Do Religious People Really Believe in Their Religion?

[JDaniel]

You see, I like you, too. You are a very nice person, and I feel sorry for your sadness. Just go back to the exchange you replied to. Charlemagne asserted most forcefully that on my deathbed I will be concerned about God. He presented this as an absolute, inevitable fact of how things will unfold. I find these assertions ironic. As I replied, I am already past my “first and second deathbed”, and I was not thinking about God. Yes, there are atheists in the foxholes.

As a matter of fact, I strongly believe that the way I conducted my life is the way how God wanted me to conduct it - with the exception of not having worshipped God. But, you see, I believe that God (if he existed) is far above us. He cannot possibly be concerned with our “adoration”. What a demeaning and disrespectful idea, that the Almighty Creator of All Things would care about our “worshipping”. If that is not unjustifed “pride”, than I don’t know what is - and you guys assert that atheists are what they are out of “pride”. That God has nothing better to do than “sneak” into our bedroom as a disgusting Peeping Tom, and judge if two people express their love toward each other in a “prescribed or proscribed fashion”. There is nothing I could say which would be more disrespectful toward God, than you, believers say. You say that God is “offended” by my lack of belief? Come on.

I recall one of the funniest Calvin and Hobbes cartoon, where Hobbes says: “The strongest sign that there are other intelligent beings in the Universe is that they never came to visit us!”. I like to paraphrase this: “The strongest evidence against God’s existence is that fact that he never came down and kick the living daylight out of the believers who spread such ridiculous nonsense about him”. And, this, my friend is how the cookie crumbles. Don’t be sad on my behalf. I am confident that God would embrace me for what I am, and how I conducted my life. If he existed, that is. Which is just too bad, if he does not. I would like to believe that there is an afterflife, but I see no evidence for it. And “wishful thinking” is just not my cup of tea.

And God might say, standing before you, "RD, must I, your Creator, stand before each and everyone of you and answer to each and every one of your grievances, all multi-billions of you, instead of doing it at one time? I sent my Son. I allowed you to torture Him. I allowed you to belittle Him. I allowed you to kill Him, to nail Him to a Cross and make Him wonder if I had forsaken Him. You are one of billions, whom I have created. In due time, you will have your answers. In the mean time, stop complaining, stop moaning, stop supplicating me for your personal, singular benefit.

Are you happy that I pulled you back from the grave? If so, have patience. Consider what I put Jesus through. Your life as a walk is a piece of cake."

Now, I am not Him. I can only presume. BTW, I was on the Death bed, too.

God bless you,
jd

 

[MerryCatholic]

If I believed that this present life were just a brief test to determine whether I would be admitted after death to another life of eternal bliss, it is inconceivable to me that I would ever commit a sin, since it would simply be foolish. Yet I hear Christians all the time say that they were ‘weak’ or ‘tempted’ on a given occasion to sin, and so did so, thus jeopardizing their own rational best interest in enjoying infinite bliss for the sake of a brief moment of trivial indiscretion. But since sane people are never tempted to bend down and touch the third rail of a subway because they are tempted by a piece of candy they spot lying there, I would assume that no sane Christian would ever be tempted to sin. Since they so often do sin, however, demonstrates that they don’t really believe in the doctrine they profess.

Similarly, if I believed that my present life were just a brief test prior to a possibly infinite afterlife of heavenly bliss, nothing that goes wrong here could ever seriously bother me. If we were all at a giant garden party given by God, and he imposed a forfeit on someone and made him blind for the duration of the party prior to admission to Heaven at the end of the afternoon, that blindness would be no more distressing than being ‘it’ for a little while in a schoolyard game of tag. So the fact that Christians wail in despair when some serious but mundane tragedy ruins only this life for them makes me again suspect that they don’t really believe what they profess.

