Do Protestants Really Hate Catholicism?

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Wow! I have just spent the last 1 1/2 hours reading the whole thread. You guys are amazing! You have been so respectul to each other unlike some others I have read,

I used to be a heinz 57 protestant, skipping from one church to another because there was always a sense that something was not quite right. When I went to a “Christian” high school, I was taught that Catholicism was evil, wrong and possibly the “Whore of Babylong” from the book of Revelation.

I softenend my stance on that as I grew up and actually met Catholics (my parents didn’t like Catholics and there weren’t many in the town I grew up in)

As an adult I had many Catholic friends who love the Lord. I used to say ,“I know there are SOME catholics that are saved!” Pretty big of me, huh??

After a 3 yr journey, and kicking about half the way, I finally entered the Church in 2000!!

I can tell you this about hatred of Catholics. My husband is a cradle Catholic who really had no idea about the animosity that is out there. It is there. And it isn’t the worse from Protestants but from the new atheists and other groups.

I happen to be a writer for examiner.com and when I wrote an article about the possibility of Catholic hospitals being closed should the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA) be passed, you would not believe the hateful comments I received. I was warned to have thick skin.–it is getting thicker all the time!! If you don’t believe some of the vitrolic verbal assaults I have had, please feel free to check them out.

The Catholic Church is one of the last politically correct group that people can outwardly insult and hate. (I didnt say the ONLY group!)

I love it here because of the atmosphere of respectful disagreement. Keep it up guys! I am learning more and more from you.

Thank you!
May the peace of Christ be with you,

Pam

Wow, someone with the last name Luther who converted to the Catholic Church! Now where is JonNC? I think he may get a kick out of that.

Anyways selah, you touched on a very important aspect in all of this in that you state as you got to know what the Church really taught, your position against the church began to soften. This has been my experience; that when people start to discover what the Church really teaches, their position generally starts to turn away from open hostility. There are still disagreements, but usually the person can see where the Church is coming from, they just disagree with it

God bless

 

[selah603]

Wow, someone with the last name Luther who converted to the Catholic Church! Now where is JonNC? I think he may get a kick out of that.

Anyways selah, you touched on a very important aspect in all of this in that you state as you got to know what the Church really taught, your position against the church began to soften. This has been my experience; that when people start to discover what the Church really teaches, their position generally starts to turn away from open hostility. There are still disagreements, but usually the person can see where the Church is coming from, they just disagree with it

God bless

Lol!! You know, most people don’t notice the last name!. Actually I believe that most of Martin Luther’s family remained Catholic. I used to kid around and say he was the black sheep of the family. Actually, my husband is descended from one of Martin Luther’s brothers… who remained Catholic!!!

You are exactly right about the softening of hearts when people with open hearts really say yes to the Holy Spirit and star to study. There was a chesterton quote earlier in the thread which talked about people finding it hard to resist the Church once they let down their guard and prejudice. There is another part of the quote that I can’t find right off hand that Chesterton said but I think it is in context with that previous quote. It said something like this (my paraphrase) “like iron filings to a magnet, so it is for people when they let down their guard to the Catholic Church.” I’d like to find that quote in its true context. If anyone has it, please let me know!!

Peace,

Pam

 

[Church_Militant]

hey militant, i’ll be your huckleberry.

That’s cool, but you’re not Doc Holliday…I am.http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr30/JaredCrawfordWhite/189_kilmer_doc_275.jpg

on the record, i don’t hate catholics. i’d say about 80% of my family if not more are catholic so how could i hate my beloved family, uncles, aunts, cousins etc.

I would never assert that anyone who names the name of Christ as Lord does so.

Still, we have heard many times where n-Cs say they do indeed hate our most holy faith, so you might want to speak to that issue for clarification.

