Do we as Catholics worship Mary

[rinnie]

I don’t know if anyone actually reads these, but I had a while to chew on this subject last night. I knew that what I did as a Christian, as a Catholic, was wholly in the right. It is my firm conviction. But I kept thinking to myself again and again, “Are there words? Or does one simply have to experience this whole thing for one’s self?”

Last night, I screwed up bigtime–as I so often do. I as a Protestant made the mistake of thinking that I needed to give God some “cool down” time before I ran to him. Not because I felt like I couldn’t go to him, but because I felt like it was hypocritical to sin knowing God’s love is endless and he’d just take me back anyway. That’s the definition of taking advantage of someone. But I, perfectionist as I am, am working on accepting grace fully.

Last night, I knelt down, and I began crying–not for “Catholic guilt,” as they say, but because I was truly sorry for my repeated offense. I… wanted forgiveness but also a desire to stop. As I knelt and cried, I suddenly realized I was praying. “Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry…” My eyes closed, I did what I do so often: I saw myself, a little child, blood covering my hands, and Mother Mary holding me her white robes all messied by my hands. But she didn’t care… She just rocked me and wiped my tears, and smiled, saying, “Do not be afraid”, again and again. Then she set me down, took me by the hand and led me to Christ. He knelt down, eyes overflowing, just picked me up, and held me so I could hear his Heart’s beat, while our Mother just stood to his side and smiled.

I was still praying, I realized all of a sudden. “Our Father, who art in heaven…” Jesus is anything but unapproachable in my mind. He endured the Cross out of love, not dutiful obligation. When I see him in my mind’s eye, imperfect image as it is, I see him smiling, gentle, ready to take his child into his arms. So why Mary, too, then? I guess, knowing that she IS my Mother, it’s natural to see myself in her arms. I love her. I’m sorry if that’s “wrong,” but I love her and have a relationship with her–however undeveloped. And when one realizes that she knows full well that our sins crucified her only son, that we caused his agony, and yet smiles that incredible, unbelievable smile and gently whispers, “I love you,” well, that’s God’s love shining through her. In her arms, I experience the love of Christ. True Love finds its source in God, and Mary radiates with the Father’s love and compassion. She shows it to us, helps us experience it. To see her is to see in a dazzling mirror God’s mercy. **What we love in Mary, we love for it finds its origins in God the Father. **Here on earth, we experience this to a degree. We see godly people who are filled with joy and compassion and see God in them and thus begin to love them back. If Mary really is the perfect disciple, the “handmaid of the Lord” who is constantly giving her Yes to God, then it’s natural to love her–we love love, and God IS love.

It’s more than “giving credit where credit is due.” It’s seeing what we as humans have to potential to be.

Christ is always shining brilliantly in our obedience, and to encounter his love in his saints, and in the Blessed Mother in particular, is just one way of experience him. We grow to love him for it, and appreciate our extended family. To love Mary all the more, is to love Christ in her all the more.

It’s never an either/or deal. Christ or Mary. **“Wherever there is goodness–wherever there is love–that is God.” We do not fear to love the godly here on earth for their christliness, do we? Neither do Catholics fear loving the saints in heaven for theirs. **

Hope this makes sense.

Peace

What a Beautiful experience. And yes it makes perfect sense. I wish everyone could understand this. This is what she is to a T. All i can say is the Holy Spirit sure took over this thread. Call me crazy, But Grace is sure getting through. thankyou

 

[jttierney1]

Thank you for responding.

I brought my concerns up on three separate occasions, several years apart with different priests and also some nuns at a school I attended, and then years later, as an adult, in another city and state with another priest. I received pretty much the same response, that it just doesn’t happen and that I had nothing to worry about, that I could never honor Mary enough.

After my third discussion, I thought maybe that what I was being told was “the party line”, and that perhaps they were instructed to respond that way.

After that third time, and several sessions with the pastor of that Church, I never really attended another Catholic church with regularity. Just sporadicly. This issue did have a great deal to do with my “falling away”.

When I see people here say that such things NEVER happen and that NO Catholic ever leaves over the Mary issue,and that anyone who says they did is lying, it hurts all over again.

I appreciate you creating a thread in which all voices can be heard.

Calliope

Calliope, it pains me to hear your story. That so many of our priests/nuns didn’t actually listen to what you said and got caught up in there own self-denial they failed you. (BTW, your candy bar analogy was perfect!)

I hope you don’t stay away from the church because of their ineptness.

 

[SIA]

Why do non-catholics think we Catholics worship Mary?