I do imagine that Christians seriously think that they believe, but this is only because they have never seriously examined the incongruities of their behavior in the situations I have sketched above.

well consider the Scripture that says this, we all sin and we all fall short of the glory of God. also consider this, we are imperfect human beings. if we were sin free, then why did Jesus die on the cross? there is not one human being, you included that has not sinned on this earth. we have all sinned as the scripture says. i for one have sinned a lot in my life. mortal and venial. yet my sins were forgiven. and because Christ died for me, and for all of us, i have the hope of eternal life. i have His word for it. that for me is more than enough. the scripture also says, that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that we might not perish but have everlasting life. if we did not sin, why would God give His only begotten Son? we are saved by Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross.
Christ did not come to save the righteous, He came to save sinners. all of us. Jesus said to Saint Faustina, the greater the sinner, the more right he has to God’s mercy. why would He say that if we were not sinners? why would we need God’s mercy? we wouldn’t if we were sin free. furthermore, if man were totally sin free, why would Christ have to die in the first place? yes, we sinners believe in God. we love Him heart, mind, and soul. with everything we are we love Him who is above all things. oh yes, we believe. indeed we do.
we also have the Sacrament of Reconciliation to confess our sins. we are clean when we walk out. while we endeavour not to sin again, it does happen. some of the holy saints were great sinners before they came to know Jesus Christ. yet there they are beholding Him in heaven in all His glory. if i could live a life free of sin i would. i endeavour not to sin, but it happens. i try my best to be the absolute best Christian i can be. i love God more than my own life believe me! when God calls me and asks me, do you love Me? i can honestly say, Jesus, i have never stopped nor will i ever stop loving You! My Lord, and my God!

 

[R_Daneel]

Whatever, the fact remains that you went from belief to non-belief which constitutes a rejection of a previously held position (God exists). therefore you have rejected God.

I rejected the belief, which was held by me as a default position, due to my semi-religious upbringing. Maybe you think that it also means that I rejected “God”, but that is just semantics.

Except that your lack of belief, you renial of Him, blinds you to the “evidence” that he gives us.

I don’t think that you meant this to be insulting, so I will not take it as such. But it sure is boring to hear that atheists are “blind” or stubborn or too proud, or did not wait long enough… etc… and these assertions keep on coming back. I like, however, that you put the word evidence into quotes - which means to me that you do not speak of objective evidence.

Not at all, even if God were not to exist, my time spent on spiritual matters are beneficial to myself personally and, hopefully, make me a better citizen in society.

One does not need to worship God to be a good member of society. This is another recurring insult. But maybe you did not mean it to be insulting. One can only hope…

As to “wasting time”, it is no more wasted than a person who loves to read and discuss novels and/or movies.

Well, at least those books and movies exist. Do you think that people who would be spending their life worshipping some “false” God also spend their time fruitfully when they worship?

 

[R_Daneel]

And God might say, standing before you, "RD, must I, your Creator, stand before each and everyone of you and answer to each and every one of your grievances, all multi-billions of you, instead of doing it at one time?

Why not? Do you really think that God does not have the time to talk to each individual on a personal basis? Is he too busy peeking into our bedrooms?

I sent my Son. I allowed you to torture Him. I allowed you to belittle Him. I allowed you to kill Him, to nail Him to a Cross and make Him wonder if I had forsaken Him. You are one of billions, whom I have created.

Well, my take on this is a bit different. I see absolutely no reason for the whole process. How come that God could not have pardoned our transgressions without all that “charade”? And to be truthful, a little 3-day trip to hell and temporary death is no big deal compared to an eternal damnation.

In due time, you will have your answers. In the mean time, stop complaining, stop moaning, stop supplicating me for your personal, singular benefit.

Why not? Is it a “burden” for God to come and have a friendly fireside chat? “In due time”? You guys keep saying me that when the “due” time will come, it will be much too late. When the full information becomes available, there is no more “Mr Nice Guy”. There is no more “oops, let me repent”. There will be no explanation, only judgment.

Are you happy that I pulled you back from the grave? If so, have patience. Consider what I put Jesus through. Your life as a walk is a piece of cake."

The doctors pulled me back. And the paramedics did it first.

Now, I am not Him. I can only presume.

It is fine. I am doing the same thing. And I believe that my “surmises” are closer to the truth (if God exists, of course). You see, in this post you depicted God as an impatient “big boss”, who does not take time and effort (not that he needs it) to talk to the ones, who wish to talk to him. Who might ask a few questions. A loving Father would not be so aloof, would not lock his door and never open it for the children who might long for his presence. Do you see now why I said that the most serious arguments against God come from the apologists?