Revelation 3:1-6…

5 "The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.

i put the whole context, so that all who read will know exactly what is being said, and as for your quotation of verse 5, it doesn’t seem to be the same as it is written here in bold.

this is what you stated: (but I would simply point out that Revelation 3:5 clearly says that the names blotted out of the Book of life were written in it). that is not true as you read above in bold letters is verse 5 of revelation. what it clearly says is that ‘the victor will thus be dressed in white, and i will never erase his name from the book of life’. it does not say he will blot out any names on the contrary he will never blot out their names. now who are these victors? going back one verse (4), a few people who have not soiled their garments and are worthy.I’m not sure what translation that is but it looks similar to the NIV. Anyway I have checked most of the best translations:shrug: given at Bible gateway and American Standard, NASB, NKJV, Amplified (Gives both), and even Young’s Literal Translation all say blot. The majority of translators say, “will not blot” and the same is true for the tense.

so who are the people that won’t be found in the book of life?

in verse 1 in this letter to the sardis, God is not giving good news, in fact he is letting them know with warning of their deeds and reputation of being alive but are dead.

So are you saying that all of this only applies to Sardis? Not likely, and not held by even most of the n-Cs I have talked with.

in verse 2 he the warning to wake up! the things that are still good, that still have a little bit of life to strengthen them cause he has not found their works good in the sight of God.

Here’s where you start to run into problems that directly relate to this OSAS concept. Most n-Cs tell me that our works mean nothing with regard to our salvation and if you hold that position, then this verse is contradictory because here (again…there are other places in the New Testament…) look at what the Lord says, “I know thy works, that thou hast the name of being alive: and thou art dead. 2 Be watchful and strengthen the things that remain, which are ready to die. For I find not thy works full before my God.”

This admonition is based upon what? Works, right?

OSAS/ES teaches that post conversion works have no effect on salvation, but this passage and Matthew 25: 31-46 contradicts that teaching.

in verse 3 he reminds them of what the have received and heard (the gospel) and to obey it and repent, then the warning of staying asleep and will come in like a thief without notice.

these people who have not repented and trusted in the gospel of Jesus Christ, are the ones whose names will not be found. it does not say that the will blotted out (erased) cause their names are not their to begin with.

Hold it. Both times the people in question are addressed as being members of the Church & they are judged and condemned based on what they did or didn’t do. Certainly that’s a different issue, but it seems to marginally touch on this topic as well.

Footnotes 1, 2 & 3

the above commentary is not of mine but taken from USCCB-NAB.

so my friend take verse 6 into consideration for faith comes by hearing. remember i don’t hate you, i love you and my intent is to speak of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

I never thought you did. I don’t think that verse 6 changes anything about my point, nor do the notes from the bishops council site of the NAB.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

You know if people didn’t change the bible so many rotton times mabe we’d all be on the same page. but you got these people that believe anything that comes along and then argue with you about something they should know is wrong,What the heck is wrong with people??? And he can BLOT YOUR NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE people that believe other wise are looking for excuses to sin.Bring it on Cow boy! Nancy I’m new at this but you arnt goiing to scare me off and how s this YOU CAN LOOSE YOUR SALVATION how much do you think GOD will permit before he drops a boulder on your head??? Think.

 

[wlychan64]

Regarding hatred of Protestants towards Catholics
I have found many Hate websites on the internet which include the words “Danger”, “Satan”, “Babylon” etc with reference to the Catholic Church. I have also experienced it personally - in fact I did not realise how much there was until I converted to the Catholic Church from the CofE (British MP Ann Widdecombe, also a convert, expressed this feeling too on the TV programme “A History of Christianity”). Sometimes this is due to a misunderstanding of Catholic practices, and sometimes it is down to basic labelling of different sectors of society (eg that which divides people in Ireland and Scotland, which has little to do with faith). But it has to be said that there are also many more out there who do not hate Catholicism at all, and are as keen on Christian unity as is the Catholic Church.

Regarding Scripture and its Interpretation

Dei Verbum is profitable reading for accurate understanding of Church teaching on Scripture and its interpretation - available online from the Vatican website –
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html or just type Dei Verbum in your search engine!

