Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[Attejohannes]

Jones,

The thief on the cross did a work…but that work was by grace, through Faith…

The Catholic Church teaches and has taught we are saved

by grace, through Faith, working in love, and these works are not of our own, for on our own we can do nothing…

If you and Luther believe you found something that was not there, then you did not look. This is and has been Catholic teaching.

Whatever works I do, are the result of the grace/help I have been given and are nothing more than God working through me…God loves me, He helps me, He wants me to please Him and He gives me the help I need to do whatever it is that is pleasing to Him because on my own I cannot.

You may want to look into the issue of indulgences as you understand them and the history of the indulgences as this appears to be a misunderstood item on your part.

I have understood an indulgence to be a relief of the pennance ordered to Catholics after the absolution, and that the Church interpretes that doctrin in such a way that the Church can provide relief also to the souls in Purgatory.

Which made Luther wonder, why - If the Pope has such a power - does he not immediately release the souls, and out of Christian love and charity, and without any monetary compensation.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have understood an indulgence to be a relief of the pennance ordered to Catholics after the absolution, and that the Church interpretes that doctrin in such a way that the Church can provide relief also to the souls in Purgatory.

Which made Luther wonder, why - If the Pope has such a power - does he not immediately release the souls, and out of Christian love and charity, and without any monetary compensation.

Jones,

I am sure you will get ample response to this. I will wait and see as I am not versed in this area however it may have to do with binding and loosing while on earth.

 

[Attejohannes]

Jones,

The thief on the cross did a work…but that work was by grace, through Faith…

The Catholic Church teaches and has taught we are saved

by grace, through Faith, working in love, and these works are not of our own, for on our own we can do nothing…

If you and Luther believe you found something that was not there, then you did not look. This is and has been Catholic teaching.

Whatever works I do, are the result of the grace/help I have been given and are nothing more than God working through me…God loves me, He helps me, He wants me to please Him and He gives me the help I need to do whatever it is that is pleasing to Him because on my own I cannot.

You may want to look into the issue of indulgences as you understand them and the history of the indulgences as this appears to be a misunderstood item on your part.

Well, give me your opinion of the Tridentine canons, 24 and 30.

Atte

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, give me your opinion of the Tridentine canons, 24 and 30.

Atte

Jones,

I am busy, provide a link.

 

[october_baby]

I have not read all the posts, so maybe this has been said already.

I do not think anyone wants the divides we now have…but we are also talking about THE most important issue of our lives. While no one wants the divides, I want even less to compromise our beliefs in order to have unity.

We are Catholic. We should always remember that. We should not change so others like us better.

THANK YOU!!

 

[cheezey]

Just a word of explanation. I am writing using an I-Pad, and a program, which tries to anticipate my words. If my writing contains strange words and idioms, don’t jump to conclusions like “this poor arch- Lutheran is now converting to Pentecostalism, and is speaking in tongues”

 

[PRmerger]

And If you asked any of the Infallible Tridentine fathers about asking an anathemized protestant to part for you, you would have received a very short and clear answer…

Anathemized Christians? Well, I don’t think I would ask one of them to pray for me. :nope:

 

[PRmerger]

As I have said earlier, you in the USA are apparently really faced by doctrinal chaos, and I have already expressed my own speculation of the reason for it, namely America being for centuries a refuge of oppressed and discriminated religious groups of Europe. This easily creates a hotbed for doctrinal diversication.

Irrelevant, Atte.

The fact that there is permission given to read the Bible, interpret it as one sees fit, and then become one’s own pope in discerning doctrine, is the fruit of Luther and the PR.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, thanks for regarding my prayers as something that might count. But I think you are drifting into a doctrinal error, since the Council of Trent (which I think you counted among the infallible ones) heaped so many anathemas over me and my kind, that if you asked the fathers of tha council, whether it is OK to ask or even to expect a protestant’s prayers and even to toy with an idea that they might have some effect, they would have looked at you either a joker, an idiot, or tainted by heresy yourself. Watch yourself!