BTW, I was on the Death bed, too.

I am glad you made it.

 

[JRKH]

I rejected the belief, which was held by me as a default position, due to my semi-religious upbringing. Maybe you think that it also means that I rejected “God”, but that is just semantics.

As you wish…

I don’t think that you meant this to be insulting, so I will not take it as such. But it sure is boring to hear that atheists are “blind” or stubborn or too proud, or did not wait long enough… etc… and these assertions keep on coming back. I like, however, that you put the word evidence into quotes - which means to me that you do not speak of objective evidence.

It is never my intent (well almost never) to be insulting and my comments were not meant as such to you, just as I assume your comments comparing faith in God to the tooth fairy or flying spagetti monster were not intended to be insulting.
Becoming insulted and defensive only hinders conversation, don’t you agree?

One does not need to worship God to be a good member of society. This is another recurring insult. But maybe you did not mean it to be insulting. One can only hope…

I never said that one HAD to worship God in order ot be a good member of society. I only said that my worship fo God DOES help me to be a better member of society.

Well, at least those books and movies exist.

Yes those books and movies do exist, but the characters in them don’t. The Bible (a book) also exists. Though wehter it is fiction is something we sould disagree on…

Do you think that people who would be spending their life worshipping some “false” God also spend their time fruitfully when they worship?

There are two issues, or viewpoints to consider here. The temporal and the salvic. From a purely temporal view, time a person spends worshiping (a loving creater) God is not wasted so long as it makes them a better person. It is beneficial to them, and to society, in emotional and physical terms. Just as a person who reads a book that has good moral lessons can use those lessons to become a better person.

Naturally, IF the person is worshiping a “false” god then there can be no fruit in any salvic sense and can even have detrimental effects on society from those who worship gods of the underworld. (gods of evil).

Those who worship the Christian God, a “Creator” God, a God of Love, a God of Building up, not tearing down, are most definitely NOT wasting their time.

Peace
James

 

[Charlemagne_II]

R Daneel

*Moreover, the punishment is not just a “smack”, it is eternal damnation. Does not look like a “loving” parent to me. *

You seem keyed in on punishment, to the exclusion of reward. Our religion is a two-way street. Yes, hell is in the offing. So is heaven. Christ died for our sins. That makes him a God to transcend all gods. “No greater love has a man than to die for his friends.” Then he practiced what he preached. Doesn’t sound like the monster you make Him out to be.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JDaniel
And God might say, standing before you, "RD, must I, your Creator, stand before each and everyone of you and answer to each and every one of your grievances, all multi-billions of you, instead of doing it at one time?

I beleive that not only can he, but he does speak to us individually. The question is whether we are listening.
I know that my parents tried to explain many things to me while I was growing up, some I heard, but many I did not. Or at least I did nto integrate them until much later. I also remember times when they resorted to the old, “because I said so”, cliche.

My point being that, even with the “one on one” help of loving parents, I still went out and disobeyed them, made mistakes, hurt myself and otehr people, and had to learn “The Hard Way”…
To an extent we all have to do that. Some learn earlier, some later, others never do learn…
May your journey lead you back to God…

Peace
James

 

[JDaniel]

Why not? Do you really think that God does not have the time to talk to each individual on a personal basis? Is he too busy peeking into our bedrooms?

RD: We’re not talking about “time.” You really have a puffed-up opinion of yourself. Your final sentence is not worthy of you and not worthy of my time to draft an answer. (Which would be short, probably curt, anyway!)

Well, my take on this is a bit different. I see absolutely no reason for the whole process. How come that God could not have pardoned our transgressions without all that “charade”? And to be truthful, a little 3-day trip to hell and temporary death is no big deal compared to an eternal damnation.

If you had been with him, as co-god, you might have been able to mention that to Him. It is not a “charade.” It is the outcome of granting us Free Will. Of course, I know you have a problem with that, too. (You could have done it better.)