Note in particular (underlining is mine):-

1. Re: should interpretation of scripture be literal/literalistic?
   Chapter III para 12 – “However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.” …….therefore the intended meaning of the writer in the time it was written is fundamental to understanding what God wishes to reveal.
2. Re: Do you think that new church doctrine would qualify as a revelation?
   Chapter I para 4 – “The Christian dispensation, therefore, as the new and definitive covenant, will never pass away and we now await no further new public revelation before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ (see 1 Tim. 6:14 and Tit. 2:13).”
   …… therefore divine Revelation is complete, other than Christ’s second coming (note the term “public revelation”, as opposed to personal revelations such as that received by St Faustina etc)
3. Re: who can interpret scripture?
   Chapter II para 10 – “the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed”
   ……There is much in this chapter, and should be read in its entirety. That the Catholic Church claims sole authority is hotly debated by non Catholics, and I do understand why. Although DV states the divine origin of its authority, it is nevertheless necessary anyway. Interpretation can vary so much from person to person, and this is obvious in the sometimes huge differences found in interpretations of different denominations. With such differences, how can there be any unity in faith? In fact it is such individual interpretation that has lead to some groups not even believing in the divinity of Christ (eg. Jehovah’s Witnesses). This is not to say that the Church is never open to discussion on interpretation.
4. Also note the importance of sacred Tradition (another area contested by non Catholics)
   Chapter II para 8 – “Therefore the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15), and to fight in defence of the faith handed on once and for all (see Jude 1:3). Now what was handed on by the Apostles includes everything which contributes toward the holiness of life and increase in faith of the peoples of God; and so the Church, in her teaching, life and worship, perpetuates and hands on to all generations all that she herself is, all that she believes”
   …Read the whole chapter for best understanding. Scripture records what the early Church held as tradition. Tradition is an authentic interpreter of scripture. The two are inextricably interlinked and one does not replace the other.

Although not understood or accepted by many non Catholics, Catholic teaching, rituals and practices are all firmly rooted in scripture.

Dear Sir/madam,

Thank you. Very convincing message indeed. In fact, I always read the British News and I note that there are many converts including Blair, your former MP.

Recentely, I note that there is a book named ‘why I am still a Catholic’ which is a collection of articles written by some icons including Cherrie Blair. I am sure there are many good reasons why many people convert from the Church of England to the Roman Catholic Church.

Are you aware of the fact that the Church of England may unite with the Roman Catholic Church soon? Is it feasible?

Best wishes
wlychan64

 

[DavidCatechumen]

You know if people didn’t change the bible so many rotton times mabe we’d all be on the same page.

After the canon of Scripture (list of books of the Bible) was defined by the Catholic Church (the ONLY Church then) in 367 A.D., it did not change until Martin Luther broke from the Church in 1517 A.D. and threw out the secondary canon of the Old Testament. Thankfully his peers stopped him before he could throw out Revelation and the Gospel of John.

Another problem is that there are so many English translations of the Bible. Though a translation by definition is not supposed to change anything, many translations use “dynamic equivalence” and paraphrasing. Formal equivalence is safer–translations like the RSV (multi-denominational) and NAB (explicitly Catholic) are more faithful to the original Hebrew and Greek texts. The NIV in particular is not entirely faithful, as it deletes references to bishops and calls baptism symbolic in 1 Peter 3:21.

but you got these people that believe anything that comes along and then argue with you about something they should know is wrong,What the heck is wrong with people???

Well, everyone here is trying to understand the truth and seek it out with charity.

St. Peter told us to be educated and prepared to give an account of our faith at any time. That is what is called Catholic Christian apologetics. 1 Peter 3:15. If we (including you) are doing what the Bible (and first Pope) commanded then there is nothing wrong with us.

