T
tbcrawford
Guest
Totally agree
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J
JReducation
Guest
If I were looking for a wife and the woman that I’m looking at is very snarly toward her family, I would believe that there is something wrong with her or her family.
When a non-Catholic looks at a Catholic being snarly toward the hierarchy, priests, deacons, religious and other lay people, the impression is the same. There is either something wrong with the poster or with his Catholic family. Someone’s credibility is sacrificed. You either agree with the snarly poster that there is something terribly wrong in Catholicism and stay away from it or you believe there is something wrong with the poster and you stay away from him/her. In the latter case, the poster is no longer an effective evangelist, because his audience is staying away. The only ones who are staying with him are his opponents who want to debate him. How does that accomplish much?
One need not be a door mat to be hunble. Donuts are the most humble things I know. Have you ever seen a commercail for healthy donuts? No. Donuts tell the truth. They are delicious. We have to be good donuts and speak the truth without inflating ourselves.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
When a non-Catholic looks at a Catholic being snarly toward the hierarchy, priests, deacons, religious and other lay people, the impression is the same. There is either something wrong with the poster or with his Catholic family. Someone’s credibility is sacrificed. You either agree with the snarly poster that there is something terribly wrong in Catholicism and stay away from it or you believe there is something wrong with the poster and you stay away from him/her. In the latter case, the poster is no longer an effective evangelist, because his audience is staying away. The only ones who are staying with him are his opponents who want to debate him. How does that accomplish much?
One need not be a door mat to be hunble. Donuts are the most humble things I know. Have you ever seen a commercail for healthy donuts? No. Donuts tell the truth. They are delicious. We have to be good donuts and speak the truth without inflating ourselves.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
M
mmmcounts
Guest
I saw this quite a long time ago and I can’t remember exactly where, but it basically amounted to the creators of CAF pondering that same question in the course of creating this site. That option was definitely on the table, but they decided to do it this way because they thought it would be better. I can’t remember the exact reasoning behind it, but it’s out there somewhere if you ever run across it.
J
JReducation
Guest
I wouldn’t want to see either the Orthodox Christians or the Reformation Christians excluded from CA. The truth of the matter is that more often than not, it’s Catholic Christians who commit the greatest offenses against charity toward the Church, clergy, religious and other lay people. We must always remember that an unrestrained sense of entitlement can lead to great pride and a lack of charity.
This does not apply to the lay person reading this, but it may be useful. I always tell our brothers who are in formation that they are to remember that we must always be the least, not the greatest. St. Francis didn’t call his brothers the Lesser Brothers because he could not comde up with a more creative name. He had an idea in his mind.
When Jesus speaks of the final jugment, he refers to the “least of [his] brothers” They should be the beneficiaries of great charity. So Francis, who was an excellent exegete, understood that by being the least, one was also the beneficiary of charity.
Jesus also said that the “first shall be last and the last shall be first.” Again, Francis takes Jesus at his word and promote being last, among his sons and daughters. It was his hope that by becoming the last, we should be the first in the Kingdom of God.
Francis read the same message in the Beatitudes. The poor, humble and persecuted would be exulted. He encourages his brethren to take their place in that crowd.
Over the years, from 1209 when he founded the order to 1226 when he died, his theology evolved and it became known as a spirituality of kindness and nobility. Clare, her sisters, the brothers and the secular order became well known for their good manners. But their manners were not good, just because they were polite. Their manners were good because they were Evangelical. It was part of a greater effort to live according to the description on the Gospels of the simple and poor who are heirs to the Kingdom.
Even though most people on CAF are not bound by the rule and teachings of St. Francis, God gives us great saints to teach the entire Church, not just their religious family. In fact, the religious family is a model for all families and all communities, including the CAF family.
We have a very simple, but direct sentence in the Constitutions of the Franciscan Brothers of Life. “The brothers shall never engage in debates, disputes or conflicts for they cannot preach the Gospel of Life at the expense of the Gospel of Charity. Both must be safeguarded by the example and behavior of the brothers.”
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
This does not apply to the lay person reading this, but it may be useful. I always tell our brothers who are in formation that they are to remember that we must always be the least, not the greatest. St. Francis didn’t call his brothers the Lesser Brothers because he could not comde up with a more creative name. He had an idea in his mind.
When Jesus speaks of the final jugment, he refers to the “least of [his] brothers” They should be the beneficiaries of great charity. So Francis, who was an excellent exegete, understood that by being the least, one was also the beneficiary of charity.
