Do Religious People Really Believe in Their Religion?

[rwillenborg]

If I believed that this present life were just a brief test to determine whether I would be admitted after death to another life of eternal bliss, it is inconceivable to me that I would ever commit a sin, since it would simply be foolish. Yet I hear Christians all the time say that they were ‘weak’ or ‘tempted’ on a given occasion to sin, and so did so, thus jeopardizing their own rational best interest in enjoying infinite bliss for the sake of a brief moment of trivial indiscretion. But since sane people are never tempted to bend down and touch the third rail of a subway because they are tempted by a piece of candy they spot lying there, I would assume that no sane Christian would ever be tempted to sin. Since they so often do sin, however, demonstrates that they don’t really believe in the doctrine they profess.

Similarly, if I believed that my present life were just a brief test prior to a possibly infinite afterlife of heavenly bliss, nothing that goes wrong here could ever seriously bother me. If we were all at a giant garden party given by God, and he imposed a forfeit on someone and made him blind for the duration of the party prior to admission to Heaven at the end of the afternoon, that blindness would be no more distressing than being ‘it’ for a little while in a schoolyard game of tag. So the fact that Christians wail in despair when some serious but mundane tragedy ruins only this life for them makes me again suspect that they don’t really believe what they profess.

I do imagine that Christians seriously think that they believe, but this is only because they have never seriously examined the incongruities of their behavior in the situations I have sketched above.

You are correct, such behavior is not rational. neither It is also irrational for me to eat chocolate cake for desert, knowing that I am trying to lose weight. Neither was it rational for my brother to cheat on his wife, and, as a direct result, lose not only his wife, but his children and his house. Neither was it rational for an employee at my work place to steal an item worth $99 and lose his 80K per year job. Neither was it rational for me to stay out so late on Saturday night, knowing I had to be up at 5 am on Sunday.
Indeed, I believe that every action I described above was just as irrational as the sin you cited above. I guess I’d be shocked if people DIDN’T act this way. Wy would you expect people to apply one set of rules to one section of their lives and not the others? People do stupid things. All the time. In every part of their lives. I actually think it’s not as a result of examining the incongruities of their behavior, but I think there is definitely alot of rationalization that goes on. At least, there is for me.

 

[R_Daneel]

You haven’t been a father have you?
As I said earlier: I’ll bet you haven’t been a father.

Yes, I am a father of a very good and successful 37 years old “little” boy, who is taller than I am and I am very proud of him. He also made me a very happy grandfather. And I just love my new “job” of taking care of the little bugger whenever I have the opportunity. So, sorry, you happened to lose this bet. You owe me a beer if and when we meet. (Just make sure it is a good Pilsner Urquell).

Seems to me I read that but was not assured by the premises. Would you mind pointing to the thread, whenever you get a chance.

My goodness. It was so very long ago. I cannot even remember the title, and most probably I wrote it under a different pen-name. But I will try.

 

[R_Daneel]

OK. I am about to leave for a nice 6-days long vacation to celebrate our 30th anniversary. So please do not think I am neglecting this thread and your (name removed by moderator)ut. See you next week…

 

[Moonstruck888]

There only one Truth. This is the person of Jesus Christ. Getting to know Him will reveal all of the rules to you.

Knowing that something is seriously wrong, whether you agree, or not, counts as “full knowledge”.

Frankly, this kind of overplayed hand always fuels a certain cynical skepticism in me. I have always suspected that deep down everyone knows that we’re worm food when we die. I’ve always suspected that people who make the loudest and most fervent proclamations do so because of their own doubts.

 

[Windfish]

Frankly, this kind of overplayed hand always fuels a certain cynical skepticism in me. I have always suspected that deep down everyone knows that we’re worm food when we die. I’ve always suspected that people who make the loudest and most fervent proclamations do so because of their own doubts.

Incidentally, I have always suspected that, deep down, everyone knows God is real.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Incidentally, I have always suspected that, deep down, everyone knows God is real.