And he can BLOT YOUR NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE people that believe other wise are looking for excuses to sin

I guess the Protestant reformers who censored the Bible and wanted to get rid of the book of Revelation missed that part.

YOU CAN LOOSE YOUR SALVATION how much do you think GOD will permit before he drops a boulder on your head???

Most Protestants believe the “OSAS” or “Once Saved, Always Saved” soteriology (theory of salvation). Just say the Sinner’s Prayer once, and it doesn’t matter how much you sin, you’re going to Heaven anyway.

Catholics and Orthodox have never believed this, and neither do you by your statement, which is good because it’s not biblical.

With that said, remember that God does not punish anyone under the New Covenant. God does not damn anyone to hell. People do that to themselves by not seeking out and loving His Son.

.Bring it on Cow boy! Nancy I’m new at this but you arnt goiing to scare me off and how s this Think.

The only one trying to scare you is the devil. Fear is his weapon. If he is making you afraid it is because he knows you are drawing closer to God.

 

[DavidCatechumen]

Are you aware of the fact that the Church of England may unite with the Roman Catholic Church soon? Is it feasible?

I am a Yankee (from the USA) but I am aware of some things going on across the pond.

The Traditional Anglican Communion, which broke from the CofE some time ago, is very close to union with the Roman Catholic Church. As for the CofE itself, it is unlikely to ever reunite with Rome because it accepts women as priests and bishops (among other things far beyond the scope of this topic!)

 

[wlychan64]

I am a Yankee (from the USA) but I am aware of some things going on across the pond.

The Traditional Anglican Communion, which broke from the CofE some time ago, is very close to union with the Roman Catholic Church. As for the CofE itself, it is unlikely to ever reunite with Rome because it accepts women as priests and bishops (among other things far beyond the scope of this topic!)

Thank you for the message and the article referred.

wlychan64

 

[JosieElaine]

Ok. Before this faith/works thing gets outta hand, let’s make it clear what the real debate is. The debate isn’t about faith alone, nor works alone. It’s not even about where the faith and works come from. It’s about free will and repentence.

Let’s begin…

It’s Grace alone that does the actual saving. Christ’s atoning death made it sufficient for everyone.

But sufficiency is not the same as efficiency…which is to say we have our part in God’s plan. We must cooperate…we must make an ascent of our will.

This comes in 2 parts…belief and obedience.

Belief, or faith, is itself also a gift from God, through grace.

We could go on discussing this forever and get nowhere .
I believe what the Bible says and I believe nothing else .
You believe what the Bible says also , but you believe what the Church has added to it for the past 2000 or so years .
This is the main point where we part ways , not faith and grace .

Likewise, obedience is a gift from God, through grace. We learn through grace the good works God has prepared for us beforehand.

Now here’s where we start to differ. Catholics learn that faith is a virtue we must consistently nurture, through grace (sacraments), lest we fall from it. Likewise, we must consistently cooperate, through our free will, with these revealed acts of charity, mercy, etc. and at the same time, turn from sin, and/or confess and repent of sin as it occurs throughout our lives. Again, strengthening our gift of faith, through grace (sacraments) allows us to remain successful in our good works (obedience), in our examination of conscience, and hence, in our contrite repentence of sins.

Many non-Catholics learn that faith is a one-time event, which is why many of them have the date memorized when they “gave their life to Christ”, because there is no need for future proclamations of faith (although many do continue to nurture it and re-commit in faith). Further, cooperation with revealed good acts is automatic, else they were not genuine in their original proclamation of faith. They believe the will is automatically and permanently aligned to do good works. If there is recognized sin in their lives, this gets tricky. They must ascertain whether or not the sin is of enough graveness to warrant a reconsideration of their original proclamation of faith, whether it was genuine, or if the sin was nominal enough to not worry about, since they are once saved, always saved. This approach to salvation not only promotes easy believism, but also is self-refuting of OSAS, for if you cannot assure yourselves in the here and now that in the future, a sin you commit may reveal the lack of genuine faith in your heart, you therefore cannot have absolute assurance of your salvation, only perhaps a moral assurance, such as Catholics have.