I don’t believe that you worship her but I do believe that Catholics spend far too much time and energy focusing upon Mary. Some of your hymns and prayers and Catechism language really shed light upon this. To refer to Mary as queen of Heaven, co- mediatrix and co-redemptrix is very troubling to me and many others. It was troubling to me the many many years that I was Catholic. What is Mary really? Mary was the mother of Jesus or even the mother of God in the flesh. She was without a doubt the greatest woman who ever lived. She was highly favoured by God as the angel Gabriel spoke. Mary had unwaivering faith and is the greatest of all the saints in Heaven without doubt. I love Mary as does Catholics and did Luther and many of the reformers but my main focus and all of my worship and faith is in Jesus Christ my savior. Even Mary stated that her joy was in God her savior.

 

[mlchance]

I don’t believe that you worship her but I do believe that Catholics spend far too much time and energy focusing upon Mary.

And I believe non-Catholics spend far too much time and energy focusing on Mary as well, but, of course, almost always in attack-the-Church mode. For me, given the choice between focusing time and energy motivated by love for her or focusing time and energy motivated by anti-Catholic animus, I’ll take the love.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Bert68]

Why do non-catholics think we Catholics worship Mary?

The reason why they think we worship Mary is because they don’t understand. They don’t understand because they don’t ask. They don’t ask because they’re afraid. They’re afraid because that’s how they were taught in the past.

Our past influences how we think about ourselves and about others.

Mary is the mother of God. She deserves to be venerated and loved.

 

[jfallaw]

I was raised Catholic, and I wasn’t sure we DIDN’T worship Mary! I knew it wasn’t part of the official church teaching, but in some areas and subcultures within Catholicism veneration of Mary can be pretty intense. Where I was raised, adoration of Mary was at least equal to, and for some greater than any attention showed to Christ. What I’m saying is that there is confusion even among Catholics.

What I saw, experienced and took part in, growing up, I thought we were worshipping Mary. It looked and felt like worship, even though we gave a different name to it, I could not discern any difference in what I was doing or feeling, it was the same (and in some cases less) than I did or felt for Jesus.

We visited shrines, prayed in front of traveling statues of her, participated in May crownings, had nuns come and teach us to make rosaries, were encouraged to join the Blue Army, sang litanies to her, brought flowers to her, made promises to her…etc.

Christ was the dead guy on the cross that we had to feel guilty about, but Mary was the one from whose hands gems of grace fell on us. Mary was the one crushing the serpents head. Mary was the one who came and spoke to children and healed people at her shrines, etc.

We were given glow in the dark statuettes of her to keep in our rooms (and glow in the dark rosaries), so that it was almost like we were having our own glowing visitation from her. She was emphasized by the church and the church school to a degree that I think many of us did think she was at least as important as Christ, and certainly more active in our daily lives. It made perfect sense to us to worship her, it was a natural response to the significance she was given. It had to be unlearned later, and was really confusing, because as a kid it was one of the more interesting and engaging parts of the faith.

I know it’s not cool to talk like that here, but I don’t think I’m the only person who was raised in Catholicism that had this type of experience.

Calliope

wow I totally know how you feel. My grandpa was very devout Catholic and had a strong devotion to Mary, but even he only had a small statue of her in his room, and his rosaries, of course. But my dad was very S. Baptist, so I was immersed in nothing but Jesus most of the time. Having grown up in the Southwest, I’ve seen what you describe ALOT. Oh but you forgot the Our Lady of Guadalupe Tshirt! Anyways, now that I have decided the Catholic church is the one Jesus gave us, I’m finding it kind of hard to accept all the Marian emphasis.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Why do non-catholics think we Catholics worship Mary?

Because Satan’s magnum opus is denial, defiance, and destruction of the Virgin.

Abandoning the mother is but one step from abandoning the son.

St. Bonaventure warned that those who neglected our Lady would perish in their sins and be damned.

Francis de Yepes, brother of St. John of the Cross was told by demons “Take off that habit which snatches so many souls from us. All those clothed in it die piously and escape us.”

Satan knows how powerful Mary’s intercession is, he does not want the Mother of God to fulfill the promise she made to St. Simon Stock “One day through the rosary and the scapular, I will save the world.”

-Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom the kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”

 

[Huguenot]

I was raised Catholic, and I wasn’t sure we DIDN’T worship Mary! I knew it wasn’t part of the official church teaching, but in some areas and subcultures within Catholicism veneration of Mary can be pretty intense. Where I was raised, adoration of Mary was at least equal to, and for some greater than any attention showed to Christ. What I’m saying is that there is confusion even among Catholics.

What I saw, experienced and took part in, growing up, I thought we were worshipping Mary. It looked and felt like worship, even though we gave a different name to it, I could not discern any difference in what I was doing or feeling, it was the same (and in some cases less) than I did or felt for Jesus.

We visited shrines, prayed in front of traveling statues of her, participated in May crownings, had nuns come and teach us to make rosaries, were encouraged to join the Blue Army, sang litanies to her, brought flowers to her, made promises to her…etc.