Looks like we have an impasse then.

 

[davidv]

Frankly, this kind of overplayed hand always fuels a certain cynical skepticism in me.

How is it “overplayed”? Please explain yourself.

I have always suspected that deep down everyone knows that we’re worm food when we die.

Please don’t speak for others. Even if my body ends up as worm food, that is not the end.

I’ve always suspected that people who make the loudest and most fervent proclamations do so because of their own doubts.

What your evidence for such a condescending assertion?

What is wrong with doubt? Do you ever doubt? Christians have to deal with doubt just as much as a non-christian.

 

[JRKH]

OK. I am about to leave for a nice 6-days long vacation to celebrate our 30th anniversary. So please do not think I am neglecting this thread and your (name removed by moderator)ut. See you next week…

Congrats on your anniversary. Have fun and be safe.

Peace
James

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Seeker

Not to mention, have I not seen it written here that to be culpable for a sin one must have FULL KNOWLEDGE that it is a sin? Does believing God does not exist (or that he is of a different nature than Catholicism teaches) not imply a lack of full knowledge of the consequences of said belief if it’s a sincere, if ill founded belief?

If you have visited Catholic Answers, atheist or not, you know it is a sin, if God does exist, that you totally disavow any relationship with him. You can hardly be at Catholic Answers for three minutes without finding out that. Moreover, the attraction to God is universal and goes back to the dawn of history because God planted the desire to worship in our hearts. It is the Devil who tells us otherwise.

Atheists have no way to be certain there is no God. So if there is a God, and the atheist spits in His face with disbelief, the atheist doesn’t get a free pass just because he has conned himself into being an atheist.

Moonstruck

*I have always suspected that deep down everyone knows that we’re worm food when we die. *

Yes indeed, our bodies are worm food. Our souls will last longer than the visible universe.

Engraved on a tombstone in Massachusetts:

Here lies that atheist so-and-so;
all dressed up and nowhere to go.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

According to my understanding of Catholic doctrine, the faith doesn’t reject the possibility of invisible ignorance. Which is reasonable of course. If God permits evil, it is not unreasonable to think that in some circumstance God permits ignorance of his existence. We cannot determine that an atheist would not react in a positive manner once they had seen God after death. Take suicide for instance. It is not necessarily true that all people who commit suicide go to hell. It depends on the intentions of their heart. Similar, it depends on the intention of the atheist and why they reject God. If they are dishonest self deceiving creatures who were merely looking for an excuse to avoid a Christian life of serving love above all else including themselves, then they will not be deserving of the love that is heaven; and they will not be able to participate in it spiritually because in truth they reject the Christian idea of love in their hearts, and in its place they worship a faulty self serving counterfeit of love. They love themselves above all else. But we cannot be certain that all atheists can be put into that category. And what about people of other religions?

I think that very intelligent atheists, like Richard Dawkins, have less of an excuse, because they are capable of reasoning to God, but prefer to promote deceptive caricatures and straw-men instead, and they hide behind a false sense of science in order to avoid critical self reflection.

However, deceptions can be very strong, and people who are otherwise very intelligent can be enslaved to beliefs that are not of their own making. For example, the idea that all “native Americans” are in hell simply because they were ignorant of Christianity, is ridiculous. God judges the intentions of the heart, not the head.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1203&CFID=49766363&CFTOKEN=64799965

Potentially, ignorance can diminish or remove imputability for any kind of sin. However, no one is presumed to be ignorant of the principles of moral law since these are written on the heart of every man (CCC 1860). It is possible for a person to be invincibly ignorant that an act is required by natural law. This may be true if the act involves a point that is not obvious, if the person is not mentally quick enough to discern the application of natural law to the case, or if he has been raised to strongly believe in a system that denies the point of natural law. However, such ignorance must be proven, not presumed.

