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What other good reason is there ? To be good for reasons one knows to be selfish is base & despicable.
**The argument from authority is out of place here - if it is all-important, then God could as readily command us to hate one another as to love another. Good is to be chosen because it is good & because good is good, whether there is a God or not; & a God Who comands evil is no God at all, but the devil of hell himself. **
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PRmerger
Guest
That’s an interesting concept. If God commanded me to hate someone would I do it because I believe in the utter omniscience and authority of God? Well, certainly it’s a non-sensical question as God cannot command evil, as you suggest.
However, I guess if God commands me to do something that I don’t understand, I think I would still do it. Just as Christ commanded his apostles to “eat my flesh” and “drink my blood”, which was abhorrent to the Jews. But, if God said to do it, they did it!
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MegaTherion
Guest
If you claim that your god would not command an evil action, then you must have a concept of good and evil that is separate from your god.
If good and evil are concepts that are separate from your god, a person could rationally figure out what is good on his own and effectively ignore your god.
[please note that I don’t actually believe in any gods – including yours – I’m granting the assumption that your god exists for the sake of argument]
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed. That has already been established in this thread.
Certainly an atheist can be a moral person. That is, good can be rationally determined without knowing God.
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Ender
Guest
That’s an interesting thought but I believe it misses the point of the objection. We have a concept of good and evil based on our understanding of God’s laws. If God commanded us to perform an evil action it would be understood as evil in light of our existing conception of morality. That is, believing that God has taught that X is sinful, if God were then to command us to do X he would be commanding us to something sinful - based on our prior understanding of his law, not on a concept of morality separate from his will.
If there is no god - ours or anyone else’s - then I cannot see how morality itself can exist. If god is a human invention then so is the concept of good and evil and a human being could no more commit sins than could any other animal.
Ender
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buffalo
Guest
Everything you know you have received from someone else. Your current morals too.
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GraceDK
Guest
Be good for goodness sake.
Amen to that…
Translation: Be loving for the sake of Love.
Love… God is love… He is the one who enables us to love. When we love our neighbour in true, holy, selfgiving, honest, pure, selfless love, we do in in the power of His love. Even the atheist’s love is made possible by the fact that God has loved him into existence and God continually blesses him.
One may eventually ask how the atheist defines “good”.
In my secualar atheistic culture atheists say that “christianity is bad”, “condoms are good”, “abortion is good”, “casual sex is freedom and good”…
So whose definition of GOOD and BAD will you choose to follow in your life?
Be good for goodness’ sake, but which good, and for the sake of which goodness…
Complicated? welcome to a postmodern world of pluralism and relativism.
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Dameedna
Guest
When an athiest say’s that, they are not trying to debate for the sake of an objective vs relative moral code.
What they are saying is, do the correct thing by another, because you put correct behaviour and goodness 1st.
If you are ONLY doing something for a reward, then you are doing it primarily for YOURself, instead of for the SAKE of something else…IE goodness.
It’s like when a person is nice to you. Are they being nice because they want you to like them? or are they being nice, because as a matter of principle they believe being a nice person is of great importance and they make sure they adhere to this principle.
This of course leads one down the obvious path, do you do what is “correct” in life, because you want a reward in heaven? Or do you do what is correct in life, because YOU don’t want to be punished? Do you do what is correct in life because you want to please God?
All of these are fundamentally self-serving behaviours.
Or…do you simply put goodness as a higher power in your life, give into it , follow it…regardless of what benefits it may bring you.
Now as to the objective vs relative moral code, as far as I’m concerned all we have are claims of moral truth, not “THE” moral truth and everyones so called moral truth, is relative moral code to who they are.
Lots of religions(and people) claim there needs to be ONE set of rules, and of course the rules are those of their religion. They have the truth and they know the rules and becaue they claim these come from God, they are an objective moral code and not just a personal one. However,they are not being forced to follow their religion, so at the end of the day EVERYONE is making up their own mind, as to which set of rules they will follow. Christian rules, muslim rules, buddhist rules?
This to me means, that even if there is an absolute truth of some kind, a person claiming they have it for whatever reason is probably wrong. Hence I don’t put a lot of emphasis on what some other individual claims is moral behaviour. If I did, I wouldn’t question every religion out there and every religious claim. IE why would I question the bali bombing? They had the truth, god revealed himself and they were simply following Gods moral laws.
Claims to truth are meaningless to the athiest, unless they can be verified.IE you claiming you have an absolute moral code that comes from God, is nothing more than…YOU(or the humans who have made up your church) claiming you have an absolute moral code that comes from God.