Why not? Is it a “burden” for God to come and have a friendly fireside chat? “In due time”? You guys keep saying me that when the “due” time will come, it will be much too late. When the full information becomes available, there is no more “Mr Nice Guy”. There is no more “oops, let me repent”. There will be no explanation, only judgment.

I don’t want the “chat.” So, for all of us who take Him at face-value, I guess He can just seat us off to the right or the left, until its our turn to b*tch about something. BTW, I’m not “you guys.” I’m “JDaniel,” or, “jd,” as you are “RDaneel,” or’ “RD.” You lump me into company far too good for the likes of me, when you do that!

The doctors pulled me back. And the paramedics did it first.

Yes, and in my past, I, as an ambulance driver in Miami, did the same thing. Though I did not re-cast myself as anything more than just me - I hope!

It is fine. I am doing the same thing. And I believe that my “surmises” are closer to the truth (if God exists, of course).

I don’t fully believe you are. But, I guess, we’ll see.

You see, in this post you depicted God as an impatient “big boss”, who does not take time and effort (not that he needs it) to talk to the ones, who wish to talk to him. Who might ask a few questions.

No I did not, RD. I will not accept that mis-characterization of my God from you.

A loving Father would not be so aloof,

I AM a loving father. Ask my kids if I’ve been aloof. I have been an employer, too. Each employee requires as much as each of one’s kids do, except for an extraordinary few. I couldn’t, and will not, lead each one of them meticulously through every daily garden at exquisite whim.

Do you see now why I said that the most serious arguments against God come from the apologists?

I knew it all along. but, you are still wrong. :banghead:

I am glad you made it.

Thank you. Dittos.

God bless,
jd

 

[R_Daneel]

It is never my intent (well almost never) to be insulting and my comments were not meant as such to you, just as I assume your comments comparing faith in God to the tooth fairy or flying spagetti monster were not intended to be insulting.
Becoming insulted and defensive only hinders conversation, don’t you agree?

I agree very strongly.

Yes those books and movies do exist, but the characters in them don’t. The Bible (a book) also exists. Though wehter it is fiction is something we sould disagree on…

Yes, indeed. We do disagree on that.

There are two issues, or viewpoints to consider here. The temporal and the salvic. From a purely temporal view, time a person spends worshiping (a loving creater) God is not wasted so long as it makes them a better person. It is beneficial to them, and to society, in emotional and physical terms. Just as a person who reads a book that has good moral lessons can use those lessons to become a better person.

Naturally, IF the person is worshiping a “false” god then there can be no fruit in any salvic sense and can even have detrimental effects on society from those who worship gods of the underworld. (gods of evil).

Those who worship the Christian God, a “Creator” God, a God of Love, a God of Building up, not tearing down, are most definitely NOT wasting their time.

I don’t doubt that worshipping God can help one to become a better person. We also agreed that it is not necessary in order to be become a better person. So in this respect it is a stalemate - whether one worships or not, does not matter. Now, from the “salvic” standpoint, if one worships a nonexistent deity, then the time spent on this act is definitely wasted. That is all I wanted to say.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

You neglected the other part. If we are just toddlers, below the age of reason, then we cannot be held responsible for our actions. No, a toddler does not know the difference between right and wrong, or that obedience is “must”. And the toddlers need to be taken care of. Also, the toddlers need to be reminded frequently and periodically about the commands… None of these happen. Moreover, the punishment is not just a “smack”, it is eternal damnation. Does not look like a “loving” parent to me.

This is why I said that God’s worst enemies are the apologists. Instead of being logical about it, all I see is “excuses” and “cop outs”.

Punishment being more than a smack? Do you imagine we are sent to Hell for a single transgression?

That is why we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation. It is written that God wills not the death of any sinner. We get many, many chances here on earth to ‘make amends.’

Those who again and again deliberately turn away must face the consequences of their actions, just as those who jump off a ten-story building.

 

[JRKH]

I don’t doubt that worshipping God can help one to become a better person. We also agreed that it is not necessary in order to be become a better person. So in this respect it is a stalemate - whether one worships or not, does not matter. Now, from the “salvic” standpoint, if one worships a nonexistent deity, then the time spent on this act is definitely wasted. That is all I wanted to say.