God Bless

I do not want to discuss this issue anymore .
The point where we really differ is not faith and grace
It is that I believe only what is written in the Bible .
You also believe what is written in the Bible .
But you also believe what the Church adds to it .
And this I do not .
I am secure in my faith .
Nothing and nobody will ever snatch me from the Lord’s hand .
The life He gave me when I believed is Eternal .
Eternal means Eternal .
May God bless you too.
JosieElaine

 

[Jerry_Marino]

i love you josie

 

[JosieElaine]

i love you josie

I love you , too .
And the Lord loves us both.
Shalom !

 

[SteveGC]

I do not want to discuss this issue anymore .
The point where we really differ is not faith and grace
It is that I believe only what is written in the Bible .
You also believe what is written in the Bible .
But you also believe what the Church adds to it .
And this I do not .
I am secure in my faith .
Nothing and nobody will ever snatch me from the Lord’s hand .
The life He gave me when I believed is Eternal .
Eternal means Eternal .
May God bless you too.
JosieElaine

First of all, no one here is trying to snatch you from God. On the contrary, we want to make sure you don’t ever jump out of His grasp, which I don’t presume you’d ever want to do, but which you certainly have free will to do.

I’ll let you in on a little secret. I don’t believe everything that’s written in the Bible, just because it’s written in the Bible. And neither do you. No one does.

That’s because none of us first learned anything of salvific import from our personal, solitary reading of the good Book. We first got taught by humans. All of us. So, in essence, we both believe what various humans have taught us, and we have faith that the written words in the Bible mean what these humans have taught us. Think back on your own Christian formation, and you’ll realize this is true.

So, the question isn’t about adding anything to the Bible, it’s about what humans are the ones “SENT” by Christ to teach us, since that’s how we receive the wisdom that encompasses our Christian faith, supplemented by inspired Scripture.

If you want to believe that God grants you eternal life the moment you profess your faith, that’s your prerogative, but it is not biblical, and more importantly, it is not what the long line of ordained successors of the apostles taught us about salvation. We don’t deny that God certainly has the POWER to do this for you, but it is not His Plan. What he CAN do, and what He has set in motion TO do, are frequently two different things.

God be with you, and grant you eternal security.

p.s. In your post you added words within the quote of my previous post, which gives the appearance that I said them. Perhaps you can take care to ensure that what you say is distinct from what I say. Thanks.

 

[Contarini]

Dear Sir/madam,

Thank you. Very convincing message indeed. In fact, I always read the British News and I note that there are many converts including Blair, your former MP.

Recentely, I note that there is a book named ‘why I am still a Catholic’ which is a collection of articles written by some icons including Cherrie Blair. I am sure there are many good reasons why many people convert from the Church of England to the Roman Catholic Church.

Are you aware of the fact that the Church of England may unite with the Roman Catholic Church soon? Is it feasible?

Unfortunately it probably isn’t.

Edwin

 

[qui_est_ce]

p.s. In your post you added words within the quote of my previous post, which gives the appearance that I said them. Perhaps you can take care to ensure that what you say is distinct from what I say. Thanks.

I caught that too, I think Josie needs to explain herself.

 

[SteveGC]

I caught that too, I think Josie needs to explain herself.

Well, I’ll grant her the mistake, as it appears she’s new to the ins-and-outs of posting format

Nice to “see” you again, btw

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Unfortunately it probably isn’t.

Edwin

Edwin,

Anything is possible with Christ.

God bless

 

[JosieElaine]

First of all, no one here is trying to snatch you from God. On the contrary, we want to make sure you don’t ever jump out of His grasp, which I don’t presume you’d ever want to do, but which you certainly have free will to do.

I’ll let you in on a little secret. I don’t believe everything that’s written in the Bible, just because it’s written in the Bible. And neither do you. No one does.

