this to each other???
 
Summa Theologica Secunda Secundæ Partis 5:

Article 3. Whether a man who disbelieves one article of faith, can have lifeless faith in the other articles?

Objection 1. It would seem that a heretic who disbelieves one article of faith, can have lifeless faith in the other articles. For the natural intellect of a heretic is not more able than that of a catholic. Now a catholic’s intellect needs the aid of the gift of faith in order to believe any article whatever of faith. Therefore it seems that heretics cannot believe any articles of faith without the gift of lifeless faith.

Objection 2. Further, just as faith contains many articles, so does one science, viz. geometry, contain many conclusions. Now a man may possess the science of geometry as to some geometrical conclusions, and yet be ignorant of other conclusions. Therefore a man can believe some articles of faith without believing the others.

Objection 3. Further, just as man obeys God in believing the articles of faith, so does he also in keeping the commandments of the Law. Now a man can obey some commandments, and disobey others. Therefore he can believe some articles, and disbelieve others.

On the contrary, Just as mortal sin is contrary to charity, so is disbelief in one article of faith contrary to faith. Now charity does not remain in a man after one mortal sin. Therefore neither does faith, after a man disbelieves one article.

I answer that, Neither living nor lifeless faith remains in a heretic who disbelieves one article of faith.

The reason of this is that the species of every habit depends on the formal aspect of the object, without which the species of the habit cannot remain. Now the formal object of faith is the First Truth, as manifested in Holy Writ and the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth. Consequently whoever does not adhere, as to an infallible and Divine rule, to the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth manifested in Holy Writ, has not the habit of faith, but holds that which is of faith otherwise than by faith. Even so, it is evident that a man whose mind holds a conclusion without knowing how it is proved, has not scientific knowledge, but merely an opinion about it. Now it is manifest that he who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things; but if he is not obstinate, he is no longer in heresy but only in error. Therefore it is clear that such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will.

Reply to Objection 1. A heretic does not hold the other articles of faith, about which he does not err, in the same way as one of the faithful does, namely by adhering simply to the Divine Truth, because in order to do so, a man needs the help of the habit of faith; but he holds the things that are of faith, by his own will and judgment.

Reply to Objection 2. The various conclusions of a science have their respective means of demonstration, one of which may be known without another, so that we may know some conclusions of a science without knowing the others. On the other hand faith adheres to all the articles of faith by reason of one mean, viz. on account of the First Truth proposed to us in Scriptures, according to the teaching of the Church who has the right understanding of them. Hence whoever abandons this mean is altogether lacking in faith.

Reply to Objection 3. The various precepts of the Law may be referred either to their respective proximate motives, and thus one can be kept without another; or to their primary motive, which is perfect obedience to God, in which a man fails whenever he breaks one commandment, according to James 2:10: “Whosoever shall . . . offend in one point is become guilty of all.”
 
Here we go again with the heretic word.

Sorry, but they are Christians and should be treated as brethren in Christ. Even when they throw the same heretic word at us and do not treat us as brethen.

Not gonna change my mind. And it is not a sin for me to think this way. No matter who says it is so. When I die, and stand before Jesus for my Last Judgement, if He tells me I was wrong, then I will agree . He is my Lord and Savior.
 
Actually this would be a good poll question Catholics who converted from the Protestant faith.

Did you have faith prior to your conversion to Catholicism?
 
Huguenot said:
but BEFORE the Catholic church proclaimed the dogma of Assumption ( in 1950 if I remember well ! ), you could be a “good Catholic” without believing in Assumption although some people already believed it, but it was not a dogma yet …
so were these Catholics heretics too ? why should have they believed something that was not yet “compulsory” ???
and can’t the same thing apply to us then ???
the situation is even more difficult for Protestants than before the Reformation precisely because since then the Catholic church has added new dogmas …so it makes it more difficult for us to get nearer …
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**That’s a different topic 🙂 **​

"[C]an’t the same thing apply to us ?" - the comparison fails for this reason: a Catholic is in full communion with the Pope or Council or episcopate that defines previously-undefined dogma X.
**Christians on the other side of the Reformation divide are in communion with the CC in many important respects: the communion is a real one, not a phantom: those on either side are very definitely “brothers in Christ” (even though the fraternal relationship is sometimes of the Cain & Abel variety :cool:) - but, the union is not complete in doctrine & faith, nor in discipline, nor in assumptions about authority. **
**In short: Catholics in 1949 were in the same Church under the same conditions as the Popes in 1950 or 1965 or 2008. Which is not quite the case with Christians on the other side of the Reformation. **
Hope that helps
 
mozart-250 said:
Actually this would be a good poll question Catholics who converted from the Protestant faith.