Even in this I would have to say that the time is not wasted.
If the deity does not exist then all that remains is the temporal, and we already agree that such worship can lead one to being a better person, so there is benefit and time is not wasted. At death the result is the same as as one who did not worship. - So - Time not wasted
If the deity does exist and promises happines in heaven for those who love Him, then at death the believer achieves much - So - Time not wasted.

You see, you assume that time spent in worship achieves nothing, but I repeatedly demonstrate that time spent is worship DOES achieve something, even if it is only temporal.
The only time that “worship” achieves noting is when it is false worship. Those who “show up” but never seek to integrate God into their lives. False worship is no worship at all.

Peace
James

 

[R_Daneel]

RD: We’re not talking about “time.”

Well, why not? To strip it down to basics, we are talking about the lack of communication. Allegedly the line of communication was closed down about 2000 years ago. This supposed communication is only recorded in a book choke-full of errors and scientific nonsense. That book was not even written by eye-witnesses, moreover, the authors of the parts of it are unknown. That is all you can point to as a material evidence. Many people doubt it, and I think that doubt is more than justified.

If you had been with him, as co-god, you might have been able to mention that to Him. It is not a “charade.”

Well, if and when I will have an opportunity, I certainly will. Because as a loving parent I am sure you would forgive your children’s “trespasses” without a need to “beat yourself up” (I present this as an analogy).

It is the outcome of granting us Free Will. Of course, I know you have a problem with that, too.

You bet, I do. I can prove mathematically (not just assert) that it is possible to build a world with full of “free will” and without one instance of “sin” - where each free agent knowingly and willingly avoids sin, without one iota of force. Actually free will is instrumental to do it. A long time ago I already did it, on this board, and I never got a valid counter-argument. All I got was a bunch of “but that is utopia!”… or “you just described heaven”, and stuff like that.

No I did not, RD. I will not accept that mis-characterization of my God from you.

Don’t shoot the messanger. I cannot help if this is exactly what I hear. You see, I sometimes present the same problem with a slight change in the way it is presented, and guess, what? The posters will vehemently argue the exact opposite than they argued before!

I AM a loving father. Ask my kids if I’ve been aloof. I have been an employer, too. Each employee requires as much as each of one’s kids do, except for an extraordinary few. I couldn’t, and will not, lead each one of them meticulously through every daily garden at exquisite whim.

But you don’t have “infinite” time and patience. And I bet, you did do the proper explanation when it was necessary. And I would also bet, that you did explain it more than once, when you saw that your child is still in the dark (so to speak).

 

[Auburn88]

If I believed that this present life were just a brief test to determine whether I would be admitted after death to another life of eternal bliss, it is inconceivable to me that I would ever commit a sin, since it would simply be foolish. Yet I hear Christians all the time say that they were ‘weak’ or ‘tempted’ on a given occasion to sin, and so did so, thus jeopardizing their own rational best interest in enjoying infinite bliss for the sake of a brief moment of trivial indiscretion. But since sane people are never tempted to bend down and touch the third rail of a subway because they are tempted by a piece of candy they spot lying there, I would assume that no sane Christian would ever be tempted to sin. Since they so often do sin, however, demonstrates that they don’t really believe in the doctrine they profess.

Two different things. We have a sinful nature that causes us to sin, while we have also have a self-preservation instinct that causes us not to reach down and touch the third rail.

I do imagine that Christians seriously think that they believe, but this is only because they have never seriously examined the incongruities of their behavior in the situations I have sketched above.

Or it could be that you just have no idea what Christianity teaches.

 

[R_Daneel]

Punishment being more than a smack? Do you imagine we are sent to Hell for a single transgression?

Yes, at least according to some of the posters around here. Quite a few of them asserted that being an atheist, (not loving God) is a mortal sin. An atheist is unable to ask for forgiveness - at least not seriously.

I wish you would have persented your argument by taking into consideration the whole post I wrote. The context is very important here.

 

[R_Daneel]

You see, you assume that time spent in worship achieves nothing, but I repeatedly demonstrate that time spent is worship DOES achieve something, even if it is only temporal.