Jesus also said that the “first shall be last and the last shall be first.” Again, Francis takes Jesus at his word and promote being last, among his sons and daughters. It was his hope that by becoming the last, we should be the first in the Kingdom of God.
Francis read the same message in the Beatitudes. The poor, humble and persecuted would be exulted. He encourages his brethren to take their place in that crowd.
Over the years, from 1209 when he founded the order to 1226 when he died, his theology evolved and it became known as a spirituality of kindness and nobility. Clare, her sisters, the brothers and the secular order became well known for their good manners. But their manners were not good, just because they were polite. Their manners were good because they were Evangelical. It was part of a greater effort to live according to the description on the Gospels of the simple and poor who are heirs to the Kingdom.
Even though most people on CAF are not bound by the rule and teachings of St. Francis, God gives us great saints to teach the entire Church, not just their religious family. In fact, the religious family is a model for all families and all communities, including the CAF family.
We have a very simple, but direct sentence in the Constitutions of the Franciscan Brothers of Life. “The brothers shall never engage in debates, disputes or conflicts for they cannot preach the Gospel of Life at the expense of the Gospel of Charity. Both must be safeguarded by the example and behavior of the brothers.”
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
F
Fidelis_Unus
Guest
maybe something like this ? :yawn: zzzzzzzzz’s
sadly, many of the less-than-kind comments are from other Catholics.
uch:I love the variety of perspectives and am often humbled by those who are not in the Church, but have learned a Grace that I lack or share a perspective that I do not have. I think we would miss out terribly if it were exclusive to Catholics. God is in all that is good and we are to look for Christ in everyone we meet. Sometimes, it’s a bit hard to see and I’m sure that the same is true for me at times.
I’m very grateful to have found this thread. Ah Teresa, yet another reason to say “Thanks”
W
whatevergirl
Guest
This is a most articulate and comforting thread to run across. Thank you JR for bringing this up. I had thought this myself at times, and I think we all need to keep praying for one another. I appreciate you taking the time to be charitable in this thread, as you bring to light some of these things.
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pnewton
Guest
He did a pretty cool job here, didn’t he!
I know one thing. Having a poster that consistently turns the other cheek and keeps his cool has helped me maintain civility more than a time or two.
L
Langdell
Guest
.
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Fidelis_Unus
Guest
Wonderful point! It’s like with raising kids. One daughter needs quick, strong, firm responses in order to even hear me, another daughter is so sensitive that a simply look can be very painful for her. Reacting the same way to both children would be sinful and doing either without Love would be simply punitive and not draw either of them nearer to the Truth that is God.He does so in a way that the thieves could understand, not because he hated them, but because he loved them. He wanted to change their hearts. He used a simple gesture that drove home the point clearly and succinctly.
That is how we must proclaim truth, simply and succinctly, in a manner that others will understand. Like Jesus, our actions must be rooted in love for the sinner, not in pride because “we are not like the rest of men.”
Please pray for my soul!
Br. JR, OSF
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Fidelis_Unus
Guest
Thank for your posting. Sanctifiable. This is very important, especially now when were are running commercials inviting Catholics to return to the faith. A campaign to encourage parishioners to understand the importance of being welcomed when people return could have been helpful.y biggest problem with our church is at some parishes you go to if you are new and single too you get the cold shoulder a lot. .
Most be are completely unaware of this and it was a huge issue in our Remembering Church program. I was a single Mom, devout Catholic for over a decade and experienced the same thing, time and time again. Very discouraging. We are not very welcoming and the social programs are for “famliies”. Often they are designed in such a way that two people are really needed to do all that it takes to “host” a gathering, and as a single Mom, already tired and overwhelmed, I just couldn’t do it. I think that the social structure has not changed to meet the needs of the congregation.
What I did was join a Bible study and a prayer group. Obviously, if you’re praying the rosary you’re doing some of this. I’m just sharing my experience here. I also began volunteering. Just little things like coordinating volunteers for the library, spending time at the library (again, meeting people). After a while, I would see people I knew that would smile and wave to me in Church, I began to feel more welcome. Not completely, but less separate. Then I got involved in Remembering Church specifically because of your experience. We need to do more and so many have little awareness of what it is like for single people, especially single parents. It would be great if others knew and could reach out more effectively, but ultimately it takes us stepping out of our comfort zone and getting involved.