Christ was the dead guy on the cross that we had to feel guilty about, but Mary was the one from whose hands gems of grace fell on us. Mary was the one crushing the serpents head. Mary was the one who came and spoke to children and healed people at her shrines, etc.

We were given glow in the dark statuettes of her to keep in our rooms (and glow in the dark rosaries), so that it was almost like we were having our own glowing visitation from her. She was emphasized by the church and the church school to a degree that I think many of us did think she was at least as important as Christ, and certainly more active in our daily lives. It made perfect sense to us to worship her, it was a natural response to the significance she was given. It had to be unlearned later, and was really confusing, because as a kid it was one of the more interesting and engaging parts of the faith.

I know it’s not cool to talk like that here, but I don’t think I’m the only person who was raised in Catholicism that had this type of experience.

Calliope

That is precisely why some Protestants think that you worship Mary : what you describe pretty looks like it even if it is not conform to the official teaching of the Catholic Church about Mary ; you are right in speaking about “Catholic subcultures” ; this often happens in France for instance in Lourdes, it even shocked some Catholic friends who’ve been there …
The problem is that we react according to what we SEE : when some Catholic subcultures really do worship Mary or come close to it, a Catholic will know that it is not conform to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, but for us ( Protestants ) it will be more difficult to see it …

 

[justasking4]

Huguenot;3382496]
Originally Posted by Calliope
I was raised Catholic, and I wasn’t sure we DIDN’T worship Mary! I knew it wasn’t part of the official church teaching, but in some areas and subcultures within Catholicism veneration of Mary can be pretty intense. Where I was raised, adoration of Mary was at least equal to, and for some greater than any attention showed to Christ. What I’m saying is that there is confusion even among Catholics.

What I saw, experienced and took part in, growing up, I thought we were worshipping Mary. It looked and felt like worship, even though we gave a different name to it, I could not discern any difference in what I was doing or feeling, it was the same (and in some cases less) than I did or felt for Jesus.

We visited shrines, prayed in front of traveling statues of her, participated in May crownings, had nuns come and teach us to make rosaries, were encouraged to join the Blue Army, sang litanies to her, brought flowers to her, made promises to her…etc.

Christ was the dead guy on the cross that we had to feel guilty about, but Mary was the one from whose hands gems of grace fell on us. Mary was the one crushing the serpents head. Mary was the one who came and spoke to children and healed people at her shrines, etc.

We were given glow in the dark statuettes of her to keep in our rooms (and glow in the dark rosaries), so that it was almost like we were having our own glowing visitation from her. She was emphasized by the church and the church school to a degree that I think many of us did think she was at least as important as Christ, and certainly more active in our daily lives. It made perfect sense to us to worship her, it was a natural response to the significance she was given. It had to be unlearned later, and was really confusing, because as a kid it was one of the more interesting and engaging parts of the faith.

I know it’s not cool to talk like that here, but I don’t think I’m the only person who was raised in Catholicism that had this type of experience.

Calliope

Huguenot
That is precisely why some Protestants think that you worship Mary : what you describe pretty looks like it even if it is not conform to the official teaching of the Catholic Church about Mary ; you are right in speaking about “Catholic subcultures” ; this often happens in France for instance in Lourdes, it even shocked some Catholic friends who’ve been there …
The problem is that we react according to what we SEE : when some Catholic subcultures really do worship Mary or come close to it, a Catholic will know that it is not conform to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, but for us ( Protestants ) it will be more difficult to see it …

Couple of things to think about in regards to what Calliope says. These things flow out of the marian doctrines and evidently the church supports and believes these things also since it has never rebuked these things as far as i can tell.

 

[guanophore]

Couple of things to think about in regards to what Calliope says. These things flow out of the marian doctrines and evidently the church supports and believes these things also since it has never rebuked these things as far as i can tell.

The Catholic Church has official documents available world wide addressing these issues, the most popular being the Catechism. The church does not make it a practice to go into everyone’s home and rebuke them for not keeping the Teachings of the Church. I suppose, if she did these types of inquisitions, there would be a lot less so called cafeteria Catholics.

Judging the Church by the wayward behavior of some of the members is like judging the Teaching of Jesus by the behavior of Judas.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Couple of things to think about in regards to what Calliope says. These things flow out of the marian doctrines and evidently the church supports and believes these things also since it has never rebuked these things as far as i can tell.

guanophore
The Catholic Church has official documents available world wide addressing these issues, the most popular being the Catechism. The church does not make it a practice to go into everyone’s home and rebuke them for not keeping the Teachings of the Church. I suppose, if she did these types of inquisitions, there would be a lot less so called cafeteria Catholics.

Judging the Church by the wayward behavior of some of the members is like judging the Teaching of Jesus by the behavior of Judas.

What makes you think that these personal devotions are not right?

 

[guanophore]

What makes you think that these personal devotions are not right?