But we agreed that the same gain can be achieved without a worship. So the worship part is not necessary. And is something is not necessary…

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Yes, at least according to some of the posters around here. Quite a few of them asserted that being an atheist, (not loving God) is a mortal sin. An atheist is unable to ask for forgiveness - at least not seriously.

I wish you would have persented your argument by taking into consideration the whole post I wrote. The context is very important here.

If you claim to be able to prove what you say you can mathematically, it will take someone far wiser than me to do so.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

R Daneel

Yes, at least according to some of the posters around here. Quite a few of them asserted that being an atheist, (not loving God) is a mortal sin. An atheist is unable to ask for forgiveness - at least not seriously.

I never heard that stated by a Catholic. I don’t think you did either. An atheist can be saved, but not if he dies an atheist. You don’t get to change your mind after you’re dead. Having chosen never to desire to be in God’s presence, your choice is granted. You have no legitimate beef after you are dead.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Uh-oh. Sounds pretty omninous. But, you see, I do not reject God, I reject that the concept of God is a meaningful idea. I do not believe that God exists.

In your other post you explicity say that "When a person knows that they are sinning… ". But that is not applicable to atheists. I don’t “know” that I am sinning, because I reject the concept of sin. Furthermore, the Catholic Church asserts that no can speculate if any one is going to hell. So your speculation about the atheists all are hellbound is contradicted by the Church’s teaching. But, of course the Catholic Church also teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church, so can choose, which of the two “infallible” and contradictory teachings you happen to accept in any given moment. Ain’t it wonderful that the Church gives you two contradictory teachings, so you could argue both ways? All you need is a little “doublethink”.

The perceived contradiction is:

1. We can’t speculate on whether a person goes to hell.
2. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

That’s not a contradiction. It is indeed possible that an atheist will be saved – but if so, they will be saved through Jesus Christ, which is to say, the Catholic Church.

A note of clarification on #1 above. You’re right that we don’t know who is in hell, but that is not the same as saying that we shouldn’t point out when people are committing serious sins. If you believe in God, and are rejecting him for some reason, that is a very serious sin, which would put your salvation in jeopardy.

 

[R_Daneel]

The perceived contradiction is:

1. We can’t speculate on whether a person goes to hell.
2. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

That’s not a contradiction. It is indeed possible that an atheist will be saved – but if so, they will be saved through Jesus Christ, which is to say, the Catholic Church.

But you DO speculate here. You speculate that an atheist, who does not convert to Catholicism, WILL go to hell. Now how could an atheist convert, if he does not believe that God exists? It cannot be a “real” conversion. The atheist may say the necessary words, but without inner conviction they are just empty words. And God is supposedly smart enough to know the difference. You also speculate that other Christians (non-Catholics) will also go to hell, since they do not belong to the Catholic Church.

A note of clarification on #1 above. You’re right that we don’t know who is in hell, but that is not the same as saying that we shouldn’t point out when people are committing serious sins. If you believe in God, and are rejecting him for some reason, that is a very serious sin, which would put your salvation in jeopardy.

That only applies to believers. It says nothing about who do not believe in God in the first place.

 

[Seeker2010]

An atheist can be saved, but not if he dies an atheist. You don’t get to change your mind after you’re dead.

Here is where I part company. For I do not think a truly loving, just God will damn someone to eternal torture for having made the wrong decision, especially when the decision is less than fully informed. We mere mortals do not even enforce such things upon each other.

Now, you may argue that we are fully informed. This book, that catechism, whatever. The fact remains that there are many competing religions, all claiming that they are the one and only truth, and all claiming that anyone who fails to believe will be punished. Even amongst adherents of what is ostensibly the same religion, you would tell someone that the use of condoms for birth control, even between husband and wife, is a mortal sin that will result in eternal damnation, whereas there are other Christian sects who teach otherwise. You can’t both be right.

It is not unreasonable for a person to look at the available options and find that none is suitable. Until and unless there is quantifiable evidence that one religion is true and the others are not (for, at best, one religion is true, at worst (and IMO, the reality) none are), none of us are making a fully informed decision. You have determined that Christianity, and more specifically, Catholicism is correct. What do you think will happen if you find yourself face to face with Allah after your death?