I think you are operating under a misapprehension regarding how the Church views you, Atte.

If you had the fullness of the truth and you left, then you would fall into this category.

But at the time of the Council, there were no Protestants. Only Christians who had the fullness of truth, and then anathemized themselves by divorcing themselves from the truth delivered once for all to the saints. :bigyikes:

 

[PRmerger]

Appropos, the infallibility again. You are saying, or at least it sounds so, that if a person or institution, or a bench of bishops is right in one thing, then this person, institution etc. is infallible in everything.

Actually, I don’t want you to go there yet.

All I’ve done is point out to you that you actually do believe in the charism of infallibility. And that it has been given to the Catholic Church. On multiple occasions.

At least as it applies to the canon of Scripture.

We’ll get to the other infallible dogmas later.

And in addition to making you see that you believe that men, in their office, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, can indeed be infallible (something that is very, very hard to get Protestants to admit…until they become intellectually honest and engage in thoughtful dialogue with Catholics)…you also now see that you are not Sola Scriptura.

You believe something about Christianity based on something that’s not found from Genesis to Revelation: the canon of Scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

Regarding the doctrinal error. Well, PRmerger in his post wellcomed my prayers.

Actually, I am a she, not a he.

I am a protestant, cursed and anathemized zillion times by the infallible Council of Trent. And the anathema in those days meant something like this (but correct me if I am wrong):

You are wrong.

As already stated, there were no Protestants at the Council of Trent. Only Catholics who divorced themselves from the kerygma. That was anathema.

You have never known the fullness of truth, and this, as our Catechism says:

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” CCC 818

Does it make you uncomfortable to know that this is a teaching of the CC regarding you and yours?

It does seem as if you prefer to remain in your position of ignorance, believing, “The Catholic Church has declared me a heretic”, thus allowing you to have some righteous anger?

If you cannot be angry at the Church for this reason (and, I assure you, you cannot), then what’s another reason for you to be angry at the Church?

 

[Attejohannes]

Actually, I am a she, not a he.

You are wrong.

As already stated, there were no Protestants at the Council of Trent. Only Catholics who divorced themselves from the kerygma. That was anathema.

You have never known the fullness of truth, and this, as our Catechism says:

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” CCC 818

Does it make you uncomfortable to know that this is a teaching of the CC regarding you and yours?

It does seem as if you prefer to remain in your position of ignorance, believing, “The Catholic Church has declared me a heretic”, thus allowing you to have some righteous anger?

If you cannot be angry at the Church for this reason (and, I assure you, you cannot), then what’s another reason for you to be angry at the Church?

Dear Lady

My apologies, I called you " he" out of honest error…

That settled, some comments: I am not righteouly angry, sometimes intellectually indignant.

The articles of Trent clearly condemn persons, who hold and teach certain doctrins. It does not make a distinction between the first and second generation protestants and does not say a word of allowing for them a limited communion with the Church. Certain persons having certain opinions were anathemized, including me.

That the chatolic Church has backslided from this rigorism was the result of the fact that Protestantism simply did not fade away, and the Church had to accommodate with that.

Some years ago Lutherans and Catholics published a joint proclamation on justification. With rather convoluted sentences a possibility was rapisee that we actually have a same doctrin, which was just misunderstood during the Council of Trent, and thus there is a way to repeale the anathemas. I do not think much of that document.

Now to think tha the Infallible Council would first built a strawman and then heap on that a load of anathemas is quite a challenge to the doctrin of infallability.

You know my thoughts of that doctrin, but I respective the erudition and common sense of the fathers of Trent. They knew , what they cursed and what they blessed. And they cursed me.

In the earlier. centuries the Church would have condemned you for praying with a, say Novatian, and especially for asking his intercession, regardless whether the question was of a first, second or third generation Novatian.

My beliefs are Lutheran, as they were summarized in 16 th Century. You keep your Tridentine Catholizism fortified with three novel Dogmas that I do not share, which further dilutes our common Christian background. Doctrinally we have drifted even further apart, not approached each other.