*…Like any other grave sins, if they are committed with adequate knowledge and deliberate consent, they become mortal sins and will deprive one of salvation… *

A person who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ through no fault of his own (or, by extension, through his merely venial fault) can be saved—if he otherwise does what is required for salvation, according to the level of opportunity, enlightenment, and grace God gives him (CCC 847, 1260).

 

[JDaniel]

OK. I am about to leave for a nice 6-days long vacation to celebrate our 30th anniversary. So please do not think I am neglecting this thread and your (name removed by moderator)ut. See you next week…

Enjoy yourselves; and, please, stay safe!

God bless,
jd

 

[JRKH]

Boy-o-boy this thread has certainly gotten of topic…
and I take full credit for wallowing in the foray…

But to get back to SD,s original premise, I think that the linked article below about the **man on the tightrope with a wheelbarrow ** speaks very clearly to his point.
It’s easy to talk about how much we believe, but how many of us would ACTUALLY get in the wheelbarrow?

These are good things to ponder.

Peace
James

 

[JDaniel]

Yes, I am a father of a very good and successful 37 years old “little” boy, who is taller than I am and I am very proud of him. He also made me a very happy grandfather. And I just love my new “job” of taking care of the little bugger whenever I have the opportunity. So, sorry, you happened to lose this bet. You owe me a beer if and when we meet. (Just make sure it is a good Pilsner Urquell).

I’ll bet! You should have had more kids. You would have obtained a whole new appreciation for the word, “aloof!” I have four grandchildren. I get to spend lots of time with the youngest. A beautiful three yo little girl. BTW, I can afford a beer, I think!!.

Urquel is good, although might I suggest a nice, Trappist ale, or good Stout?

My goodness. It was so very long ago. I cannot even remember the title, and most probably I wrote it under a different pen-name. But I will try.

Well, don’t rush. (As if I had to tell you that!) I’ll be here when you return.

God bless you,
jd

 

[Seeker2010]

If you have visited Catholic Answers, atheist or not, you know it is a sin, if God does exist, that you totally disavow any relationship with him.

I am not an atheist, insofar as I believe there is a supernatural creator, God if you will, though I’m decidedly undecided on the Jesus story (myth?), and ascribe to no particular religion. That said, I would point out that it’s quite literally impossible to disavow a relationship with an entity that you do not believe exists, if you lack of belief is true. There is a difference between ‘I believe there is no God’ and ‘I disavow God’. The latter requires belief.

Personally, I cannot fathom that a truly loving God would punish someone for examining their surroundings and deciding they truly believed there is no supernatural.

I know Christians like the phrase ‘What Would Jesus Do’. Do you suppose that, if he was real and was what the Church claims, that he would look upon a fallen soul and say ‘My Son, you studied things and concluded that I wasn’t real. I am therefore going to torture you for all of eternity. Off you go!’

Or would it be more like: ‘My child, it doesn’t matter whether you believed in me or not, for I believed in you! Welcome!’?

I’d bet my life (perhaps I am) that it would be the latter.

This I DO know: Anyone who claims they truly understand God is lying to themselves, the rest of us, or both. Personally, I don’t think we’re CAPABLE of truly understanding him even if he literally gave us a powerpoint presentation explaining it.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Personally, I cannot fathom that a truly loving God would punish someone for examining their surroundings and deciding they truly believed there is no supernatural.

…

This I DO know: Anyone who claims they truly understand God is lying to themselves, the rest of us, or both. Personally, I don’t think we’re CAPABLE of truly understanding him even if he literally gave us a powerpoint presentation explaining it.

I also can’t fathom the proposition, but like you say, there is very little of God that we can fathom. Having said that, it certainly seems unjust to damn someone for misjudging two thousand year old history.

The question is, to what extent are atheists making honest mistakes as opposed to willfully disavowing a God that they do in fact believe in? No one really knows but the atheist and God. I will say that back in my atheist days, there were a number of times when I felt the reality of God, but chose to write it off as imagination or wishful thinking or something. If I had died in that state of disavowal, I could not make a claim of injustice if God let that choice stand.