It is very hard, but I have seen a trend of improvement. We still have a long way to go. no one cared when I left either, but my decision was to not let their lack of understanding keep me from finding ways to live out my faith.
Thank you for bringing up this issue. It is painful for many and so many Catholics are simply unaware and would feel horrible if they realized what others were experiencing. Many are simply unaware of how it feels and simply do not know that people are reaching out and grasping thin air or, perhaps worse, not even being seen.
God bless you. Stay with it and I pray you will find ways to participate and belong, as I was blessed to do.
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Fidelis_Unus
Guest
Someone else recommended this thread to me, but I have searched and searched to no avail.There is a similar thread on Moral theology section in case someone wants to add something there. It is called Snarkiness and (I forgot the other word).
Blessings
Do you, by any chance, have a link for it?
Thanks!
H
HisWill777
Guest
Excellent post JR. We can learn from the words you’ve written here.
B
Bailey2
Guest
Hi. It is gone. Just checked my own post history and it is gone there too. Can only mean it was pulled… must have gotten too snarky.Someone else recommended this thread to me, but I have searched and searched to no avail.
Do you, by any chance, have a link for it?
Thanks!
If it weren’t so sad, it would be funny really. Take care…
L
lufty
Guest
I am so happy to read this topic! I am grateful to ALL the folks here who have given me advice in this road I am treading, many of you have posted to my questions with your hearts and arms open, and welcomed me in my exploration into Christianity and the Catholic Church. God bless each and every one!
However, I have read disturbing posts, judgmental posts, even those condemning other Christians to no salvation based on their non-Catholic Church. All of this, when compared to the teachings of Christ I’ve read so far, is hard to read, and disappointing. I understand we are all human, but I feel that some charity, and foresight into thinking before speaking(or typing in this case) is always a good idea. Particularly when discussing theology publicly.
Again, thank you for this thread! You have made my day, and the disillusionment I was feeling earlier this morning is gone.
God bless you all!
Lufty
However, I have read disturbing posts, judgmental posts, even those condemning other Christians to no salvation based on their non-Catholic Church. All of this, when compared to the teachings of Christ I’ve read so far, is hard to read, and disappointing. I understand we are all human, but I feel that some charity, and foresight into thinking before speaking(or typing in this case) is always a good idea. Particularly when discussing theology publicly.
Again, thank you for this thread! You have made my day, and the disillusionment I was feeling earlier this morning is gone.
God bless you all!
Lufty
T
tbcrawford
Guest
I think it must have been removed as I cannot find it either.!!Someone else recommended this thread to me, but I have searched and searched to no avail.
Do you, by any chance, have a link for it?
Thanks!
There is yet another thread entitled ‘Discouraged’ on Family Life Forum by homerunbetty
Clearly many people are affected by this behaviour.It is so sad
and what does it make God feel?
T
tbcrawford
Guest
May God bless you lufty and I am sorry you felt disillusioned.There are many good and nice
people here too.I tend to usually stick to the Prayer Forum.I pray for the rude judgemental
people as how do you think they make God feel?
Your post highlights exactly the point about how we must be so careful how we represent the Catholic Church,Gods Church.
J
JReducation
Guest
I bolded the above. Many times people are unable to explain the Church’s teaching on this point while online. It’s very complicated. Sometimes, people don’t fully understand the Church’s teaching on this point and they post the statement, “no salvation outside the Church” and leave it at that. Then there are other people who are very stubborn and refuse to accept the fact that the Church herself teaches us that her words have deeper explanations, nuances and interpretations. These are often very literal in their faith. It is unfortunate, because you end up with a brand of Catholicism that is very much like Protestantism, literal interpretation with no room for further explanations I call it a Catholicism of the Book.
While it is important to know what is said and what has been written, it is also important to know the whole of it, not just part of it. Over the centuries, the Church has tried very hard to help Catholics and others understand her teachings by writing and commenting on her own teachings. She has often edited her words for greater clarity. And if we don’t look at those docments and actions as well as the original, we can walk away with a very concrete understanding of a point.
In this particular case the Church makes a clear distinction between the physical Catholic Church and the Mystical Body. Pope John Paul II was the last pope to try to explain the concept that truth, where ever it may be found, is grounded in the Catholic Church. In his decree, Ut Unum Sint, he speaks about the non Catholic Christians and in other places he spoke about other people: Jews, Muslims and so forth.