I do not think that we should shout " viive la Difference", but we have to acknowledge that it is here to stay as far as human edes can discern.

 

[CopticChristian]

Dear Lady

My apologies, I called you " he" out of honest error…

That settled, some comments: I am not righteouly angry, sometimes intellectually indignant.

The articles of Trent clearly condemn persons, who hold and teach certain doctrins. It does not make a distinction between the first and second generation protestants and does not say a word of allowing for them a limited communion with the Church. Certain persons having certain opinions were anathemized, including me.

That the chatolic Church has backslided from this rigorism was the result of the fact that Protestantism simply did not fade away, and the Church had to accommodate with that.

Some years ago Lutherans and Catholics published a joint proclamation on justification. With rather convoluted sentences a possibility was rapisee that we actually have a same doctrin, which was just misunderstood during the Council of Trent, and thus there is a way to repeale the anathemas. I do not think much of that document.

Now to think tha the Infallible Council would first built a strawman and then heap on that a load of anathemas is quite a challenge to the doctrin of infallability.

You know my thoughts of that doctrin, but I respective the erudition and common sense of the fathers of Trent. They knew , what they cursed and what they blessed. And they cursed me.

In the earlier. centuries the Church would have condemned you for praying with a, say Novatian, and especially for asking his intercession, regardless whether the question was of a first, second or third generation Novatian.

My beliefs are Lutheran, as they were summarized in 16 th Century. You keep your Tridentine Catholizism fortified with three novel Dogmas that I do not share, which further dilutes our common Christian background. Doctrinally we have drifted even further apart, not approached each other.

I do not think that we should shout " viive la Difference", but we have to acknowledge that it is here to stay as far as human edes can discern.

Jones,

You are here to stay no question…it has only been 500 years and when you look at the numbers…

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,930640,00.html

Monday, Jan. 27, 1930

The Lutheran Church’s estimated world membership is 81 million souls. It is third in size to the Roman Catholic Church (estimated worldwide membership, 331,500,000; Orthodox Eastern Church, 144,000,000) among all Christian denominations.

in 80 years there has been a decline…

lutheranworld.org/lwf/

LWF in 2012 represents 70.4 million Christians…

That would mean that 80 years there has been a decline of Lutherans by 10 million. It means we may have to wait for 80 x 7 or another 560 years to see the Lutheran population dwindle to thousands….

So, it is Ok…just hang on…

 

[Attejohannes]

Jones,

You are here to stay no question…it has only been 500 years and when you look at the numbers…

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,930640,00.html

in 80 years there has been a decline…

lutheranworld.org/lwf/

LWF in 2012 represents 70.4 million Christians…

So, it is Ok…just hang on…

And If a culture of E. Coli bacteria, kept on multiplying at an exponential growth rate for 24 hours, it would cover the globe.

 

[CopticChristian]

And If a culture of E. Coli bacteria, kept on multiplying at an exponential growth rate for 24 hours, it would cover the globe.

Jones,

Are the E. Coli Lutheran?

 

[Attejohannes]

Jones,

Are the E. Coli Lutheran?

Procaryotic, actually

 

[Attejohannes]

Just to say something positive, or offer a suggestion how to proceed, If ( as it seems) the Christian unity is not within immediate perspectives.

I think Bible gives as some indication: in the epistle to Titus, Saint Paul days that we should avoid the heretics, after giving him a warning or two. I do not think that he ordered us to be generally uncivil, but avoid doctrinal discussions and disputes with these kinds of persons. Maybe this could be a compromise allowing us to clearly say what we think is true without engaging into debates.

Regarding how we should regard each other’s Faith and works, maybe the story in Mark 9: 38-41 could be useful. The disciple John disapproves that someone outside the circles of diciples performed exorcisms in Jesus’ name. Jesus was not bothered but said that If that man had done a powerful deed in Jesus’ name, he cannot be against Jesus.

 

[CopticChristian]

Just to say something positive, or offer a suggestion how to proceed, If ( as it seems) the Christian unity is not within immediate perspectives.