What they are saying is, do the correct thing by another, because you put correct behaviour and goodness 1st.
If you are ONLY doing something for a reward, then you are doing it primarily for YOURself, instead of for the SAKE of something else…IE goodness.
It’s like when a person is nice to you. Are they being nice because they want you to like them? or are they being nice, because as a matter of principle they believe being a nice person is of great importance and they make sure they adhere to this principle.
This of course leads one down the obvious path, do you do what is “correct” in life, because you want a reward in heaven? Or do you do what is correct in life, because YOU don’t want to be punished? Do you do what is correct in life because you want to please God?
All of these are fundamentally self-serving behaviours.
Or…do you simply put goodness as a higher power in your life, give into it , follow it…regardless of what benefits it may bring you.
Now as to the objective vs relative moral code, as far as I’m concerned all we have are claims of moral truth, not “THE” moral truth and everyones so called moral truth, is relative moral code to who they are.
Lots of religions(and people) claim there needs to be ONE set of rules, and of course the rules are those of their religion. They have the truth and they know the rules and becaue they claim these come from God, they are an objective moral code and not just a personal one. However,they are not being forced to follow their religion, so at the end of the day EVERYONE is making up their own mind, as to which set of rules they will follow. Christian rules, muslim rules, buddhist rules?
This to me means, that even if there is an absolute truth of some kind, a person claiming they have it for whatever reason is probably wrong. Hence I don’t put a lot of emphasis on what some other individual claims is moral behaviour. If I did, I wouldn’t question every religion out there and every religious claim. IE why would I question the bali bombing? They had the truth, god revealed himself and they were simply following Gods moral laws.
Claims to truth are meaningless to the athiest, unless they can be verified.IE you claiming you have an absolute moral code that comes from God, is nothing more than…YOU(or the humans who have made up your church) claiming you have an absolute moral code that comes from God.
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Dameedna
Guest
Well said.
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Dameedna
Guest
Good and “evil” are quite possibly human inventions.
But I don’t think that right or wrong are necessarily human inventions but a by product of evolutionary forces. They tend to follow down the path of what is best for our survival as a whole and for the individual.
But just as a belief in God, can lead people down a path of wrong doing, so can a belief in natural morality.
For me, we simply do not know what is necessarily good or not. We never have. What we do have, is a striving to improve ourselves and for the last 100,000 years since we walked out of africa this is what we have done. We have done it through trial and error and attempted to learn from our mistakes. The hardest part is recognizing, we may in fact be making a mistake.
Every time I make a choice, I recognize that I will never know for sure that what I am doing is correct, or even if there is some ultimate correct behaviour.
But I try, because I would rather live on a decent planet, around kind people where we do not have to live in fear of each other so attempting to be good, is for me a good goal. EVEN if I will never know for sure, what is or is not fundamentally good.
No-one, no matter what they claim will ever KNOW for sure that what they believe, support and follow is good. And I wish more people realized that. If they did, they’d think a bit more about what they support and what they do. It is believing that we are alway’s correct, it is the belief that we are absolutely right that gets us in trouble, as it leads to ideological fanatisicm which is inherantly dangerous.
That goes for both believers and non-believers alike.
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PRmerger
Guest
Since you are posting on a Catholic forum, I’m going to assume that you believe that this is why Catholics strive to “be good”–in order to enter heaven and avoid hell. Just to clarify–Catholicism does not teach that by being good you will go to heaven.
Ironically, you seem to be proposing something here as morally true. Yet, it’s only your moral truth, that is, if you’re a relativist. What this really is is simply your opinion. You’re merely stating a preference, such as, “I like pink.” That’s nice, but why should we care? Or are you trying to convince us to like pink, too? If so, that’s a futile and silly venture.
Yes, but only one set of “rules” is the True set.
Again, this has as much moral weight as your opinion. You seem to be trying to make a statement of truth, but it contradicts your previous statement.
Are you trying to convince us that your statement is true?
Can you verify this?
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MegaTherion
Guest
This is incorrect. Allow me to quote something I wrote on another thread:
Most atheists appeal to reason as the source of moral judgments. In any given situation, it is possible to look at the spectrum of actions available to us and decide which of those actions are more likely to produce positive results and which are less likely. Remember, since this life is the only one that we are all certain that we will have, it’s in everyone’s best interest to build the best possible society in the here and now.
As social animals, humans have a natural drive to work together (we see similar behavior in many species), and through an application of reason guided by this natural empathy, we can behave in an ethical manner towards one another to build the kind of world we would all like to live in.