I find no fault with anyone’s personal devotions. Unlike yourself, I don’t find it my place to pull up the tares in God’s field.

It is not right to give worship to anyone but God. If there are people who have fallen into error by worshipping someone other than God, then they are not right.

Proper devotion to Mary is always centered on Christ. Mary eternally tells us “do whatever He tells you”. If someone’s devotions to Mary are not Christ centered, then they are out of order.

 

[SIA]

And I believe non-Catholics spend far too much time and energy focusing on Mary as well, but, of course, almost always in attack-the-Church mode. For me, given the choice between focusing time and energy motivated by love for her or focusing time and energy motivated by anti-Catholic animus, I’ll take the love.

– Mark L. Chance.

You did exactly the same thing that you accuse us of doing. You didn’t bother to read my whole post and respond to it. You only heard what you wanted to hear and lashed back in defense to something you were not totally informed of. We do not bash Mary in our church. We do not bash other churches either. We honor Mary but we also maintain a focused perspective of how our time should be spent.

 

[mlchance]

We do not bash Mary in our church.

Then, quite obviously, I wasn’t talking about you or your church.

We honor Mary but we also maintain a focused perspective of how our time should be spent.

As does the Church.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[AdoptedByGod]

Our prayers and worship must be to God alone (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Mary was incredibly blessed, but salvation and the Deity is over this way → God.

Think on Mary with fondness, but Jesus deserves ALL the glory

God Bless,

Andrew

 

[guanophore]

Our prayers and worship must be to God alone (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Mary was incredibly blessed, but salvation and the Deity is over this way → God.

Think on Mary with fondness, but Jesus deserves ALL the glory

God Bless,

Andrew

I agree that all glory comes from, and belongs to God. However, God is pleased to share His Glory with His own. Scripture speaks of this in many ways. In creation,God made His own glory present in the things that have been made, so that the creation would testify to Him:

40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory" 1 Cor 15:40-41

God made His own glory present in man, and made woman to reflect the glory of God in the man:

7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 1 Cor 11:7-8

God gave His glory to the Jews by way of His Divine Revelation:

4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:3-5

God is creating His own nature within us so that we perfectly reflect HIs glory:

2 Cor 3:17-18
18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."

God is also glorified in the community of believers:

"…the churches, the glory of Christ."2 Cor 8:23 “…For you are our glory and joy.” 1 Thess 2:20

The believers have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of glory.

“For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.” Heb 2:10

This Reformed notion of “God alone” is not consistent with God’s revelation to mankind, which includes mankind in His glory. It is fitting to honor those who have been taken up into glory, as God is glorified in his angels and saints. Whenever we fitly reflect His glory, He is magnified in us.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3390249]
Originally Posted by justasking4
What makes you think that these personal devotions are not right?

guanophore
I find no fault with anyone’s personal devotions. Unlike yourself, I don’t find it my place to pull up the tares in God’s field.

It is not right to give worship to anyone but God. If there are people who have fallen into error by worshipping someone other than God, then they are not right.

Proper devotion to Mary is always centered on Christ. Mary eternally tells us “do whatever He tells you”. If someone’s devotions to Mary are not Christ centered, then they are out of order.

What do you think of this below?

THE GLORIES OF MARY
by
St. Alphonsus de Liguori
Doctor of the Church

Vita, Dulcedo.
OUR LIFE, OUR SWEETNESS.
I.
MARY, OUR LIFE, OUR SWEETNESS.
Mary is our life, because she obtains for us the Pardon of our Sins.
To understand why the holy Church makes us call Mary our life, we must know, that as the soul gives life to the body, so does divine grace give life to the soul; for a soul without grace has the name of being alive but is in truth dead, as it was said of one in the Apocalypse, Thou hast the name of being alive, and thou art dead (“Nomen habes quod vivas, et mortuus es”—Apoc. iii. 1). Mary, then, in obtaining this grace for sinners by her intercession, thus restores them to life.

Do you think these kinds of statements would lead a catholic to worship Mary?

Notice to that this firmly support by the catholic church.

 

[mlchance]

Do you think these kinds of statements would lead a catholic to worship Mary?

Not any Catholic who pays attention to Church teaching, which is explicit and unequivocal that only God is to be worshipped.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Do you think these kinds of statements would lead a catholic to worship Mary?

mlchance
Not any Catholic who pays attention to Church teaching, which is explicit and unequivocal that only God is to be worshipped.

– Mark L. Chance.

Would it be wrong for someone to praise Mary since this church doctor says that “Mary is our life, because she obtains for us the Pardon of our Sins”?

 

[mlchance]

Would it be wrong for someone to praise Mary since this church doctor says that “Mary is our life, because she obtains for us the Pardon of our Sins”?

Who is the Pardon?

– Mark L. Chance.