 

[nickybr38]

Did the disciples believe?

And yet one of their own got out on the water and halfway he still doubted. If not for the outstretched hand of Christ he might have drowned.

To sin means to miss the mark. As we are not perfect we WILL miss the mark, even if we believe. Some of us have doubts, some of us don’t. None of us are perfect.

This world is a stormy place to be and even though we are walking on the water towards Christ sometimes we get distracted. Sometimes the rush of the wind frightens us and our foot slips into the water. Sometimes the crash of the waves seem too much and we slip into the water. Sometimes although Christ is RIGHT THERE, we lose sight of him because of the lightning but He is still there… and just when we’re about to sink He reaches out and pulls us back up.

The disciples believed. But even they missed the mark. How can we be expected to be any different? How can we be expected to be more then men who walked with God?

The goal is to hit bulls eyes every time, but you have to miss the mark quite a bit before practice pays off.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Seeker

*Personally, I cannot fathom that a truly loving God would punish someone for examining their surroundings and deciding they truly believed there is no supernatural. *

Well, here is the problem.

Atheism is a form of self deception … lying to oneself that there is no God. The atheist can insist that he is being honest, but he is not. He therefore not only rejects God, but also rejects being truthful with himself. And then he consoles himself with the thought that if there is a God, he cannot be held to account for his sins. Why? Because he does not believe in God or in sin, in heaven or in hell. Also, he does not believe in asking God’s forgiveness for his sins. So apparently he can sin all day and all night all the days of his life and still get to heaven without confessing his sins and asking God’s forgiveness?

Anyone who believes that should never, but never, buy a used car.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Oh, they don’t say anything of that kind. But what they say about God boils down to that. One has to read between the lines.

Actually, I don’t see myself or any other humans as “lowly beings”. Christians do, when they compare humans to God. As for going on without a belief in some afterlife, that is very easy. Apart from the “worshipping” part, I am pretty sure we conduct our lives very similarly. We both love our families and friends, we both enjoy good food, music, and life in general. I know that death is inevitable, but I am not really concerned about it. Death and paying taxes are impossible to avoid, but at least they are mutually exclusive, as far as we know today. What I want to do is leave good memories behind me when I will go.

If you did read between the lines, you might find out otherwise.

Your life is not your own. It was given to you by your Creator. This is a tough concept for someone like me and I’m still settling into the idea.

I have to say that I have never personally met a happy atheist - in real life or online.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Back to the original topic.

Were Adam and Eve religious? Apparently. They heard God give the single commandment they were to obey. They obeyed it, they believe in it … for a time. Then the snake got to them. And they believed the snake’s lies more than they believed God’s truth. One might say they still believed in God, but their God had come to look like a reptile. Just as the atheist fools himself that there is no God, Adam and Eve fooled themselves into thinking Satan’s word was truer than God’s. When they found out who the real liar was, they likely as not were sorry they had been so easily taken for the fools they were.

Are Adam and Eve in heaven now? How are we to know? But it’s unlikely they died atheists. One thing above all they should have learned: God is God, and there is no other.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Back to the original topic.

Were Adam and Eve religious? Apparently. They heard God give the single commandment they were to obey. They obeyed it, they believe in it … for a time. Then the snake got to them. And they believed the snake’s lies more than they believed God’s truth. One might say they still believed in God, but their God had come to look like a reptile. Just as the atheist fools himself that there is no God, Adam and Eve fooled themselves into thinking Satan’s word was truer than God’s. When they found out who the real liar was, they likely as not were sorry they had been so easily taken for the fools they were.

Are Adam and Eve in heaven now? How are we to know? But it’s unlikely they died atheists. One thing above all they should have learned: God is God, and there is no other.

Yes, they’re in Heaven. I don’t remember where I heard it, but I believe the Catholic Church declared them Saints.