Did you have faith prior to your conversion to Catholicism?
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To have faith is all God’s work, & only partly man’s - I trust I had it then, & I trust I have faith now.​

More to the point: if Protestants who seem to have faith don’t have it, then there is no reason to think Catholics do. George Muller (d.1898) is like many canonised Catholic Saints in his absolute reliance on Divine Providence: if his life was not one continued exhibition of faith in God, then there is no reason - except partisan bigotry - to think that Catholics who showed a similar trust in God had faith
either.

For one group of Christians to say that another group of Christians does not have faith, is suicidal. The 35 Anglicans who were martyred in Uganda along with 22 Catholics will never be canonised, but they are no different from their Catholic fellow-martyrs who were, in 1964. What does the shared suffering of both groups show, if not faith ? To deny that of either is to deny that of both.

IMO, denials that other Christians have faith because of their churchmanship can be explained by ignorance.

On George Mueller:

…Let this lecture still confine itself to the description of phenomena; and as a concrete example of an extreme sort, of the way in which the prayerful life may still be led, let me take a case with which most of you must be acquainted, that of George Muller of Bristol, who died in 1898. Muller’s prayers were of the crassest petitional order. Early in life he resolved on taking certain Bible promises in literal sincerity, and on letting himself be fed, not by his own worldly foresight, but by the Lord’s hand. He had an extraordinarily active and successful career, among the fruits of which were the distribution of over two million copies of the Scripture text, in different languages; the equipment of several hundred missionaries; the circulation of more than a hundred and eleven million of scriptural books, pamphlets, and tracts; the building of five large orphanages, and the keeping and educating of thousands of orphans; finally, the establishment of schools in which over a hundred and twenty-one thousand youthful and adult pupils were taught. In the course of this work Mr. Muller received and administered nearly a million and a half of pounds sterling, and traveled over two hundred thousand miles of sea and land. [10 (http://www.csp.org/experience/james-varieties/james-varieties19.html#10) During the sixty-eight years of his ministry, be never owned any property except his clothes and furniture, and cash in hand; and he left, at the age of eighty-six, an estate worth only a hundred and sixty pounds.

His method was to let his general wants be publicly known, but not to acquaint other people with the details of his temporary necessities. For the relief of the latter, he prayed directly to the Lord, believing that sooner or later prayers are always answered if one have trust enough. “When I lose such a thing as a key,” he writes, “I ask the Lord to direct me to it, and I look for an answer to my prayer; when a person with whom I have made an appointment does not come, according to the fixed time, and I begin to be inconvenienced by it, I ask the Lord to be pleased to hasten him to me, and I look for an answer; when I do not understand a passage of the word of God, I lift up my heart to the Lord that he would be pleased by his Holy Spirit to instruct me, and I expect to be taught, though I do not fix the time when, and the manner how it should be; when I am going to minister in the Word, I seek help from the Lord, and… am not cast down, but of good cheer because I look for his assistance.”

Muller’s custom was to never run up bills, not even for a week. “As the Lord deals out to us by the day,… the week’s payment might become due and we have no money to meet it; and thus those with whom we deal might be inconvenienced by us, and we be found acting against the commandment of the Lord: ‘Owe no man anything.’ From this day and henceforward whilst the Lord gives to us our supplies by the day, we purpose to pay at once for every article as it is purchased, and never to buy anything except we can pay for it at once, however much it may seem to be needed, and however much those with whom we deal may wish to be paid only by the week.”

more here:
 
Doxiemom said:
Here we go again with the heretic word.

Sorry, but they are Christians and should be treated as brethren in Christ. Even when they throw the same heretic word at us and do not treat us as brethen.

Not gonna change my mind. And it is not a sin for me to think this way. No matter who says it is so. When I die, and stand before Jesus for my Last Judgement, if He tells me I was wrong, then I will agree . He is my Lord and Savior.
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If a person calls you a heretic than understand they are uneducated and ignorant in faith matters.

One not being first a Catholic could not be a heretic
 
Doxiemom said:
Here we go again with the heretic word.

Sorry, but they are Christians and should be treated as brethren in Christ. Even when they throw the same heretic word at us and do not treat us as brethen.

Not gonna change my mind. And it is not a sin for me to think this way. No matter who says it is so. When I die, and stand before Jesus for my Last Judgement, if He tells me I was wrong, then I will agree . He is my Lord and Savior.
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the persons such as Martin Luther and King Henry the 8th rejected the Church and as such rejected Jesus. Attempted to change the Dogma of the Church and as such were branded for all times as Heretics. Jesus is the Church.

The Catholic dogma is indeed that outside the Church there is no salvation, but your interpretation of what this dogma means is flawed. The Church does not presume to know who will be in heaven with God. It makes no judgments in this matter whatsoever. The ancient phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus (literally, “outside the Church no salvation”) has been a widely accepted principle since the earliest days of Christianity. Since the Church has no authority to deny long-established principles, it cannot simply throw out time-honored truths to suit the current fads of thinking.