Note: I personally define “positive results” as “results that are in accord with the natures of all parties involved and that do not unnecessarily violate the free will of anyone or cause unnecessary harm to any party.”
In other words, moral imperatives emerge from conditions and situations. We don’t “get them” from anywhere – they emerge from our experience and can often be generalized into rules.
Now there’s an interesting upshot of all of this. Based on what I’ve written above, I would consider slavery to be morally wrong, absolutely. And yet the Bible features several passages in which the Judeo-Christian god endorses slavery. Thoughts? Am I more moral than your god?
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buffalo
Guest
Again, whatever you know came from someone before you.
You need a better understanding of what Biblical slavery actually was. DO some research.
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grannymh
Guest
My sincere apology to the Atheists and Agnostics I have met. It is not my intention to insult your values with this post.
However, relativism is damaging society. All of us need to face the reality of what happens when absolute truth is absent… Start with life at conception and continue through the economic crisis, identity thief, and random shootings…
There was a time in my memory when humanism was respected for its values. But the holiday ad campaign of the American Humanist Association looks like a stealth attack on Christians. Readers of the following websites can make their own evaluations.
My suggestion is to read between the lines, around the bottom of the page and toward the end of the following news releases, speeches, and especially the fact sheets found on these web sites. Check the list of related organizations.
www.americanhumanist.org www.whybelieveinagod.org
www.whybelieveinagod.org/pressrelease.html
www.whybelieveinagod.org/whatis.html
www.whybelieveinagod.org/didyouknow.html
Then think…
Blessings,
grannymh
However, relativism is damaging society. All of us need to face the reality of what happens when absolute truth is absent… Start with life at conception and continue through the economic crisis, identity thief, and random shootings…
There was a time in my memory when humanism was respected for its values. But the holiday ad campaign of the American Humanist Association looks like a stealth attack on Christians. Readers of the following websites can make their own evaluations.
My suggestion is to read between the lines, around the bottom of the page and toward the end of the following news releases, speeches, and especially the fact sheets found on these web sites. Check the list of related organizations.
www.americanhumanist.org www.whybelieveinagod.org
www.whybelieveinagod.org/pressrelease.html
www.whybelieveinagod.org/whatis.html
www.whybelieveinagod.org/didyouknow.html
Then think…
Blessings,
grannymh
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Eucharisted
Guest
God is goodness itself. We love others for His sake. Love means to will the good of others, and to act accordingly. Hence, we do good for Goodness’ sake.
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PRmerger
Guest
Interesting. You seem to be suggesting that there is a universal moral code which defines this “world in which we all would like to live.” Can you define this world? What would this world look like? Would there be divorce? Universal health care? Open borders? Slavery? Polygamy? Who would decide that these concepts are ethical or not in your world guided by an “application of reason”.
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buffalo
Guest
FIrst we would have to get by the question - Why didn’t the first atheist kill the second?
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Nino
Guest
Not really,Goodness originated with ones Creator…it did not come from a vacuum! In all pagan nations ‘goodness’ is simply being PC viz:an obediant citizen. There are no ten commandments in a pagan land that compare with the real ones! Notice again the world Jesus entered into…women had no say in court or at home,the military controlled all actions by the citizens,a court of law was simple whomever had the most money and thus influence and those not of the village were considered foreigners…mmmmmm …does that all sound familiar. The citizens were treated to spectacular sports arenas events to keep their minds off of their plights,yelling and screaming at the athletes kept them satisfied a bit from yelling at the public officials…mmmmm…fancy words and phrases were uttered to calm the waters of discontent…mmmmmm…well…good nite Gracie
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Realcatholicgk
Guest
**
Hi Mega,**
If you claim that your god would not command an evil action, then you must have a concept of good and evil that is separate from your god.
How so?
If good and evil are concepts that are separate from your god, a person could rationally figure out what is good on his own and effectively ignore your god.
** I am sorry but as stated, this isn’t logical! It needs to be expanded upon to make sense. **
[please note that I don’t actually believe in any gods – including yours – I’m granting the assumption that your god exists for the sake of argument]
**
Oh, You believe in some god. It can’t be helped! No human can feel that they are the sum of everything. There is a creator! You may verbally deny it. But deep in your heart of heart beats the knowledge that God exists. If He didn’t, you couldn’t!
God is pure good. Evil is the absense of God. When someone does a good thing they are following God. When they do evil they are following Satan!
There is a very old saying : “God doesn’t mind if you don’t believe in Him. But, you should pray and thank Him for believing in You!” **
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OnlyAmbrose
Guest
MegaTherion - I recommend C.S. Lewis’ book Mere Christianity, he hashes out this topic well and coherently 
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