I think Bible gives as some indication: in the epistle to Titus, Saint Paul days that we should avoid the heretics, after giving him a warning or two. I do not think that he ordered us to be generally uncivil, but avoid doctrinal discussions and disputes with these kinds of persons. Maybe this could be a compromise allowing us to clearly say what we think is true without engaging into debates.

Regarding how we should regard each other’s Faith and works, maybe the story in Mark 9: 38-41 could be useful. The disciple John disapproves that someone outside the circles of diciples performed exorcisms in Jesus’ name. Jesus was not bothered but said that If that man had done a powerful deed in Jesus’ name, he cannot be against Jesus.

Jones,

Who decides who is the heretic?

Who decides as if Jesus was declaring what is done in His name?

 

[guanophore]

In an earlier post you questioned my motivation to write here. My motivation was to answer to the question, presented in the title of this thread "Do we really etc...?" My answer was that although we may not want to see that, we in all probability will see it.

I hope you don;t take that as a personal affront. I ask it to a lot of people.

It is a curious phenomena to me that people come to a Catholic forum to disagree with Catholicism.

This does not mean, of course, that I try to express my Lutheran viewpoint and its internal logic for you to understand why I think as I think and belive as I believe. I do not expect that you agree.

I appreciate your participation.

The point that we both agree is that we are separated, and no reformulation of phraseology or equivocal expressions can heal that. And that is going to last, I am afraid until the Second Coming.

Yes, I understand your point. However, I find you position contrary to Scripture, and the intentions of Jesus expressed within.

 I have not answered the many points you have raised, When we go to the doctrinal level, I think the discussion deteriorates very easily to argumentation.

It can, but not all debate is unproductvive. I can assure you that I have changed many of my ideas and attitudes through the process of theological argumentation here on CAF, and I know many other members that have as well. Perhaps you are not willing to examine or grapple with your own, for the benefite of changing any that might be erroneous, and that is your perogative, of course.

That kind of discussion seldom leads to a better undesrtanding of truth, but rather to both sides sticking even deeper into their doctrinal premises and the discussion becoming, intentionally or not, more hurtful than constructive.

I will respect that this is your personal experience. It is not shared by most of us on CAF. Most of us are open to a better understanding of truth, and we find that theological debate is constructive in that process.

We have to live with the situation and leave its solution to God’s hands.

In the end He prevails

I do agree that He does prevail. However we have a responsibility and an Aposotlic commandment to strive toward unity in mind and Spirit. We have a commandment to have no differences in doctrine. Since the differences in doctrine and the disunity that exists emanates from the pride of humans, we have an obligation to repair the damage. We are not at liberty to sit back and expect God to fix the mess we have made without our strident participation.

 

[guanophore]

Well, I think we agree. Catholic church cannot compromise its teachings. Neither can protestants repudiate their faith. Individual conversions occur, to both directions**, but that whole denominations would "repent" and reject their most precious techings for the sake of unity is not likely and I do not see it even as a positive thing. **   Unity is good but not on the sacrifice of what each side consider as inspired truth.

While there are entire congregations that do convert, such instances are rare. What about those is not positive? I agree with you that conversion is, and must be, individual, and that it must not compromise the individual’s sense of conscience.

So let us agree to stay amicably apart.

Yes and no. We can agree to be kind and courteous with regard to our differences, but we are not at liberty to ignore them, and Catholics are not at liberty to avoid working to overcome them. We are compelled by the Apostolic commandments and the prayers of Jesus to eliminate these.

It is better that the Unity that was upheld at the time of reformation, not with love and doctrinal reasoning, but force (as I have said before in one of my postings, jail and stake were the ways to treat the dissenters - among catholics and protestants alike)

Yes, following the law of love is better than all these human and insufficient methods of forcing conscience or compliance. Unity is achieved by adherance to the Truth. Disunity exists whenever departure from the Truth occurs. Certainly putting other people to torture or death is a departure from the Truth He taught.