Acts 4:12 says that salvation is found in no one other than Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” This verse and many others make it abundantly clear that Christ is the only Savior of the world. That is precisely why the Church says that its existence in the world is necessary for salvation: because we would not know of Christ had it not been for the Church. In Acts 4:12, Peter is pointing to Christ as the Savior, but he does so as an authoritative witness to Christ, as his chosen apostle. The people to whom Peter was preaching would not know of Christ except through his witness as the leader of the Church. So we can say that the proclamation of Christ by the Church is necessary for salvation. Outside of Christ there is no salvation and, by implication, outside the Church there is no salvation.

Let’s say the Cathoic Church dissolves and the Catholic Church was to say the bible was a lie so the bible without the Church Scripture would cease to exist as the church responsible for it’s writtings through the Holy Spirit and what is contained in it would be a lie.

Do you not get that?
 
c659smith said:
the persons such as Martin Luther and King Henry the 8th rejected the Church and as such rejected Jesus. Attempted to change the Dogma of the Church and as such were branded for all times as Heretics. Jesus is the Church.

The Catholic dogma is indeed that outside the Church there is no salvation, but your interpretation of what this dogma means is flawed. The Church does not presume to know who will be in heaven with God. It makes no judgments in this matter whatsoever. The ancient phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus (literally, “outside the Church no salvation”) has been a widely accepted principle since the earliest days of Christianity. Since the Church has no authority to deny long-established principles, it cannot simply throw out time-honored truths to suit the current fads of thinking.

Acts 4:12 says that salvation is found in no one other than Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” This verse and many others make it abundantly clear that Christ is the only Savior of the world. That is precisely why the Church says that its existence in the world is necessary for salvation: because we would not know of Christ had it not been for the Church. In Acts 4:12, Peter is pointing to Christ as the Savior, but he does so as an authoritative witness to Christ, as his chosen apostle. The people to whom Peter was preaching would not know of Christ except through his witness as the leader of the Church. So we can say that the proclamation of Christ by the Church is necessary for salvation. Outside of Christ there is no salvation and, by implication, outside the Church there is no salvation.

Let’s say the Cathoic Church dissolves and the Catholic Church was to say the bible was a lie so the bible without the Church Scripture would cease to exist as the church responsible for it’s writtings through the Holy Spirit and what is contained in it would be a lie.

Do you not get that?
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so let me try to follow this “no salvation outside the Church” thinking. All Catholics and Protestants believe salvation is found in Christ alone…that we agree upon. But the Catholic Church says for those outside it, there is no salvation. So from this logic, if one were to believe in Christ and believe in Him with all their heart, soul and mind, and they were not Catholic, either they are not truely saved or there is salvation outside the Church. The Bible makes the simple statement “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.” The argument that Peter was speaking as head of the Church is up for debate, and always will be as long as their are non-Catholics, but to say that knowledge of Christ is found and dispensed only through the Church is faulty. Again, what about the thousands who have come to Christ via a Billy Graham crusade? Or those who attend Christian concerts and believe in Christ from the preaching? The Church is a vehicle of God’s grace and not the sole dispenser of faith and the salvific message.
 
Christ did not intend for only men who lived in the Apostles’ lifetime to know and live the Truth. He ensured that the deposit of faith would be passed on throughout the generations so that all might have an opportunity to believe all that He entrusted to the Apostles – “I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world” (Matt. 28:20). His truth, the actual truth, never changes, and it is as important to hold it today as it was in the first century. It is only by holding to what is true that we can love and serve God and be saved, for false principles lead to evil actions. Since there is only one truth and it is unchanging and indispensable, it is impossible for more than one of the systems of belief or religions that exist in the world to lead to salvation. Any other position negates the words of Our Lord.

It is certainly through the Catholic Church that Our Lord has guided men to keep the deposit entrusted to the Apostles throughout the centuries. It is the Catholic Church that defeated the many heresies against the nature and person of Christ, long before Protestant denominations appeared, such as Arianism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, Nestorianism, Pelagianism, Apollonarism, etc… – all of these had to be opposed vigorously with the true doctrine before they were extirpated, and some still exist today. It is the Catholic Church that holds to the same doctrines that the Fathers, who had the words of the Apostles “resounding in their ears”, taught and defended and which all but the schismatics reject today – auricular confession, veneration of images, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the existence of seven sacraments, the Church as the final arbiter of all doctrinal disputes, and many more. It is only the Catholic Church that has not changed and it is only She that has existed since the time of Christ.

www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml
 
St. Irenaeus (130-202), Bishop and Martyr: “The Church is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them . . . . We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come . . . . Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons.”

St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved.”

St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): “All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!”

St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins”…For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church … How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!”

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958): Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science." (The dates for the two Popes are the years they reigned as Sovereign Pontiffs.)

www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml
 
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