One of the points that he makes is that Christ, in his mercy, uses whatever truths are present in these faiths to save. How is this possible? Truth is truth. All truth subsists within the Catholic Church. Those truths that subsist within the Catholic Church and are found in other faiths are the link that connects the person to the Church. It’s an imperfect union, because one should want to live in the fullness of truth.
I would also suggest that you read in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Council Documents on Ecumenism, and Ut Unum Sint. With that reading, you should have a much better understanding of how salvation is made available to those who are physically outside of the Catholic Church.
The key is to avoid making these statements in such a black and white manner, because it can be very upsetting instead of helpful.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
S
simple_soul
Guest
Dear Br Jr,I bolded the above. Many times people are unable to explain the Church’s teaching on this point while online. It’s very complicated. Sometimes, people don’t fully understand the Church’s teaching on this point and they post the statement, “no salvation outside the Church” and leave it at that. Then there are other people who are very stubborn and refuse to accept the fact that the Church herself teaches us that her words have deeper explanations, nuances and interpretations. These are often very literal in their faith. It is unfortunate, because you end up with a brand of Catholicism that is very much like Protestantism, literal interpretation with no room for further explanations I call it a Catholicism of the Book.
While it is important to know what is said and what has been written, it is also important to know the whole of it, not just part of it. Over the centuries, the Church has tried very hard to help Catholics and others understand her teachings by writing and commenting on her own teachings. She has often edited her words for greater clarity. And if we don’t look at those docments and actions as well as the original, we can walk away with a very concrete understanding of a point.
In this particular case the Church makes a clear distinction between the physical Catholic Church and the Mystical Body. Pope John Paul II was the last pope to try to explain the concept that truth, where ever it may be found, is grounded in the Catholic Church. In his decree, Ut Unum Sint, he speaks about the non Catholic Christians and in other places he spoke about other people: Jews, Muslims and so forth.
One of the points that he makes is that Christ, in his mercy, uses whatever truths are present in these faiths to save. How is this possible? Truth is truth. All truth subsists within the Catholic Church. Those truths that subsist within the Catholic Church and are found in other faiths are the link that connects the person to the Church. It’s an imperfect union, because one should want to live in the fullness of truth.
I would also suggest that you read in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Council Documents on Ecumenism, and Ut Unum Sint. With that reading, you should have a much better understanding of how salvation is made available to those who are physically outside of the Catholic Church.
The key is to avoid making these statements in such a black and white manner, because it can be very upsetting instead of helpful.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Again thank you for these references and words of wisdom.
I do not want to take this too far off topic but this understanding has been bugging me for a while and I really do need to become more versed in this understanding. I was raised with the “black and white” interpretation of “no salvation outside of the Catholic Church” and if I would try to explain that Truth can be found in other people’s belief I would get accused of relativism. Is there any way you might be able to explain in more detail for me the difference between believing that Truth is truth were ever one may find it and how doing this does not reduce Truth to relativism? Any more insight you may have on this I believe would be most helpful. I personally do not see how it would but then I am not very educated in these matters.
In reference to your OP. It is my humble opinion that no we do not have to be rude. It is a free choice of our will and we will be held accountable for it.
J
JReducation
Guest
Well, we could go on with that topic forever, but I’ll just give you an example or two. Muslims believe that there is one God. We believe the same thing. This is truth. We can’t say that it’s not truth, just because a Muslim said it. They believe that God is creator and savior. We do too. That is also truth.
Jews believe that God is the God of Abraham. So do we. This is truth. They believe in the 10 Commandments. So do we. These are truths.
Orthodox Jews, Muslims and Catholics believe that life is sacred from the moment of conception. We cannot deny the truth in this. Jews root their faith in the faith of Abraham, so did Jesus.
Like this, there are many truths that are found outside of the physical Church, but they remain truths that subsist in the Church. I hope this helps.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
S
simple_soul
Guest
It does help me understand what I believe to be Truth.Well, we could go on with that topic forever, but I’ll just give you an example or two. Muslims believe that there is one God. We believe the same thing. This is truth. We can’t say that it’s not truth, just because a Muslim said it. They believe that God is creator and savior. We do too. That is also truth.
Jews believe that God is the God of Abraham. So do we. This is truth. They believe in the 10 Commandments. So do we. These are truths.
Orthodox Jews, Muslims and Catholics believe that life is sacred from the moment of conception. We cannot deny the truth in this. Jews root their faith in the faith of Abraham, so did Jesus.
Like this, there are many truths that are found outside of the physical Church, but they remain truths that subsist in the Church. I hope this helps.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Thank you.
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