That’s because none of us first learned anything of salvific import from our personal, solitary reading of the good Book. We first got taught by humans. All of us. So, in essence, we both believe what various humans have taught us, and we have faith that the written words in the Bible mean what these humans have taught us. Think back on your own Christian formation, and you’ll realize this is true.

So, the question isn’t about adding anything to the Bible, it’s about what humans are the ones “SENT” by Christ to teach us, since that’s how we receive the wisdom that encompasses our Christian faith, supplemented by inspired Scripture.

If you want to believe that God grants you eternal life the moment you profess your faith, that’s your prerogative, but it is not biblical, and more importantly, it is not what the long line of ordained successors of the apostles taught us about salvation. We don’t deny that God certainly has the POWER to do this for you, but it is not His Plan. What he CAN do, and what He has set in motion TO do, are frequently two different things.

God be with you, and grant you eternal security.

p.s. In your post you added words within the quote of my previous post, which gives the appearance that I said them. Perhaps you can take care to ensure that what you say is distinct from what I say. Thanks.

From JosieElaine :

I do not understand what you mean by your P.S . If I did something wrong , I apologize . It was unintentional . Maybe there is something I do not understand about the formatting of my answers …
We are back to the same issue . I do not believe there are such people are biblical successors to the Apostles …Back to the Bible again !
A year ago today , God snatched me from the kingdom of Darkness into which I was born and had been living for 65 years . He transported me into His kingdom of Light . Between the two kingdoms is a chasm . I cannot go back . I can sin , yes , but I was already forgiven forever at Calvary by the once-and-for all times Death of my Saviour . When I call on His Blood , I am kept forever His . His Spirit speaks to my spirit and tells me so , through the reading and meditating on his Word . So there is no common ground on which we can discuss . We get back to the same issue always : Word of God or Word of God plus words of the church .
May the Lord bless you again .
JosieElaine

 

[grannymh]

I do not want to discuss this issue anymore .
The point where we really differ is not faith and grace
It is that I believe only what is written in the Bible .
You also believe what is written in the Bible .
But you also believe what the Church adds to it .
And this I do not .
I am secure in my faith .
Nothing and nobody will ever snatch me from the Lord’s hand .
The life He gave me when I believed is Eternal .
Eternal means Eternal .
May God bless you too.
JosieElaine

The point where we are together is that all of us are walking with our face toward God.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.

 

[grannymh]

From JosieElaine :

I do not understand what you mean by your P.S . If I did something wrong , I apologize . It was unintentional . Maybe there is something I do not understand about the formatting of my answers …
May the Lord bless you again .
JosieElaine

Would someone please help JosieElaine and granny?

I’m not sure how to explain what I do. I preview my post and if the quotes don’t look right, I play around with the icon on top which looks like the voice “box” in a cartoon. It is to the immediate left of the hash or number mark # Putting the pointer on it will say "Wrap

tags around selected text."

I start highlighting the text, click the Wrap thing at the top and bottom of the highlighted material and test it all in Preview Post which is a box at bottom of screen. If I pick up the wrong text or the text from a previous post then I start deleting the

things. And start over.

O.K. you guys ---- I hear you laughing

Close your mouths and please give us some instructions.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Would someone please help JosieElaine and granny?

The below was not Steve’s original post:
We could go on discussing this forever and get nowhere .
I believe what the Bible says and I believe nothing else .
You believe what the Bible says also , but you believe what the Church has added to it for the past 2000 or so years .

O.K. you guys ---- I hear you laughing

Close your mouths and please give us some instructions.

You quote somebody by hitting the “quote” button. Hint the " button if you want multiple quotes.

Each quote must begin with quote= ] and end with / quote ] I put spaces so you can read the formatting. The same format applies to color, italics, bold, etc. they all begin with ] and end with / ] (sans spaces) I usually copy and paste the original poster quote= ] when I want to break apart and answer the post line by line.